Sox & Angels Talking; Crede/Garcia for Santana/Figgins

[YASNY]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/294010_mari29.html

 

Rotoworld:

 

The Mariners could attempt to reacquire Freddy Garcia from the White Sox, according to the Seattle Post-Intelligencer.

 

Seattle doesn't have the major league-ready center fielder the White Sox want -- Adam Jones is a fine prospect, but he's no better of a bet than Brian Anderson for next year -- and there's no way the club should give up Rafael Soriano for one year of Garcia. Unless the White Sox like Jeff Clement as a catcher of the future, we're not sure there's a match here.

[CanOfCorn]

Its not about the White Sox as a team, its about other teams. Did the Tigers overperform last year? Yes. But they are going to be a very good team next year. They added Sheffield, and their bullpen and SPing is extraordinarily deep. That doesnt include other teams like the Angels and Red Sox who figure to be upgraded as well.

And saying that the hitting was sporadic is misleading. We suffered no serious injuries last year and had career years from a number of our hitters. Our ability to produce runs might (and better) improve next year, but do we know that Thome, Dye or Crede (and his back) dont regress just a little? There were a lot of career years out there, only Pods, Anderson and Uribe really struggled and no one is expecting a huge jump in the production of any of those three.

 

 

Ozzie doesn't want to give up the home run hitting power, but he also wants this team to be able to produce when the middle of the order isn't hitting home runs. That's why I think Figgins would be a good pickup, because, outside of last year, he's a .350 OBP guy but you know what he can do that no one else on the Sox can do? BUNT! If he's given the chance to play every day, in one position, as the leadoff guy, I could see him being much better than Pods.

[shawnhillegas]

Ozzie doesn't want to give up the home run hitting power, but he also wants this team to be able to produce when the middle of the order isn't hitting home runs. That's why I think Figgins would be a good pickup, because, outside of last year, he's a .350 OBP guy but you know what he can do that no one else on the Sox can do? BUNT! If he's given the chance to play every day, in one position, as the leadoff guy, I could see him being much better than Pods.

 

 

I dont think that there is any question that he would be substantially better than Pods. The worst he can do is hit like Pods, but actually steal bases at an acceptable rate. Thats still a significant upgrade. And we wont even discuss fielding abilities.

Edited November 29, 2006 by shawnhillegas

[CWSGuy406]

If Joe Crede has another monster year like he had in 2006 -- or if he actually continues to improve by drawing more walks, which is the only thing holding him down offensively -- then he will actually have MORE trade value next offseason than this year. He's locked up for TWO more years, not one. And I don't buy the notion that teams will pay a lot more for having those two years because any team that wants to trade for him, like the Angels, will be able to pay the freight to extend his contract. Having a second year of better offensive production will be worth a LOT more than losing that one year of being tied up.

 

Crede has NEVER walked more than 35 times in a White Sox uniform. As a major leaguer, he's had over 2200 at-bats. What in God's name makes you think that, at 29 years old, Joe is going to become a more selective hitter at the plate? I actually believe in his 2006 numbers, despite the fact that he's never hit that well at the major league level, but Joe is never going to be a big OBP guy. If you get a .350 OBP season out of Joe, it's probably because he hit .320.

 

Since he'll never walk, he's never going to be an elite hitter. If his back holds up, I can see him putting up a couple of seasons similar to 2006, but I would wager that Joe will never top the .900 OPS mark for a single season.

 

Kenny Williams is totally correct when he says he doesn't have to do anything right now. The Angels should be the ones overpaying if they want Joe Crede a year ahead of schedule. I wasn't kidding when I said the deal should be Figgins + Santana (at least) for Crede.

 

Yeah, dude, three years of Chone Figgins and four years of Ervin Santana for two years of Joe Crede, and we're the ones getting screwed. You clearly have a real good understanding of the baseball market.

 

They would be getting one of the best 3B in baseball -- a gamer who was perhaps our most important postseason asset in 2005. Meanwhile, Chone Figgins was non-existant in the 2005 ALCS, and then went downhill from there in 2006. I don't consider him to be of any real value in a trade. He's Scott Podsednik with a better success rate on SBs.

 

Awesome. Now you resort to the 2005 post-season. I think I remember Scott Podsednik hitting a homer in some series. That was real neat...

 

Now, as for the pitchers. I would take Freddy Garcia over Ervin Santana next season. Call me crazy if you want, but these are Freddy's career totals:

 

You're f***ing crazy.

 

What you can see from this is that Freddy has had a blip in the road before -- in 2003, when his ERA was very much like what it was last year. Yet Freddy came back strong from that to post two of the best seasons of his career. I expect Freddy will bounce back again next season and beyond.

 

And what's the difference? 'Back in the day', Freddy had a fastball that topped 90 MPH.

 

And I wouldn't at all be surprised if Freddy pitches as well or better than Ervin Santana over the next 5 years.

 

Did I say you're crazy? You're nuts. So, Freddy Garcia's age 30-35 seasons are going to be better than Ervin Santana's age 23-28 seasons? Am I allowed to wager my parents' mortgage on the house?

 

However, if the object is to get to and win another World Series, I'm not sure it helps us even marginally. Santana might not be nearly as good of a pitcher if he called the Cell his home.

 

Look at Santana's home and away splits over his two years:

 

Away 6.46 9 11 0 0 25 25 0 134.2 150 101 96 23 54 100 .284

Home 3.09 19 5 0 0 31 31 1 204.0 170 78 70 15 63 140 .228

 

He's 9-11 on the road, with a 6.46 ERA. But in Anaheim, he pitches magnificently. I don't trust a pitcher with that kind of split coming to a HR ballpark as his home field.

 

Yeah. Santana is definitely a true talent 6+ ERA pitcher. Ignore the fact that he's thrown a whole 130 innings, less than a whole season, on the road. Also, totally ignore his 3.09 ERA at home. Sure, LA is a pitcher's park, but that takes some real skills to put up those numbers at home.

 

Please -- when you are able to prove that 135 innings of splits have ANY significance at all going forward, let me know. Please do.

 

Oh, and I forgot you're apparent rule that young pitchers don't improve. I mean, most 23 year old pitchers are tossing 200+ innings of a 102 ERA+, right?

 

My bottom line is this: Keep Crede for another year. Make an attempt to sign him next offseason, and if it doesn't go, trade him then.

 

WTF do you think Williams has been doing THIS winter? Twidling his f***ing thumbs?

Edited November 29, 2006 by CWSGuy406

[LosMediasBlancas]

Any update on this? I won't read 27 pages.

[daa84]

Any update on this? I won't read 27 pages.

nothin

[WhiteSoxfan1986]

Some people need to realize that Crede had a career year last year, he could easily go back to hitting .250 next year. I don't think that will happend, but he's not a lock to have a year like 2006 the next couple of years.

[GreatScott82]

The Crede, Garcia for Figgins and Santana rumor must be pretty legit since it is posted on the MLB website:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article...6&fext=.jsp

 

As far as Seattle being interested in re-aqcuirering Freddy... Sorry!! You have nothing we want. Unless you are willing to trade King Felix or Ichiru just dont even pick up the phone.

 

It looks like more and more teams are going after Freddy. This can only increase our return package....

I say the Angel-Sox trade happens right before the winter meetings as a nice orderve before he heats up the hot stove and makes our team even stronger.

Example:

1. White Sox aqcuire Figgins and Santana + one of their relievers (Shields or Donnelly) from LA Angels for Crede and Garcia.

2. White Sox aqcuire Crawford from Tampa Bay for McCarthy and a top prospect.

 

If this happens which i think it could, KW should officially become the Mayor of Chicago.

 

Can you guys imagine a lineup like this:

Figgins 3B

Crawford CF (trade BA to Florida for pitching prospects)

Dye RF

Thome DH

Konerko 1B

Iguchi 2B

Pierzynski C

Uribe SS

Podsednick LF

 

call me crazy, but he would make a great 9th place hitter, not to mention provide an awesome 9,1,2 speedy punch with him, figgins and crawford. Think about it you would have 3 guys who can all possibly steal 50+ bases. Isn't that would Ozzie is looking for?!? Yea our defense wouldn't be as sharp, but our run production will go up tremendously.

 

As for as the pitching rotation it would be:

Buerhle, Garland, Contreras, Santana and Vazquez which is still a very very good rotation!

 

Bullpen: Jenks, Thorton, MacDougle, Shields or Donnelly, Aardsma, Haegar.

 

JUST DO IT KW!!!

[shawnhillegas]

The Crede, Garcia for Figgins and Santana rumor must be pretty legit since it is posted on the MLB website:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article...6&fext=.jsp

 

As far as Seattle being interested in re-aqcuirering Freddy... Sorry!! You have nothing we want. Unless you are willing to trade King Felix or Ichiru just dont even pick up the phone.

 

It looks like more and more teams are going after Freddy. This can only increase our return package....

I say the Angel-Sox trade happens right before the winter meetings as a nice orderve before he heats up the hot stove and makes our team even stronger.

Example:

1. White Sox aqcuire Figgins and Santana + one of their relievers (Shields or Donnelly) from LA Angels for Crede and Garcia.

2. White Sox aqcuire Crawford from Tampa Bay for McCarthy and a top prospect.

 

If this happens which i think it could, KW should officially become the Mayor of Chicago.

 

Can you guys imagine a lineup like this:

Figgins 3B

Crawford CF (trade BA to Florida for pitching prospects)

Dye RF

Thome DH

Konerko 1B

Iguchi 2B

Pierzynski C

Uribe SS

Podsednick LF

 

call me crazy, but he would make a great 9th place hitter, not to mention provide an awesome 9,1,2 speedy punch with him, figgins and crawford. Think about it you would have 3 guys who can all possibly steal 50+ bases. Isn't that would Ozzie is looking for?!? Yea our defense wouldn't be as sharp, but our run production will go up tremendously.

 

As for as the pitching rotation it would be:

Buerhle, Garland, Contreras, Santana and Vazquez which is still a very very good rotation!

 

Bullpen: Jenks, Thorton, MacDougle, Shields or Donnelly, Aardsma, Haegar.

 

JUST DO IT KW!!!

 

 

There is no way in a trillion years that the Sox get Santana, Figgins and Shields for Crede and Garcia. But it would be nice....

[RockRaines]

There is no way in a trillion years that the Sox get Santana, Figgins and Shields for Crede and Garcia. But it would be nice....

Plus there is no way in hell that Figgins plays 3B and Crawford plays CF. Figgins would play CF and Crawford LF

[WCSox]

And I wouldn't at all be surprised if Freddy pitches as well or better than Ervin Santana over the next 5 years.

 

That might be the most ridiculous statement I've ever read here.

[Harry Chappas]

There is no way in a trillion years that the Sox get Santana, Figgins and Shields for Crede and Garcia. But it would be nice....

 

It would be for Crede, Garcia and McCarthy it that scenario.

[RockRaines]

It would be for Crede, Garcia and McCarthy it that scenario.

Shields isnt worth BMAC, so not it wouldnt.

[Felix]

Riiiiiiight. They are going to want TWO former Mariners. They pretty much dumped Thornton. NOt a chance they take that. If that happens I'll eat my hat.

All 3 of them are former Mariners actually

[jackie hayes]

It would be for Crede, Garcia and McCarthy it that scenario.

No, read the post.

[SoxHawk1980]

Quick comment. I've read several posts in this thread talking about how Crede had a "moster year" "career year" etc. Have you actually looked at the stats? It was a good year, but not a great year. There were times where he was great. And there were extended stretches where he was bad. Overall it made for a good season. That's all.

 

I hate it when fans remember a player's good play and conveniently forget when he was horrible.

 

Let's look at the overall numbers.

 

.323 OBP - not impressive

.506 SLG - good

.828 OPS - pretty good. Certainly not great.

 

Let us not pretend that Crede has EVER had a great season. He hasn't. Will he get better? If so, how much? The answers to these questions is not obvious.

[DBAHO]

So as for Seattle being interested in Freddy, how does a Lopez, Clement and Soriano deal for Garcia sound?

 

EDIT: I'm prob askin for too much there. We may have to give up a SP spect like Wes Whisler in return as well.

[jackie hayes]

Quick comment. I've read several posts in this thread talking about how Crede had a "moster year" "career year" etc. Have you actually looked at the stats? It was a good year, but not a great year. There were times where he was great. And there were extended stretches where he was bad. Overall it made for a good season. That's all.

 

I hate it when fans remember a player's good play and conveniently forget when he was horrible.

 

Let's look at the overall numbers.

 

.323 OBP - not impressive

.506 SLG - good

.828 OPS - pretty good. Certainly not great.

 

Let us not pretend that Crede has EVER had a great season. He hasn't. Will he get better? If so, how much? The answers to these questions is not obvious.

Not great...with the bat. Quite good, but not great. But he was great in the field.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Nov 29, 2006 -> 04:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quick comment. I've read several posts in this thread talking about how Crede had a "moster year" "career year" etc. Have you actually looked at the stats? It was a good year, but not a great year. There were times where he was great. And there were extended stretches where he was bad. Overall it made for a good season. That's all.

 

I hate it when fans remember a player's good play and conveniently forget when he was horrible.

 

Let's look at the overall numbers.

 

.323 OBP - not impressive

.506 SLG - good

.828 OPS - pretty good. Certainly not great.

 

Let us not pretend that Crede has EVER had a great season. He hasn't. Will he get better? If so, how much? The answers to these questions is not obvious.

Yeah but he won the silver slugger award!!!! VAfan, I have already shown you Crede's walk rate is decreasing BIG TIME, so it's silly to expect him to suddenly start walking at an above average rate.

 

Crede amongst qualified third basemen:

OBP: 20/22

SLG: 8/22

OPS: 9/22

[RockRaines]

Yeah but he won the silver slugger award!!!! VAfan, I have already shown you Crede's walk rate is decreasing BIG TIME, so it's silly to expect him to suddenly start walking at an above average rate.

 

Crede amongst qualified third basemen:

OBP: 20/22

SLG: 8/22

OPS: 9/22

His K rate has decreased as well, so what does that mean?

 

Regardless of all the offensive stats you can put up, he is the best defensive 3B in the MLB, and with some power and a good avg, it makes him valuable.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Nov 29, 2006 -> 04:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

His K rate has decreased as well, so what does that mean?

 

Regardless of all the offensive stats you can put up, he is the best defensive 3B in the MLB, and with some power and a good avg, it makes him valuable.

It means he's still popping the first pitch up.

 

I agree with everything else you said, as long as we are basing it off of the 2006 season, and he is a very valuable trading chip.

[iamshack]

His K rate has decreased as well, so what does that mean?

 

Regardless of all the offensive stats you can put up, he is the best defensive 3B in the MLB, and with some power and a good avg, it makes him valuable.

 

Not so sure if he is the best. Maybe one of them...

[RockRaines]

Not so sure if he is the best. Maybe one of them...

I disagree, I believe he is the best. There is no doubt in my mind he should have won the GG this year in the AL, and watching him in person, he makes everything look very easy. If we deal him, you guys will see what it is like to be spoiled by a GG player at the hot corner.

[whitesox61382]

I think it would be a step sideways if the Sox turned around and used either Santana or BMac to get Crawford. I am a huge Crawford fan, and he might be the best bargain in baseball given the contracts that other potential leadoff hitters are getting this offseason, but you win championships with pitching. Santana and BMac would be a great foundation to build around considering that they both have good stuff with SOME major league success, they are both young, years away from FA, and will be relatively cheap over the next couple of seasons(allowing the Sox to spend money to address other weaknesses). Besides, if the Sox get Figgins as well that essentially addresses the LF(or CF) and leadoff hitter need. Now if the Sox were to get Cabrera(hope not) or one of their relievers instead of Figgins, than I think Crawford might be a reasonable option, but not at the cost of either Santana or BMac(which is obviously what TB would want). Also, I seriously hope that the Sox don't intend on playing Figgins at 3rd if they do get him. He was an absolute butcher last season. I am curious to see which GM thinks they are getting the raw end of the purposed deal since the reports are that other players would be involved. I personally think the deal slightly favors the Sox, and most Angel fans HATE(not a strong enough word) the deal and would call for their GM's head if he made the deal.

[beck72]

I still think if the sox somehow get Santana they'll move him in a package for Crawford. Was it Levine who mentioned the sox were in talks with the Drays?