Sox & Angels Talking; Crede/Garcia for Santana/Figgins

[ptatc]

Wins mean less when your team has to score 6 and 7 runs to get you those 17 wins. But I guess that is ok since Freddy was better when it really matter in September. He owned the Angels in September.

 

Who cares when he wins them? As long as you pitch well enough to win. Last time I checked the team with the most wins make the playoffs and go on to the World Series. While he didn't have a great year he definately "fooled" enough people to win games.

[santo=dorf]

CWSguy, here is what I was talking about:

QUOTE(WCSox @ Nov 17, 2006 -> 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, absolutely. I just don't see why the Angels would give up a young, cheap pitcher with electric stuff for one year of a past-his-prime Freddy at $10 million. The only thing I can think of is that they consider Santana a huge injury risk. IIRC, he had elbow surgery when he was in the minors and his small frame may not be able to support an arm that throws in the mid-90's. That may explain why they shopped him for Crawford and why the D-Rays rejected the offer.

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

Who cares when he wins them? As long as you pitch well enough to win. Last time I checked the team with the most wins make the playoffs and go on to the World Series. While he didn't have a great year he definately "fooled" enough people to win games.

 

 

If that is the case, he needed to fool some hitters better, not relying on offense so much. I really have trouble believing that people are kicking and screaming about trading Freddy when, he is a year away from walking and getting a raise, his velocity dropped considerably, he b****ed about not getting enough run support and threw teamates under the bus for poor defense, yet people are sainting him as an untouchable.

[CWSGuy406]

CWSguy, here is what I was talking about:

 

Awesome, one random poster who isn't even 100% sure.

[ptatc]

If that is the case, he needed to fool some hitters better, not relying on offense so much. I really have trouble believing that people are kicking and screaming about trading Freddy when, he is a year away from walking and getting a raise, his velocity dropped considerably, he b****ed about not getting enough run support and threw teamates under the bus for poor defense, yet people are sainting him as an untouchable.

 

I don't think most people say he is untouchable as a matter of fact he is the one I would trade because of the impending free agency. If anything most people seems to blast and undervalue him during these discussions.

Edited November 28, 2006 by ptatc

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

I don't think most people say he is untouchable as a matter of fact he is the one I would trade because of the impending free agency. If anything most people seems to blast and undervalue him during these discussions.

 

I would agree that he is undervalued, though I think that is because people think he is only going to get worse. The reason might be that most pitchers don't recover velocity once it dips that much.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Nov 27, 2006 -> 08:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Awesome, one random poster who isn't even 100% sure.

In 2004 he was shut down on July 15th for a strained right elbow.

The Angels also prevented Santana from pitching this winter.

 

To be honest, and KW shares this opinion as well, I rather have the guy who had the srugery rather than the guy fighting through it. I remember when he said something about "going through the road" when picking up Jenks.

 

Ervin Santana-S- Angels Aug. 14 - 7:44 am et

 

 

Angels' prospect Ervin Santana will sit out the remainder of the minor-league season.

 

Santana will try to get back on the mound when Instructional league play begins September 16th. Santana was 2-1 with a 3.30 ERA in eight starts for Double-A Arkansas when he was put on the DL with elbow tendinitis, something that had bothered him during spring training. During his rehab, Santana injured his hamstring and Angels director of player development Tony Reagins decided to shut down Santana for the season. Santana is one of the better pitching prospects in the minor leagues, so expect Anaheim to be very careful with their young starter.

Edited November 28, 2006 by santo=dorf

[elrockinMT]

Let's hope this is more hogwash and we keep Joe and Freddie

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Nov 27, 2006 -> 08:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven't seen any evidence of shoulder problems for the last two years. So because he was shut down on July 15th of 2004, will he always be "injury risk?"

He had shoulder tendenitis before in ST, and injured his hamstring during his rehab. The Angels also don't want him playing winter ball, and despites his wishes, he did not pitch in the WBC.

 

I'm not trying to say he should be pitching for the Cubs, but let's not pencil him in for a Cy Young and 22 wins just yet. He isn't Johan Santana anymore.

 

Ervin Santana-S- Angels Mar. 23 - 2:37 pm et

 

 

Angels prospect Johan Santana's real name is Ervin Santana and he's nearly a year older than originally believed.

 

Santana was born Jan. 10, 1983, not Nov. 28, 1983. At least the name change will make things less confusing if Santana reaches the majors. The Dominican right-hander certainly has good chance of doing so, though he is a couple of years away.

Source: Los Angeles Times

[Gregory Pratt]

Lopsided though the deal was when someone suggested Santana + prospect for Freddy in our favor, Freddy + Crede for Santana and Figgins seems lopsided in their favor, especially given how desperate they are for a powerful third baseman.

 

If we've got no better offers, I take Crede + Garcia for Figgins and Santana, but you've got to work hard to milk it for more. Scot Shields? Then flip him somewhere? Wonder, too, if we could pry away a better, additional pitching prospect for Crede + Garland so that we get Santana, Figgins and stud pitching prospect. Though I imagine that the Angels believe Freddy to be a better starter, as I think he (clearly) is.

[southsideirish71]

He had shoulder tendenitis before in ST, and injured his hamstring during his rehab. The Angels also don't want him playing winter ball, and despites his wishes, he did not pitch in the WBC.

 

I'm not trying to say he should be pitching for the Cubs, but let's not pencil him in for a Cy Young and 22 wins just yet. He isn't Johan Santana anymore.

 

I am not saying he is an injury risk or will be pain free for his career, but I wouldnt take too much weight into restrictions that organizations put on young power arms with offseason work, and extra work that can take a long term affect on their arms. Some teams put restrictions on breaking pitches in the minors that skews their numbers even more. Danks is one that they dont let him throw his power curve too much, for fear of stress on his young arm.

[mr_genius]

pitching prospect for Crede + Garland so that we get Santana, Figgins and stud pitching prospect. Though I imagine that the Angels believe Freddy to be a better starter, as I think he (clearly) is.

 

 

We would need a top notch MLB starter if Garland is involved in a trade. Garland pretty much held down the rotation last year.

[Pants Rowland]

Call me silly and sentimental, but I have trouble trading away two players with rings. I understand the logic behind the many reasons of trading Freddy and Joe. However, both of these guys stepped up huge on the biggest stage in baseball. With that noted, I do agree that Freddy needs to be moved for multiple reasons. However, I also think the White Sox should do everything possible to retain Crede.

 

Joe was clearly the MVP of the 2005 postseason for the Sox. I think he deserved the Series MVP for his combined defense and offense. He does not have the monster numbers and statistics but he can take over a game with his defense and break hearts with his late game heroics, not matter if he was 0-fer with 3 strikeouts going into the bottom of the ninth. He is of the Paul O'Neill/Scott Brosius/Tino Martinez mold. The numbers are not necessarily going to dazzle you during trade talks, but the guy is a proven winner.

 

I keep hearing about his back but I will take Joe with a full back and neck brace over other flashy names like that stooge on the northside who just held the Cubs up for more money he doesn't deserve.

 

Joe is a winner, plain and simple.

 

 

We would need a top notch MLB starter if Garland is involved in a trade. Garland pretty much held down the rotation last year.

 

I heard JG was not marketable enough for SoCal.

[CWSGuy406]

I am not saying he is an injury risk or will be pain free for his career, but I wouldnt take too much weight into restrictions that organizations put on young power arms with offseason work, and extra work that can take a long term affect on their arms. Some teams put restrictions on breaking pitches in the minors that skews their numbers even more. Danks is one that they dont let him throw his power curve too much, for fear of stress on his young arm.

 

Yeah. Santana just got done pitching 200+ innings for the first time in his young professional baseball career. Sending him to winterball would've been quite crazy and very stupid.

 

Joe is a winner, plain and simple.

 

Rex Hudler will love him then. Rex Hudler loves winners.

[DBAHO]

Saunders for Garcia would be an absolutely brutal move by the Sox.

You probably know him better than I do Jason.

 

And he did take some lumps at the major league level last season.

 

But he also had some very nice starts, and although I know he doesn't have the greatest stuff, a young lefty that you could control for about 5 season who could putup an ERA around the 4-4.5 mark for you, appeals to me.

 

Of course I'd rather John Danks.

[Pants Rowland]

Rex Hudler will love him then. Rex Hudler loves winners.

 

I have not hung out with Rex in ages. Please explain.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(mr_genius @ Nov 27, 2006 -> 08:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Garland pretty much held down the rotation last year.

False.

 

His ERA wasn't south of 5.00 until July. He had a great stretch from the Very end of June to early August. Had a terrible outing, and pitched well until the end of August.

 

From Jun 30th to September 14th, he had 3 bad starts out of 13.

 

Contreras had a much better run from the beginning of the season to June 16th. 2 Bad starts out of 11

 

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Nov 27, 2006 -> 09:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah. Santana just got done pitching 200+ innings for the first time in his young professional baseball career. Sending him to winterball would've been quite crazy and very stupid.

Rex Hudler will love him then. Rex Hudler loves winners.

They refused to let him pitch in winter ball last season as well.

 

So by my count, since you asked for it, I have;

Shoulder Tendinitis in Spring Training 2004, didn't pitch until mid-May

Elbow Tendinitis weeks later

shut down after hurting hamstring during rehab in July of 2004

Angels refused to let him pitch in winter ball after the 2005 season (After 144 innings)

Angels refused to let him pitch in the WBC after the 2005 season (After 144 innings)

Angels refused to let him pitch in winter ball after the 2006 season

 

So obviously there should be some concerns over his health, and the Angels know it.

[mr_genius]

False.

 

 

i'm not goint to get into a "who's better argument" between Garland and Count.

[peanut33tillman]

How so? Joe Crede is one of the best 3B in the game right now, Figgins is barely a starter and is a slight upgrade over PODS. Santana and Garcia could be deemed a wash. If you can turn Santana into Crawford however, then we are winners.

 

Rock I usually agree with what you say but here you're TERRIBLY OFF. Santana is a VERY good, YOUNG pitcher and is miles better than Freddy and the upside this kid has is out of this world, believe me Ervin Santana will be a very good pitcher when his career is all said and done, Freddy for Santana is by no means "just a wash" I just hate losin Crede

[santo=dorf]

Santana @ ballparks in the AL Central (just for fun):

6 GS, 24.1 IP, 1-3, 8.14 ERA, 1.93 WHIP

[Gregory Pratt]

i'm not goint to get into a "who's better argument" between Garland and Count.

 

Well, good, because Contreras has undeniably better stuff and, IMO, a better track record. Shame he's so old otherwise it be no-contest. f***ing Fidel Castro and his hostage-holding of Cuban ballplayers.

 

I read somewhere, in a newspaper, that Contreras worked with Freddy on his splitter.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

If deal is being discussed it wont happen.

[CWSGuy406]

Angels refused to let him pitch in winter ball after the 2005 season (After 144 innings)

Angels refused to let him pitch in the WBC after the 2005 season (After 144 innings)

Angels refused to let him pitch in winter ball after the 2006 season

 

So what? What would be the point of letting him pitch in ANY of these? After his 2005 season, he had just got done completing ~190 innings. That was 40 more than his previous high. What would be the point of sending him to pitch in winter ball? Ditto the WBC? I'm not certain, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't the only one held out of the WBC for precautionary reasons.

 

McCarthy, to my knowledge, is not pitching in the winter leagues. Does that mean he's injured, too?

 

Santana @ ballparks in the AL Central (just for fun):

6 GS, 24.1 IP, 1-3, 8.14 ERA, 1.93 WHIP

 

Santo, can you find for me Santana's numbers when he pitches on Mondays of months that start with the letter 'J'? I'm just wanting some more obscure and pointless sample sizes to work with here...

[Dick Allen]

Too bad the White Sox weren't as prudent as the Angels and not allowed Freddy to pitch in the WBC. That seems to be what they are blaming his lost velocity on. Will the fastball come back? That is the $40 million question.

[SABR Sox]

Santana @ ballparks in the AL Central (just for fun):

6 GS, 24.1 IP, 1-3, 8.14 ERA, 1.93 WHIP

 

24.1 IP's.............