Sox & Angels Talking; Crede/Garcia for Santana/Figgins

[KevHead0881]

The market does absolutely suck, but it doesn't mean other AL teams aren't improving themselves. We have a very short window to legitimately compete for the world championship, and so many of the moves that are being proposed make us significantly worse for this upcoming season.

 

I basically agree with you. I just assume we stay away from the free agent market though. Teams are improving themselves, but not by much. I really can't say I'm that much more concerned about Detroit, Minnesota, Anaheim, New York, Boston, etc. then I was last year.

 

The reason that its a s***ty market isn't entirely because of the amounts of money being thrown around. It has a lot to do with the lack of players that will take your team to the next level. The biggest moves in the AL this offseason, at least in terms of dollars are Gary Matthews Jr., J.D. Drew and Matsawhatever. The one who could have had the biggest impact has never pitched in the big leagues. It seriously doesn't bother me that we wouldn't even make a bid on these players.

 

I'm all for throwing a ton of money at a player that we need to have, but those guys simply weren't available through free agency, or at the very least, anywhere near a reasonable price. The trade route is the way to go, and if there was a way to trade a Joe Crede that would make us better, then I'm all for it. But unfortunately, as you said, many of the proposed deals out there are far from enticing.

 

Kenny sarcastically asks for suggestions in this article, and I wish I had some. As you say, there is a window of opportunity here, and I just assume we keep our core guys during that window. But if the right deal came along, at the risk of losing Joe for nothing, you'd have to listen to it. Here's hoping that Kenny doesn't think this particular one is the right deal.

[witesoxfan]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think we control Crede through 2008...?

 

Ya, and I'm in complete agreement with KevHead. I don't think there's any chance that Crede resigns with the White Sox unless he has a sudden change of heart and cares more about staying in Chicago than about getting the fattest contract he can. The Sox would dish out the money, but they're not going to give 6/$84, which is probably what Crede would be asking for and could possibly get beyond 2008, given the market dying a little bit and him still playing at his 2006 level. If the market gets crazier and demand raises (somehow, someway), I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see him at around $16-17 mill a year.

[103 mph screwball]

KW's comments aside, I'm still happy to have a new rumor to think about. There would have to be a prospect coming to the Sox in a Crede Garcia for Santana and Figgins. All of the talk about how the Sox will not be able to afford Crede shows how valuable he would be to the Angels. I too would be kind of sad to lose guys from 2005, but if no extension is possible and KW feels he can improve the team then I'd accept it.

 

What has me very intrigued is the money the Sox would be saving in this rumored trade. KW would have another 10 million to spend and I do think he will be allowed to spend it. He may wait until the trade deadline, but that hasn't been his style. He could use it for pieces like Bradford or Zaun, or he could be wheeling and dealing for Manny or AROD. You have to consider the cash in a deal like this. Getting Santana, Figgins, and a prospect for Crede and Freddie may or may not excite you. But if the Sox use the cash and end up with Santana, Figgins, Bradford, Zaun, prospect, and cash left over for scouting, that makes the Sox much improved in my opinion. That is the type of deal (Lee for Pods/Viz/Iguchi/AJ/part of El Duque) that can solidify a championship team. How would you spend the 10 million?

 

Ahhh! Hot stove keeps me warm in the winter.

[Flash Tizzle]

I'm utterly convinced now, more than ever, Crede will be traded this offseason.

 

Doesn't he impending FA (two seasons from now, mind you) seem to be present a bit of awkwardness for both parties? Will Crede act the same way towards Williams knowing his general manager is unwilling to discuss negotiations with Boras? Hell, will he act the same way on the field or towards his teammates? He certaintly may not -- being the class act he is -- but I don't like the various issues which may arise.

 

Imagine Soxfest. Do you think he'd be willing to sit through three days of answering questions about his contract? It's going to be an issue for two more seasons, and I just can't imagine Williams putting Crede or the team through it.

[greg775]

When we trade Joe we need more than a Figgins.

We need to steal some great players.

Crede and Freddie need to bring a lot.

It must be nice when we can bag on a guy who had the record

of Freddie this past year.

[Frank the Tank 35]

Flash, please indulge me as to how we'd be able to get MCab while the Angels, certainly more prospect equipped than us, would settle for Crede. I'm not patronizing, I'm just curious. Believe me, any deal for MCab, far-fetched as it may be, gets my attention. Outside of Pujols, who will never be available, I think MCab is quickly growing into the best hitter in the league. Is it your opinion that the Angels lack the OF prospect depth to accommodate the Marlins' needs? That seems like a rather easy hurdle. Or is it that Stoneman refuses to "overpay" with the necessary talent? Can you envision this scenario (and I know I'm indulging something like a fantasy)?:

 

Crede+Garcia for Santana+Figgins+Mathis(or whomever)

Vaz for Milledge+Heilman(or prospect)

Milledge+Fields+Anderson(or Sweeney)(+Broadway?) for MCab

 

It would leave us short on the minor league pitching depth (like we currently are), but Heilman or Haeger could be emergency starters. It also kinda leaves us in a bind regarding Dye's expiring contract, but there will probably be a nice selection of OFers available next offseason. So if we sign Jose Guillen (with either Anderson or Sweeney splitting time to stave off his injuries), we could have a team like:

 

Figgins

Iguchi

MCab

Dye

Thome

Konerko

AJ

Guillen

Uribe

 

Buerhle

Contreras

Santana

Garland

BMac

 

Haeger

Aardsma

Heilman

MacD

Thornton

Jenks

 

Sweeney/Anderson

Mathis

Mack/Ozuna

Gload

Cintron

 

Yeah, that's too perfect to happen. Marlins might want more, perhaps a 1B since Jacobs was a dud last year. Gload probably wouldn't be good enough, maybe we'd have to try to get Kotchman from the Angels too. We'd only have to be concerned with resigning Mark to keep the rotation intact after '07. We wouldn't be improving our minor leagues (which would be pretty barren), but our major league club would be younger and improved. That certainly looks like a WS team to me.

 

Alright, back to reality...

[Flash Tizzle]

Flash, please indulge me as to how we'd be able to get MCab while the Angels, certainly more prospect equipped than us, would settle for Crede. I'm not patronizing, I'm just curious. Believe me, any deal for MCab, far-fetched as it may be, gets my attention. Outside of Pujols, who will never be available, I think MCab is quickly growing into the best hitter in the league. Is it your opinion that the Angels lack the OF prospect depth to accommodate the Marlins' needs? That seems like a rather easy hurdle. Or is it that Stoneman refuses to "overpay" with the necessary talent? Can you envision this scenario (and I know I'm indulging something like a fantasy)?:

 

Crede+Garcia for Santana+Figgins+Mathis(or whomever)

Vaz for Milledge+Heilman(or prospect)

Milledge+Fields+Anderson(or Sweeney)(+Broadway?) for MCab

 

It would leave us short on the minor league pitching depth (like we currently are), but Heilman or Haeger could be emergency starters. It also kinda leaves us in a bind regarding Dye's expiring contract, but there will probably be a nice selection of OFers available next offseason. So if we sign Jose Guillen (with either Anderson or Sweeney splitting time to stave off his injuries), we could have a team like:

 

Yeah, that's too perfect to happen. Marlins might want more, perhaps a 1B since Jacobs was a dud last year. Gload probably wouldn't be good enough, maybe we'd have to try to get Kotchman from the Angels too. We'd only have to be concerned with resigning Mark to keep the rotation intact after '07. We wouldn't be improving our minor leagues (which would be pretty barren), but our major league club would be younger and improved. That certainly looks like a WS team to me.

 

Alright, back to reality...

Stoneman certaintly has the players capable of assembling an acceptable deal, but the difference between him and us may be exactly as you alluded to -- an unwillingness to trade several top prospects. I didn't think of the Angels perspective much because I'm unsure of how their roster is shaping up concerning upcoming FA's. If several key positions (SP/2B/SS among them) are positions which Stoneman would rather fill from within, perhaps he believes Cabrera's addition alone isn't worth depleting three/four positions.

 

Milledge/Heilman is a more realistic return for Vazquez, but I doubt it'd be enough to land Cabrera. You have to imagine any deal includes a Top 5 overall prospect. As I said previously, any such pipe-dream would heavily depend upon a return package from a starter. Personally, if If Pelfrey were included, I don't believe the Angels could match that. His addition, well as Anderson/Fields/Broadway/additional prospect may interest Florida. Doesn't mean they'd accept it. Probably would use such a proposal as toliet paper. I merely believe this package may be one of the best we could muster without further depleting our current roster.

 

I know if I were Florida it'd take quite the package to consider trading a player whose 'players most similar to' list at Baseball Prospect is fricken Hank Aaron and Mickey Mantle. It all depends on whether Florida feels five players for one is justified. That one being one of the best players in the game; and of those five players, none guaranteed for success.

 

Now, I know we both realize this is entirely a fantasy between us. I mean, we're basing trade scenarios off initial trade scenarios which haven't even occured.

Edited November 28, 2006 by Flash Tizzle

[whitesox61382]

Anyone who says that the Sox are getting ripped off with a Crede/Garcia for Santana/Figgins deal is a classic example of overvaluing the Sox players. I can maybe understand the argument that it is a wash, but I think it would be a great deal for the Sox. At the absolute worse, it will be a wash in the short-term and a great deal in the long-run.

 

Santana is one of the top young pitchers in baseball. It is extremely rare to pry away a pitcher of his calibur. At twenty-three, he would have had the best ERA among the Sox starters last year, plus his peripheral stats were very good(BAA, WHIP, OPS, HR/IP, BB/SO). If you asked me who will likely have a better season next year(based on ERA), I would say Santana. If we learned anything, we learned that pitching wins championships, and a pitcher with ace material, who is coming off a very solid season, and is all of twenty-three are extremely rare to come by. Not to mention the fact that he has four years before he becomes a FA(compared to one for Garcia), is making next to nothing(and will probably not make ten million+ until he becomes a FA), and he is seven years younger.

 

Obviously, Crede is a better player than Figgins, but I still think some of you guys are overvaluing Crede a little. Yes, he is very good defensive(just below GG standard in my book), has proven he can hit for some power, and showed he can hit for some average last season, but he isn't perfect and might not be a better fit for the team. The Sox put up great overall offensive numbers if you look at the season as a whole, but they were inconsistent offensively. They got back to their living on the HR ways of the past. So you saw a lot of nine-seven wins followed by two-one loses. Overall that comes to a five run average per game(looks good overall), but hides the inconsistency. I think the Sox need to add one or two high average/high OBP type players(it would be nice if they had speed as well) to help decrease the offense inconsistency. Despite his numbers last year, Figgins has proven to be a solid average/OBP guy with great speed opposed to Crede. I will miss Crede's D at third, and hope that the Sox don't intend on starting Figgins at third. It does potentially open a hole at third, but the Sox can address the problem inhouse(Cintron, Mack, or Fields), OR use one of the other starters to trade for a thirdbase man, OR use the money saved in the deal to sign a FA. Finally, lets not forget that Crede has chronic back problems, is in line for a significant pay increase, and has Mr. Boras as his agent(will probably lose him to FA soon).

 

Finally, the Sox still have the flexibility to make other moves. They free up some payroll to potentially add a quality player or two via FA. They still have one veteran starter they can move to pick up good prospects or address other weaknesses. Also, in order to consistently stay competitive you need to continuely switch in younger players for veterans without losing a step and this deal accomplishes that. Trust me, if this deal went through, Sox fans will be saying that it was an absolute steal two-three years from now.

[southsideirish71]

People keep quoting 2005 as a reason not to get rid of player A. Eject the WS DVD already.

 

We won in 2005 because of an overwhelming starting pitching. We lost last year because we became the homer only, and medicore pitching team of previous years. So if this type of deal goes through we will start to assemble some young strong pitching. The same formula that did wonders for championship winning in 05. Pitching wins in this league. Not Joe, not Aaron, or insert favorite player here.

 

Count, Santana, Garland and Bmac looks like a nice foresome for years. Count and Santana miss a lot of bats and give us a dominant 1-2 punch. And the only reason I didnt include Buerhle, for all of the Buerhle fans, is that he is a FA after this year.

 

On paper for many a year our offense should of won us many a championship. Then after getting his ass handed to him, KW wised up and started to assemble pitching. Lets see what he can do with that.

Edited November 28, 2006 by southsideirish71

[YASNY]

I know I probably overvalue Crede, but a good 3B is hard to find. After Ventura left as FA, the Sox had this huge void at third until Crede came into his own. Hell, the Mets and Cubs went decades looking for a decent 3B.

[beautox]

Typical stupid Soxtalk double standard.

 

Garcia's September = we were out of it and didn't matter.

Thome's "bad" September = he wasn't there when we needed him the most.

 

[YASNY]

From the LA Times:

 

In a deal that would fill the Angels' need for a power hitter but that would come with a steep price, the Angels and Chicago White Sox have discussed a trade that would send infielder-outfielder Chone Figgins and pitcher Ervin Santana to Chicago for third baseman Joe Crede and pitcher Freddy Garcia, baseball sources said Monday. The sources said no trade was imminent and other players probably would be included in any deal should negotiations progress.

 

Crede, 28, hit .283 last season with 30 home runs, more than any Angel except Vladimir Guerrero. He has played for more than a year with two herniated disks in his lower back and has opted for a rehabilitation program rather than surgery this off-season. Figgins, the Angels' center fielder and leadoff hitter last season, lost both jobs when the team signed free-agent Gary Matthews Jr. last week. Figgins is listed as the Angels' third baseman.

 

The White Sox have top prospect Josh Fields ready to play third base and could replace Garcia with Santana, a younger pitcher with a less-expensive contract. With Garcia owed $10 million next season and Crede expected to make about $5 million in arbitration, the Angels would add about $11 million to their payroll next season. Figgins is signed at $3.5 million; Santana figures to make about $500,000.

 

Garcia, 30, was 17-9 with a 4.53 earned-run average in 2006. He is eligible for free agency after next season.

 

Angels General Manager Bill Stoneman remains uncomfortable trading young pitchers. Santana, 23, led the team in victories, going 16-8 with a 4.28 ERA in his first full season. The Angels and White Sox discussed a possible trade at the general managers' meetings three weeks ago, but Stoneman indicated after the subsequent signing of Matthews that he would be reluctant to trade Santana or reliever Scot Shields, even if trading either could bring a power hitter.

[DBAHO]

At least the last sentence of that 1st paragraph shows that we aren't settling for just Figgins and Santana here (or at least that's what I hope).

 

I want to throw up a scenario here.

 

You make this trade (we get Aybar as well). You trade Garland and Anderson for Hurley, Danks and Masset.

 

You then trade Vazquez for say Mike Pelfrey and another prospect.

 

So we'll have 4 SP's in Buehrle, Contreras, Santana and B-Mac.

 

We save $11M in the 1st deal, about $10M in the 2nd, and about $9M in the 3rd, shaving $30M off the payroll.

 

Ryan Sweeney will take over at CF for Anderson. Figgins plays LF for Podsednik when Pods is traded.

 

With the $30M you save (plus there's probably an additonal $10M in payroll as well), would you then try to sign a stud SP like Zito or Schmidt (or even Clemens on a short - term deal), or trade for a guy like Manny while Figgins takes over at 3rd.

 

The Sox would never trade 3 of their SP's though. But I think with all of the stud SP's we acquire, in the long - term, it would be the best thing for this franchise to do. With that payroll room, we should still definitely be able to contend with a very good acquisition or 2.

[alk3kevin]

When we trade Joe we need more than a Figgins.

We need to steal some great players.

Crede and Freddie need to bring a lot.

It must be nice when we can bag on a guy who had the record

of Freddie this past year.

Juding a pitcher by wins? Come on.

[SABR Sox]

......6 GS. That's Jaret Wright territory.

 

Of course, my post wasn't meant to be taken entirely serious.

 

Jason, the Sox don't need to send Buehrle or any of their veteran pitchers to winterball because they are well established. If I had my choice I would send McCarthy to winterball unless he, the scouts, and Cooper feel he has more than enough time in Spring Training to become a starting pitcher again. I'm not entirely against getting Santana, but I'm sick of people undervaluing Garcia (especially with this market) and thinking Santana is a lock for Cy Young an/or 22 wins(yes people have made these claims.)

 

Honestly, Santana looks like another guy who opens a lot of our eyes because he punks the Sox but has stats that tell another story.

 

What good is a guy if he can only pitch in one stadium in the MLB, and that stadium isn't on the South Side?

What good is a guy if he can't go 4 innings against any of division rivals, including the Royals?

 

I'm not completely writing him off because he has shown some great signs of brillance (usually at home or against the Sox,) and he is cheap and under control until 2012.

 

But its only 6 games.

 

That's another sample size.

 

I don't give up on SP's that easily. Just me though.

[GreatScott82]

At least the last sentence of that 1st paragraph shows that we aren't settling for just Figgins and Santana here (or at least that's what I hope).

 

I want to throw up a scenario here.

 

You make this trade (we get Aybar as well). You trade Garland and Anderson for Hurley, Danks and Masset.

 

You then trade Vazquez for say Mike Pelfrey and another prospect.

 

So we'll have 4 SP's in Buehrle, Contreras, Santana and B-Mac.

 

We save $11M in the 1st deal, about $10M in the 2nd, and about $9M in the 3rd, shaving $30M off the payroll.

 

Ryan Sweeney will take over at CF for Anderson. Figgins plays LF for Podsednik when Pods is traded.

 

With the $30M you save (plus there's probably an additonal $10M in payroll as well), would you then try to sign a stud SP like Zito or Schmidt (or even Clemens on a short - term deal), or trade for a guy like Manny while Figgins takes over at 3rd.

 

The Sox would never trade 3 of their SP's though. But I think with all of the stud SP's we acquire, in the long - term, it would be the best thing for this franchise to do. With that payroll room, we should still definitely be able to contend with a very good acquisition or 2.

Some interesting scenario's there! I was thinking this morning and realized- if this trade does happen, we would still have 6 starters. And lets say Tampa gets stubborn and decides they are keeping Crawford. What will KW do? IMO he will try to ship Vazquez to a team desperate for pitching and attempt to get stronger at either the 3B, SS or LF possitions. And chance of that Michael Young trade happening? Or how about a deal for Manny? So many options he still would have with the 6 starters...

I just hope Tampa doesn't remain stubborn with Crawford

[beautox]

At least the last sentence of that 1st paragraph shows that we aren't settling for just Figgins and Santana here (or at least that's what I hope).

 

I want to throw up a scenario here.

 

You make this trade (we get Aybar as well). You trade Garland and Anderson for Hurley, Danks and Masset.

 

You then trade Vazquez for say Mike Pelfrey and another prospect.

 

So we'll have 4 SP's in Buehrle, Contreras, Santana and B-Mac.

 

We save $11M in the 1st deal, about $10M in the 2nd, and about $9M in the 3rd, shaving $30M off the payroll.

 

Ryan Sweeney will take over at CF for Anderson. Figgins plays LF for Podsednik when Pods is traded.

 

With the $30M you save (plus there's probably an additonal $10M in payroll as well), would you then try to sign a stud SP like Zito or Schmidt (or even Clemens on a short - term deal), or trade for a guy like Manny while Figgins takes over at 3rd.

 

The Sox would never trade 3 of their SP's though. But I think with all of the stud SP's we acquire, in the long - term, it would be the best thing for this franchise to do. With that payroll room, we should still definitely be able to contend with a very good acquisition or 2.

 

What is so good about Massest? someone please enlighen me.

 

Mike Pelfrey's agent is Scott Boras, now that isn't that big of a deal for 4-5 years, but still.

 

Also in this market it would be a waste to spend that money on Zito (Boras strikes again), Schmidt(injury concern), Clemens(wrong sox).

[Hatchetman]

i can't stand that we're crying poverty again just like it was 1987. we can't sign dye. we can't sign crede. we have to trade one of our starters. we can't sign any free agents. for crissakes i thought those days were gone after last year.

[SoxFan562004]

KW doesn't seem thrilled with how things are shaping up right now.

Yes, all those Sox fans I have talked to who are dreaming about Barry Bonds playing LF. Where did that come from?!?!?!!

[GoSox05]

if that trade were to happen, does Figgins play third? Or does fields play third and figgins in left or center field?

 

Also does that mean we would trade another starting pitcher?

[Gregory Pratt]

Juding a pitcher by wins? Come on.

 

I agree. Jon Garland is awfully overrated.

[Rowand44]

I agree. Jon Garland is awfully overrated.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not but he has indeed become quite overrated.

[Leonard Zelig]

Joe doesn't seem like an "LA type of guy". At least now it is just about a 6 hour or so drive home for him. Perhaps that will make him change his mind and sign an extension.

 

I know I am reaching here, but I really want to see him in Chicago for a long time.

[Gregory Pratt]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not but he has indeed become quite overrated.

 

I've been calling Garland overrated for a long time, and I certainly mean it.

[KevHead0881]

i can't stand that we're crying poverty again just like it was 1987. we can't sign dye. we can't sign crede. we have to trade one of our starters. we can't sign any free agents. for crissakes i thought those days were gone after last year.

 

I don't believe we're "crying poverty". The Sox have the money to shell out a monster contract for Crede or make a large bid on a free agent. They aren't doing so because none of these players are worth anywhere near the asking price. We could spend our money stupidly to make our team slightly better, or we can explore options that won't strap us financially for years to come, and still improve the team.