Sox & Angels Talking; Crede/Garcia for Santana/Figgins

[Rowand44]

I don't believe we're "crying poverty". The Sox have the money to shell out a monster contract for Crede or make a large bid on a free agent. They aren't doing so because none of these players are worth anywhere near the asking price. We could spend our money stupidly to make our team slightly better, or we can explore options that won't strap us financially for years to come, and still improve the team.

Ding. And to add to that, trading one of our starters this offseason has much more to do with Brandon McCarthy than it does with money. Yes, the money is a key to everything but if we didn't have Brandon then we wouldn't be trading a starter.

[southsider2k5]

We all do. However, it's not up to us. If Crede and Boras are going to want a 5/75 type of contract, than Joe can continue his career elsewhere...

 

LOL. 5/75 is LONG GONE as a possiblity. Let me put it to you this way, if you were a GM, would you rather give 6/100 to Carlos Lee as a mediocre corner OFer, or to Joe Crede as a GG 3B?

 

Kiss Joe goodbye, because he is as good as gone.

[RockRaines]

I know I probably overvalue Crede, but a good 3B is hard to find. After Ventura left as FA, the Sox had this huge void at third until Crede came into his own. Hell, the Mets and Cubs went decades looking for a decent 3B.

its hard to overvalue a gold glove 3B who can hit for power and avg. Anyone who says he is a notch below GG caliber is just trying to ease their mind and ready it if he gets dealt. He is one of the elite 3B in the game today, and it will hurt our team losing him no matter what.

[iamshack]

LOL. 5/75 is LONG GONE as a possiblity. Let me put it to you this way, if you were a GM, would you rather give 6/100 to Carlos Lee as a mediocre corner OFer, or to Joe Crede as a GG 3B?

 

Kiss Joe goodbye, because he is as good as gone.

 

I think any deal KW makes involving Crede will set off a flurry of further moves. I imagine he has a bunch of scenarios and contingencies mapped out, and is talking with teams like Texas, Florida, Tampa Bay, and maybe even Boston about deals which could possibly happen were he to get certain players for Crede and Garcia, or one of our other starters.

 

There is little doubt in my mind that were he to deal Crede, especially if it were Santana, that it wouldn't be just the first step in whatever grand scheme he has in his mind. Who knows...maybe the deal speculated above that saves $ clears way for a potential Manny to the southside deal, or as some others have hoped, a Crawford or MCab deal. I just have a difficult time imagining Kenny unloading Crede and Garcia and not addressing some of our other weaknesses as a result of that trade.

[southsider2k5]

On the surface, this deal makes sense for both teams. The Angels get the bat they have been looking for years now, plus they get a veteran starting pitcher who isn't afraid of the big game. The Sox unload a player they have zero chance of resigning longterm, who is also looking at perpetual back problems, and also get back their leadoff hitter, plus a young starter, not to mention the approximate 10-13 million dollars worth of annual savings.

[VAfan]

Shouldn't this read Crede OR Garcia for Santana AND Figgins?

 

This is a preposterous rumor. Everyone mentions Ervin Santana's name, but I don't salivate over him. 4.28 ERA and 1.23 WHIP. That ranked him 43rd in baseball last year. Figgins is worthless.

 

Crede can't walk for another couple of years. We need his production for the time being. I wouldn't trade him until Josh Fields is ready to take over, if that's what it comes to.

[whitesoxfan101]

I wish more people would take into account the very real possibility that Joe Crede simply had a career year last year, and didn't just develop after several full season in MLB where he was a consistently mediocre (.250) hitter. He still has Boras as his agent, he still doesn't walk, and he still has a bad back. Oh, and we still have Josh Fields in our system. Crede is at peak value right now, all things considered, so trading him isn't exactly a bad idea. Now I think we could get a better deal done than this one, but that's a different story.

[iamshack]

I wish more people would take into account the very real possibility that Joe Crede simply had a career year last year, and didn't just develop after several full season in MLB where he was a consistently mediocre (.250) hitter. He still has Boras as his agent, he still doesn't walk, and he still has a bad back. Oh, and we still have Josh Fields in our system. Crede is at peak value right now, all things considered, so trading him isn't exactly a bad idea. Now I think we could get a better deal done than this one, but that's a different story.

 

I smell what you are stepping in, but remember, Joe showed sudden and significant improvement beginning in September of 2005, not just last season. Even more interestingly, it came after he injured his wrist in Oakland in August. Seems to me he figured something out while he was out with that injury. And the fact that that improvement carried over and continued into 06' leads me to believe he has turned a corner offensively, for whatever reasons. When players have career years, it normally does not carry over from offseason to offseason if that improvement was simply a flash in the pan. I tend to buy into the idea that a light went on for Joe, and he is finally fulfilling the expectations most everyone had for him when he came out of the minor leagues as a prized prospect.

Edited November 28, 2006 by iamshack

[southsideirish71]

Shouldn't this read Crede OR Garcia for Santana AND Figgins?

 

This is a preposterous rumor. Everyone mentions Ervin Santana's name, but I don't salivate over him. 4.28 ERA and 1.23 WHIP. That ranked him 43rd in baseball last year. Figgins is worthless.

 

Crede can't walk for another couple of years. We need his production for the time being. I wouldn't trade him until Josh Fields is ready to take over, if that's what it comes to.

 

 

Because waiting until the last year of a contract is the worst time to trade a player. Who wants to give up choice grade A talent for someone that has Boras as their agent and is near the finish line for FA. The Angels would like to get Joe in now, so they could work with him and Boras on a long term deal. That is the only way they would give up a Santana.

 

You dont salivate over him, however it seems that every single GM in baseball would snap him up in an instant. And his 4.28 ERA would of looked nice last year with Freddy fastball and the gang throwing lob league all season long. Ervin is a young guy, he will get better. Freddy may get worse, Freddy is definately going to be more expensive.

 

We arent the frickin yankees people. We have a 100 mill payroll, and a lot of money tied up in a few guys. Its better to spread the wealth around and make the team better as a whole for a long time. KW wants to win, but he wants to win every single year. Replacing our rotation with young cheap talent that can win for a long time like the Braves seems like the blueprint he is going for.

[CWSGuy406]

Heh. Funny looking at both sides of things. Here's what an Angels fan over at BTF had to say about a potential Garcia/Crede for Santana/Figgins deal:

 

I [will] quit watching baseball if Santana and Garcia are included that deal. I'm serious. The idea that Stoneman is even considering that deal is just so messed up that it defies comprehension.

[WCSox]

I hate to see Joe go, given that it'll be nearly impossible to replace him. But since he's a Boras client, he won't get a long-term deal here. And I don't think that his back problems are going away anytime soon.

 

As badly as I feel about this, I welcome Figgins as a leadoff hitter and Ervin Santana has electric stuff, while costing very little. If Buehrle bounces back this season, I'd like to see the money saved via this deal used to re-sign him.

[Soxfest]

There better be more than that coming back.

Edited November 28, 2006 by Soxfest

[fathom]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that Levine said the Sox have been talking with Tampa. With the rumors regarding the Sox trying to get Ervin Santana, I think this means that KW is trying to see what he would have to acquire in order to trade for Crawford.

[iamshack]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that Levine said the Sox have been talking with Tampa. With the rumors regarding the Sox trying to get Ervin Santana, I think this means that KW is trying to see what he would have to acquire in order to trade for Crawford.

 

I fully agree.

 

As I said earlier, I am sure Kenny has asked Tampa what players it would take to get Crawford (even if they weren't currently on our team), and is exploring deals on how to get those players so he could then deal them to Tampa for Crawford. I think Crawford is the ultimate goal in all of this.

[aboz56]

Time to sell high on Crede and get maximum value for him.

 

As much as it pains me to say that, it's the reality.

 

He could have just had his best season he'll ever have, Boras is his agent and he has a back problem.

 

Sell, KW, Sell.

[WCSox]

I fully agree.

 

As I said earlier, I am sure Kenny has asked Tampa what players it would take to get Crawford (even if they weren't currently on our team), and is exploring deals on how to get those players so he could then deal them to Tampa for Crawford. I think Crawford is the ultimate goal in all of this.

 

I'd love for the Sox to acquire Crawford, but I think that it's more important for them to acquire starting pitching. And, IIRC, the D-Rays shot down a Crawford-for-Santana deal last summer.

[southsider2k5]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that Levine said the Sox have been talking with Tampa. With the rumors regarding the Sox trying to get Ervin Santana, I think this means that KW is trying to see what he would have to acquire in order to trade for Crawford.

 

Does this have something to do with the Buehrle for Crawford rumor? Any word on who we are talking to Tampa about?

[ptatc]

i can't stand that we're crying poverty again just like it was 1987. we can't sign dye. we can't sign crede. we have to trade one of our starters. we can't sign any free agents. for crissakes i thought those days were gone after last year.

No one said we couldn't sign Crede. With Boras as his agent he will demand a great deal of money and with a budget it would be wise to spread it around to create a better team not a single player. The name of the game is pitching. Now there is no way Boras will agree to an extension to buy out Crede's FA year. That is what is set in stone. NO EXTENSION does not necessarily equate to NO FA CONTRACT, but in all likely hood it will.

[chiguy79]

Would hate to see Joe go but this deal makes some sense, my only concern is that if you put Figgins in CF and Fields at 3B I don't see that making us much better "now"...which clearly is our best window for winning...I guess if the cash saved allows us to find a top LF as well then it would be okay...

 

the sox are clearly not going to spend big bucks on any free agents this off-season and will surely be using trades to facilitate their goals.

[striker]

I think Kenny is just doing this to pressure Crede into signing. Remember last year how Garland and Contreras were both included in rumors then they both ended up signing contract extensions for sub market value?

[iamshack]

Does this have something to do with the Buehrle for Crawford rumor? Any word on who we are talking to Tampa about?

 

Nothing to do with the Buehrle rumor.

On Saturday afternoon, while on the air with Chet Coppock, Levine stated Carl Crawford remained KW's top priority this offseason. He didn't necessarily say there were ongoing discussions, or mention any packages being discussed. More simply implied that KW is trying in any way possible to acquire Crawford from the DRays.

 

I think Kenny is just doing this to pressure Crede into signing. Remember last year how Garland and Contreras were both included in rumors then they both ended up signing contract extensions for sub market value?

 

That immediately came to my mind as well. Seems to me he is aiming his comments at Joe, to add pressure for him to lower his expectations relative to any extension he signs. Doesn't seem like KW would undercut his position by discussing openly the WS position on a Crede extension if not to make a statement to a player, just as he did last season with Jon and Jose. This was a calculated move by him.

[shawnhillegas]

Shouldn't this read Crede OR Garcia for Santana AND Figgins?

 

This is a preposterous rumor. Everyone mentions Ervin Santana's name, but I don't salivate over him. 4.28 ERA and 1.23 WHIP. That ranked him 43rd in baseball last year. Figgins is worthless.

 

Crede can't walk for another couple of years. We need his production for the time being. I wouldn't trade him until Josh Fields is ready to take over, if that's what it comes to.

 

 

Its simply impossible for people on this board to look at these things objectively. Figgins worthless??? Give me a f***ing break. He stole 50 bases last year, and while is average and OBP are not very good, he is absolutely a better option in left than Pods. What is your suggestion for LF? Ervin Santana is 23, and I remember everyone on this board laughing at the Orioles for turning down a Tejada deal that involved Santana, many saying that the Orioles should have taken the deal straight up. He has better stuff than anyone on our staff (perhaps with the exception of a healthy Jose) and hes signed for a long time....but all this has been said before.

 

Someone should really pull up all the complaints about Freddy lodged during the year, so that people can realize hes really not THAT valuable. He's signed for one year, Crede is signed for two, and we are going to get NO return on either if we keep them, and clubs know that. Lets not forget that Kenny made it somewhat clear that we cant resign Joe, so teams realize that we either move him or lose him for nothing. Up next is the talk about how clubs really want Heath Philips...

 

Would we really rather have Vazquez for some Mets or Rangers arms, or lose Crede and Garcia and gain Crawford and Figgins. That seems to be the real issue here if all this speculation is correct. And I prefer the second option.

Edited November 28, 2006 by shawnhillegas

[RockRaines]

Does this have something to do with the Buehrle for Crawford rumor? Any word on who we are talking to Tampa about?

It couldnt be Mark, he is due for a pay raise and they cant afford it. It has to be Santana if we can get that done. If we turn Garcia and Crede into Crawford and a spect from LAA, I would feel pretty good about it.

[southsider2k5]

Nothing to do with the Buehrle rumor.

On Saturday afternoon, while on the air with Chet Coppock, Levine stated Carl Crawford remained KW's top priority this offseason. He didn't necessarily say there were ongoing discussions, or mention any packages being discussed. More simply implied that KW is trying in any way possible to acquire Crawford from the DRays.

 

Good info. Thanks. I could very well see KW working both sets of phones to find out who Tampa wants from Anaheim in order to get Crawford. That would be an excellent pairing for a 3 way deal if we saw Bmac or Santana head to TB along with some other pieces.

[Rowand44]

If we get Santana he needs to be kept.