Who needs draft picks?

[jackie hayes]

Ok.

 

Aaron Fultz - LHP from the Phillies. Arbitration declined.

Arthur Rhodes - LHP from the Phillies. Arbitration declined.

Rick White - (yes I know that Rick White, but he had sort of similar numbers to Riske in his Phillies stint). Arbitration declined.

Matt Herges - RHP from the Marlins. Arbitration declined.

Jose Mesa - Arbitration declined from the Rockies.

Mike DeJean - Arbitration declined from the Rockies.

Ray King - Arbitration declined from the Rockies.

LaTroy Hawkins - Arbitration declined from the Orioles.

Steve Kline - Arbitration declined from the Giants.

Eric Gagne - Arbitration declined from the Dodgers.

David Weathers - Arbitration declined from the Reds.

Kent Mercker - Arbitration declined from the Reds.

Rudy Seanez - Arbitration declined from the Padres.

Octavio Dotel - Arbitration declined from the Yankees.

Russ Springer - Arbitration declined from the Astros.

 

All of those guys today weren't offered arbitration by their respective teams, so they won't cost a draft pick to sign.

No, those aren't "similar". Very few of those guys have been as good as consistently as Riske. Those who arguably have been are old or lh or both. Russ Springer has had seasons like 2006 Politte recently (seasonS, plural). I saw a lot of Hawkins this year. You think Riske looked bad? Rick White? You're telling me that if you were a gm you'd really think White and Riske are interchangeable? Matt Herges had a whip of 1.7 last year, and sucked every which way in 2005. Gagne will be more expensive and often broken.

 

If you compare career numbers, Riske's better than almost every pitcher on that list. And Kline's a Giant.

[Rowand44]

But you could fill that roll with a journeyman or young guy making close to if not minimum. I think a lot of people think Riske is the David Riske of 3 or 4 years ago. Cleveland insisted Boston take him in the Crisp trade. Guys that go to arbitration or get offered it generally get raises, and Riske would be in line for a significant raise, not based on what he is, but based on what he was, and some misleading numbers. KW doesn't want to pay him what the cost would be to keep him and I don't blame him. I think he has his sights set higher. At least I hope he does.

Riske has probably been one of the more consistant middle relievers over the last 5 years as there has been in baseball. Like I said before, he's not great but at this point I'd much rather have him than Haeger in the pen(I know that's not going to be popular around here) and there isn't much out there that'd Id rather have than Riske. Would I like better? Sure I would, but what can we acquire at this point. We can afford the 3 mill or whatever it'd cost Riske for one year if he did indeed accept arbitration. You either get a pretty decent reliever back at 3 mill(ish) or you get compensation, to me you offer arbitration and it makes no sense to me why it wasn't done.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Dec 2, 2006 -> 12:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But you could fill that roll with a journeyman or young guy making close to if not minimum. I think a lot of people think Riske is the David Riske of 3 or 4 years ago. Cleveland insisted Boston take him in the Crisp trade. Guys that go to arbitration or get offered it generally get raises, and Riske would be in line for a significant raise, not based on what he is, but based on what he was, and some misleading numbers. KW doesn't want to pay him what the cost would be to keep him and I don't blame him. I think he has his sights set higher. At least I hope he does.

You honestly believe the Sox will be able to find a journeyman pitcher to sign a 1 year deal around $2.5 million with him knowing his role in the bullpen would be limited? Oh yeah, he better perform well enough to compensate for those two draft picks not gained that could've been used to get a "young guy making close to if not the league minimum."

 

 

Also, who's to say Riske is such a lock to accept arbitration after making only $1.8 million last season? There are lots of stupid GM's out there willing to give multiyear deals to middle relievers.

Edited December 2, 2006 by santo=dorf

[Dick Allen]

You honestly believe the Sox will be able to find a journeyman pitcher to sign a 1 year deal around $2.5 million with him knowing his role in the bullpen would be limited? Oh yeah, he better perform well wnough to compensate for those two draft picks not gained that could've been used to get a "young guy making close to if not the league minimum."

Also, who's to say Riske is such a lock to accept arbitration after making only $1.8 million last season.

It would be a pretty good bet that he would accept the arbitration. If the chances were that it would be declined, the White Sox would be smart enough to offer it. Riske is not any good. He has lost his fastball, and if he's placed in a pressure situation, Hawk's plyers couldn't get the greased tee out of his ass.

[santo=dorf]

So you're expecting every journey man reliever and minor leaguer the Sox bring into Spring Training to have a plus fastball and always be able to pitch in pressure situations?

 

Good luck finding him. Do the Sox or any team need all 6 of their relievers to meet those qualifications?

[Dick Allen]

So you're expecting every journey man reliever and minor leaguer the Sox bring into Spring Training to have a plus fastball and always be able to pitch in pressure situations?

 

Good luck finding him. Do the Sox or any team need all 6 of their relievers to meet those qualifications?

The ones that are making $2+ million do. The White Sox need to stack their bullpen. That's what they did in 2005. Even that year, they had to use 3 closers, and none of the 3 got paid what Riske would get in arbitration. BTW, the rules have changed. Just because the Sox didn't offer arbitration doesn't mean they must stop negotiating with Riske. They could still try to sign him at a number below what his arbitration figure would be. I don't believe there is even a deadline anymore for that.

[beck72]

Well if we indeed would have been stuck with him he would have never had to pitch with the game on the line. He's not a great reliever by any means but having a guy with a high 3's era in the back end of your bullpen isn't exactly the worst thing in the world. This honestly makes no sense to me, we either get picks or get "stuck" with a guy who isn't very bad at all.

It makes perfect sense if the sox don't want Riske. KW and the sox coaches didn't want to get stuck with a guy they didn't want pitching for them, regardless of his ERA. They didn't want him or they would have tried to keep him [i agree, his salary would be very reasonable and in line with what other guys are getting in free agency]. IMO, Riske wasn't terrible. But KW and the sox [and we fans] should expect more than a guy who "isn't that bad".

[Vance Law]

Is it me, or does this offseason really f***in' suck?

 

 

It's you.

[CWSGuy406]

It makes perfect sense if the sox don't want Riske. KW and the sox coaches didn't want to get stuck with a guy they didn't want pitching for them, regardless of his ERA. They didn't want him or they would have tried to keep him [i agree, his salary would be very reasonable and in line with what other guys are getting in free agency]. IMO, Riske wasn't terrible. But KW and the sox [and we fans] should expect more than a guy who "isn't that bad".

 

Who says we'd be stuck with him? You're telling me another team wouldn't give up a C prospect for one year of Riske at ~$3 million?

 

It's a 'risk' (no pun intended) that the Sox should've been willing to take. It was a great opportunity to have a shot at adding a pretty good prospect to the farm system in next June's draft.

 

Bad move, plain and simple.

[Balta1701]

By the way, if I understood the rule changes last night, not every player who is offered arbitration and departs would result in draft pick compensation.

 

Starting immediately, there are now 2 classes of Free Agents who get their teams draft pick compensation if they are signed, type A and type B free agents. Type A free agents are the top 20% of free agents on the market, type B is from 20-40%.

 

When a team loses a type A FA that they offered arbitration to, they receive high draft pick compensation, I believe in the form of a first round pick and a sandwich pick. When a team loses a type B free Agent, they receive a sandwich pick and a 2nd rounder, if I recall correctly.

 

Under the old system, there was also a "Type C" Free Agent consisting of free agents of lower caliber than the top 40% of players on the market. That designation was eliminated under the new CBA. So, if I understand it right, if a player is not ranked in the top 40% of free agents on the market according to the list baseball draws up during the offseason, a team offering that player arbitration and still losing him would NOT receive draft pick compensation of any sort.

 

If David Riske was not a type A or type B Free Agent, then offering him Arbitration would have not meant that the White Sox would receive draft pick compensation if he did leave, if I understand the changes correctly.

[CWSGuy406]

If David Riske was not a type A or type B Free Agent, then offering him Arbitration would have not meant that the White Sox would receive draft pick compensation if he did leave, if I understand the changes correctly.

 

Riske was Type A. That's why Santo titled the post, "Who needs draft picks?"

 

So there goes that theory.

[santo=dorf]

Riske was a type A, so we would've had at least two picks.

[DBAHO]

Riske was a type A, so we would've had at least two picks.

And the question still remains, who's going to give up a 1st round pick to sign a David Riske, when you could sign a Russ Springer without giving that up?

[Chisoxfn]

More specifically we didn't want him at that price and now the Sox have the option of potentially bringing him back for less. No one was going to give up draft picks for him and Kenny wasn't about to be stuck with this guy (which is going to happen).

 

I love draft picks, but this isn't the type of guy you offer arbitration to. A lot of the other relievers that didn't get arbitration offered to them were better than Riske too, so all those GM's must be horrificly stupid as well.

[santo=dorf]

Teams don't have a choice on giving up draft picks. Somebody would eventually sign him (he won't retire at the age of 30) but they would probably get him at an even cheaper cost because the team would have the leverage of saying "well we don't want to give up a pick, so this is why we are offereing less."

 

Also, if one of the bottom 15 teams signs him they won't lose a first round pick.

 

When David Riske signs with someone, I'm quite sure it will be a multiyear deal with at least $2 million per year. He;ll probably get a contract like Chad Bradford.

[DBAHO]

Teams don't have a choice on giving up draft picks. Somebody would eventually sign him (he won't retire at the age of 30) but they would probably get him at an even cheaper cost because the team would have the leverage of saying "well we don't want to give up a pick, so this is why we are offereing less."

 

Also, if one of the bottom 15 teams signs him they won't lose a first round pick.

 

When David Riske signs with someone, I'm quite sure it will be a multiyear deal with at least $2 million per year. He;ll probably get a contract like Chad Bradford.

Chad Bradford had a 2.90 ERA and a 2.22 ERA after the ASB. In comparison, Riske had a 3.83 ERA for the White Sox, so I'd personally be suprised if Riske got a similar contract to Bradford.

[beck72]

Who says we'd be stuck with him? You're telling me another team wouldn't give up a C prospect for one year of Riske at ~$3 million?

 

It's a 'risk' (no pun intended) that the Sox should've been willing to take. It was a great opportunity to have a shot at adding a pretty good prospect to the farm system in next June's draft.

 

Bad move, plain and simple.

Riske is a type A free agent. No team would have given up two picks for Riske. The sox offer him arb. and every team in the majors would avoid him like the plague, which would leave him no choice but to accept the sox offer of arb.

 

If the sox wanted to keep Riske, they would have offered him arb. [or they still could bring him back for less]. The larger point is the sox don't seem to want him around for 2007.

[scotty22hotty]

BIG mistake

[chisoxt]

Prior to the 2005 WC season, KW did little until the last minute when the market 'settled down' and he picked up Iguchi and AJ on the cheap. My guess is that he will attempt to do the same thing this year. But with the overspending that has taken place so far, I'm not sure how much this market will drop. Stay tuned.

 

The fact that Williams wants to 'rededicate' the organization to scouting and player development begs the question of why the Sox had not done so sooner, given that this is an organization that typically will not outspend many other teams to get mediocre veteran talent off the shelf. It also questions why you would trade your better prospects to get the same.

[gosox41]

KW has been pissing away draft picks for years with similar moves.

 

 

He has and he hasn't. The way I see it is that it's nice to stock pile picks, but what good is stock piling them when they yield such little return.

 

In this situation I think the risks were greater that Riske would return for $2.5-3M then another team would sign him. And while I'm not trying to be too negative on the Sox farm system, the way the Sox have been drafting lately, they would likely squander that pick and blow about $1M in signing bonus for another flame out (unless they were able to trade him for something.)

 

 

 

Bob

[CWSGuy406]

Riske is a type A free agent. No team would have given up two picks for Riske. The sox offer him arb. and every team in the majors would avoid him like the plague, which would leave him no choice but to accept the sox offer of arb.

 

Again, not true. If the team is drafting from 16th-30th in the big leagues, they don't give up their first round pick. They give up a second or third round pick, and along with that, the Sox get a sandwich pick after the first round. And if you're trying to tell me that a team wouldn't give up a 2nd or 3rd rounder just to sign Riske, you're mistaken.

 

Chad Bradford had a 2.90 ERA and a 2.22 ERA after the ASB. In comparison, Riske had a 3.83 ERA for the White Sox, so I'd personally be suprised if Riske got a similar contract to Bradford.

 

Yes. Based on a half-season of stats, Riske won't get the same money Bradford got. Great logic.

 

I'm not saying Riske will get more or less money, but based on what, 30 IP? GMAFB.

[RockRaines]

No, those aren't "similar". Very few of those guys have been as good as consistently as Riske. Those who arguably have been are old or lh or both. Russ Springer has had seasons like 2006 Politte recently (seasonS, plural). I saw a lot of Hawkins this year. You think Riske looked bad? Rick White? You're telling me that if you were a gm you'd really think White and Riske are interchangeable? Matt Herges had a whip of 1.7 last year, and sucked every which way in 2005. Gagne will be more expensive and often broken.

 

If you compare career numbers, Riske's better than almost every pitcher on that list. And Kline's a Giant.

Riske's numbers are a bit of a mirage. He pitches great when the game is out of hand or not on the line which aids his ERA, but as the last three teams he has played for foud out, he is absolute crap when he needs to stop runs from scoring, or keep the other team at bay. He is one of those players where his numbers are misleading.

[DBAHO]

Again, not true. If the team is drafting from 16th-30th in the big leagues, they don't give up their first round pick. They give up a second or third round pick, and along with that, the Sox get a sandwich pick after the first round. And if you're trying to tell me that a team wouldn't give up a 2nd or 3rd rounder just to sign Riske, you're mistaken.

Yes. Based on a half-season of stats, Riske won't get the same money Bradford got. Great logic.

 

I'm not saying Riske will get more or less money, but based on what, 30 IP? GMAFB.

And I'd look at how Riske hasn't gotten any better since that 04 season (just going off the top of my head here).

 

Personally I don't think he's a great option, especially when you consider he wasn't used much for a bullpen that struggled in 2006 (although that was due to Ozzie's love of the matchups, e.g lefties against Cotts).

 

And also I don't think Bradford will live up to that contract, because he's only successful under Rick Peterson's tutelage right?

 

But for the money Riske is going to get, he could well put up better stats than Bradford, just because Bradford will be leaving his "comfort zone", and Riske could pitch in a better pitching envrionment. Doesn't mean he's going to get a 3Y/10M deal though.

[YASNY]

Kenny made the decision and it's done. Get ye over it!

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 3, 2006 -> 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Riske's numbers are a bit of a mirage. He pitches great when the game is out of hand or not on the line which aids his ERA, but as the last three teams he has played for foud out, he is absolute crap when he needs to stop runs from scoring, or keep the other team at bay. He is one of those players where his numbers are misleading.

Proof please, now.

 

According to ESPN over the past 3 seasons, Riske has pitched well in close and late situations. In 230 at-bats batters had a line of .230/.312/.396 against him. I'd take that from our fifth guy in the pen.