Sox should trade 2 SP's

[gosox41]

If T ed Lily is turning down 4 year $37 million contract offers it tells me that KW needs to trade 2 starters and max out on the insanity out there. This is a golden situation that doesn't come very often.

 

 

First trade I'd make is the Garcia/Crede for Figgins and Santana. It leaves the Sox with 6 starters and adds more speed to the line up. Ozzie wanted more speed on this team last season and now he will have it. It also frees up $10 mill to fill other holes like the stealth bullpen the Sox need.

 

The second trade gets a little tricky. It involves one of 2 scenarios. If you believe pitching is the key, then you go with scenario 2. If not, Scenario 1 is the best option:

 

1. Trade McCarthy (and others) for Carl Crawford. It's exciting to think about a line up where your 9,1, and 2 hitters can steal a combined 150 bases. The offense would have more flexibility then the 2006 offense as speed doesn't slump as much. Crawford would be a great #2 hitter behind Pods/Figgins. Bat the other guy 9th. Move Iguchi down to 6/7 in the order and watch his power numbers increase as he's no longe sacrificing himself as much.

 

2. Trade Garland (or more ideally Buehrle since he's in the last year of his contract) to the Rangers for the rumored deal of Danks, a second pithcing prospect, and Otuska. Instantly the bullpen is improved with Otsuka. Either Danks or the second pitchig prospect would compete for the 6th spot with Logan.

 

For the record I'd trade Buehrle before Garland but Garland probably has more value since he under contract through 2008.

 

This trade sets the Sox 2007 bullpen and also starts setting the starting rotation for 2008. If these young guys are as good as hyped, then I can see a rotation of Contereras, Vazquez, Santana, McCarthy, and Danks for the '08 season. It's 4 experienced starts plus Danks who supposedly has a high ceiling.

 

But now is the time for KW to make a splash and fade the insane moves of overpaying for mediocre pitchers. In 2008 the price of signing FA pitching is going to remain or increase from these high levels and I would be annoyed to see roughly 10% of the teams payroll tied into a Ted Lily. Now is an opportune time for KW to strike while the iron is hot.

 

 

 

Bob

[alk3kevin]

If T ed Lily is turning down 4 year $37 million contract offers it tells me that KW needs to trade 2 starters and max out on the insanity out there. This is a golden situation that doesn't come very often.

First trade I'd make is the Garcia/Crede for Figgins and Santana. It leaves the Sox with 6 starters and adds more speed to the line up. Ozzie wanted more speed on this team last season and now he will have it. It also frees up $10 mill to fill other holes like the stealth bullpen the Sox need.

 

The second trade gets a little tricky. It involves one of 2 scenarios. If you believe pitching is the key, then you go with scenario 2. If not, Scenario 1 is the best option:

 

1. Trade McCarthy (and others) for Carl Crawford. It's exciting to think about a line up where your 9,1, and 2 hitters can steal a combined 150 bases. The offense would have more flexibility then the 2006 offense as speed doesn't slump as much. Crawford would be a great #2 hitter behind Pods/Figgins. Bat the other guy 9th. Move Iguchi down to 6/7 in the order and watch his power numbers increase as he's no longe sacrificing himself as much.

 

2. Trade Garland (or more ideally Buehrle since he's in the last year of his contract) to the Rangers for the rumored deal of Danks, a second pithcing prospect, and Otuska. Instantly the bullpen is improved with Otsuka. Either Danks or the second pitchig prospect would compete for the 6th spot with Logan.

 

For the record I'd trade Buehrle before Garland but Garland probably has more value since he under contract through 2008.

 

This trade sets the Sox 2007 bullpen and also starts setting the starting rotation for 2008. If these young guys are as good as hyped, then I can see a rotation of Contereras, Vazquez, Santana, McCarthy, and Danks for the '08 season. It's 4 experienced starts plus Danks who supposedly has a high ceiling.

 

But now is the time for KW to make a splash and fade the insane moves of overpaying for mediocre pitchers. In 2008 the price of signing FA pitching is going to remain or increase from these high levels and I would be annoyed to see roughly 10% of the teams payroll tied into a Ted Lily. Now is an opportune time for KW to strike while the iron is hot.

Bob

Prove it. I hate this bs statement. There's absolutely no proof that a lineup with 3 guys who suck at getting on base but are fast (oooooo) will not slump.

[Jim Spencer]

First trade I'd make is the Garcia/Crede for Figgins and Santana. It leaves the Sox with 6 starters and adds more speed to the line up. Ozzie wanted more speed on this team last season and now he will have it. It also frees up $10 mill to fill other holes like the stealth bullpen the Sox need.

 

I really like this one. Too bad the Angles don't

[The Critic]

If T ed Lily is turning down 4 year $37 million contract offers it tells me that KW needs to trade 2 starters and max out on the insanity out there. This is a golden situation that doesn't come very often.

First trade I'd make is the Garcia/Crede for Figgins and Santana. It leaves the Sox with 6 starters and adds more speed to the line up. Ozzie wanted more speed on this team last season and now he will have it. It also frees up $10 mill to fill other holes like the stealth bullpen the Sox need.

 

The second trade gets a little tricky. It involves one of 2 scenarios. If you believe pitching is the key, then you go with scenario 2. If not, Scenario 1 is the best option:

 

1. Trade McCarthy (and others) for Carl Crawford. It's exciting to think about a line up where your 9,1, and 2 hitters can steal a combined 150 bases. The offense would have more flexibility then the 2006 offense as speed doesn't slump as much. Crawford would be a great #2 hitter behind Pods/Figgins. Bat the other guy 9th. Move Iguchi down to 6/7 in the order and watch his power numbers increase as he's no longe sacrificing himself as much.

 

2. Trade Garland (or more ideally Buehrle since he's in the last year of his contract) to the Rangers for the rumored deal of Danks, a second pithcing prospect, and Otuska. Instantly the bullpen is improved with Otsuka. Either Danks or the second pitchig prospect would compete for the 6th spot with Logan.

 

For the record I'd trade Buehrle before Garland but Garland probably has more value since he under contract through 2008.

 

This trade sets the Sox 2007 bullpen and also starts setting the starting rotation for 2008. If these young guys are as good as hyped, then I can see a rotation of Contereras, Vazquez, Santana, McCarthy, and Danks for the '08 season. It's 4 experienced starts plus Danks who supposedly has a high ceiling.

 

But now is the time for KW to make a splash and fade the insane moves of overpaying for mediocre pitchers. In 2008 the price of signing FA pitching is going to remain or increase from these high levels and I would be annoyed to see roughly 10% of the teams payroll tied into a Ted Lily. Now is an opportune time for KW to strike while the iron is hot.

Bob

 

You traded McCarthy.

[RME JICO]

You traded McCarthy.

He traded him in #1 not #2.

[Rowand44]

You're trying to set this team up for the future yet you're trading Brandon and Jon? The two starters who are under contract for the longest. I'm confused.

 

EDIT: Nevermind, I didn't read it all the way through. Still, trading Brandon to make us better for the future, doesn't. And as already been mentioned, supposedly the Angels turned down the Freddy/Crede for Santana/Figgins.

Edited December 3, 2006 by Rowand44

[SkokieSox]

I like the idea of taking advantage of this market, but the possibility would largely be impacted if we got Santana. The other pitching spects would be great to have, but I think you can only risk it by getting the talent of Santana, who has proved he pitch at this stage, showing improvement. I think he's ready to bust out this year or next...

[RME JICO]

If T ed Lily is turning down 4 year $37 million contract offers it tells me that KW needs to trade 2 starters and max out on the insanity out there. This is a golden situation that doesn't come very often.

First trade I'd make is the Garcia/Crede for Figgins and Santana. It leaves the Sox with 6 starters and adds more speed to the line up. Ozzie wanted more speed on this team last season and now he will have it. It also frees up $10 mill to fill other holes like the stealth bullpen the Sox need.

 

I would actually flip Santana to Tampa Bay instead of trading McCarthy if the Garcia/Crede deal went thru.

[The Critic]

He traded him in #1 not #2.

Ahh, yes, indeed he did.

I misread the scenario and thought it was a "do this, then do that" kind of thing.

[SadChiSoxFanOptimist]

I would actually flip Santana to Tampa Bay instead of trading McCarthy if the Garcia/Crede deal went thru.

 

Conventional wisdom on this site is that Tampa Bay has already rejected him as a key element in a Crawford trade.

[joeynach]

First of all I would trade crede but not until 2008 when he will be right at the door of free agency. That being said I would be in favor of trading Buehrle or Garcia (cuz they are FA next year) for bullpen, young pitching, or speed. But if they dont wind up tradining these guys then what. Well than we got guys who cant be any worse than they were in 06 at realativly bargain prices. Even if KW doesn't trade any and brings em back we have one of the best and most solid pitching staffs around. And we thought 53 Mil for 5 pitchers was absurd, we look like genious now. That being said thats a conflict of interest with McCarthy. I would love to have crawford and would give up McCarthy to get him, but Im just a fan. And it is becomeing more evident that affordable (and young) pitching might be the biggest gem, the biggest prize in all of baseball. And we have that in mccarthy who is ready to start, so It would be tough to trade him and leave an expensive hole to fill in 07 when guys like adam eaton, and radny wolf and their 4.5 ERA gets at least 8-9 Mil a year, yuck. So I beleive whatever KW does for this year isn't just for this year hes setting up our roster for the next few years.

[Dick Allen]

I do like the idea of trading 2 starters, but I would keep McCarthy. I also wouldn't mind Crede being traded if they could come up with a better replacement than Fields. Crede is a great defender, but he's has as many great offensive seasons as Gary Matthews Jr., and his agent and his back will most likely always be an issue.

[SkokieSox]

Conventional wisdom on this site is that Tampa Bay has already rejected him as a key element in a Crawford trade.

TB would want Santana, McCarthy, and probably Vasquez to give up Crawford. They've stated they want two front line starters and a top pitching prospect. **** that. If we get Santana, I just assume keep him. He's going to break out...

[Chet Lemon]

I would rather ink Buehrle to a long-term deal before this season starts than trade him or let him hit FA. I am unsure where both sides are at, but I think signing Buehrle to a multi-year contract now would be a steal compared to later as I believe his '07 will be more comparable to '05 than his disastrous 2006.

Edited December 3, 2006 by Chet Lemon

[Chet Lemon]

You did not read my post completely or maybe did not understand what I meant when I said, "I am unsure where both sides are at." This makes number 4 of your condescending response completey irrelevant. That said, I was advocating the Sox offer him a nice deal that does not undercut Buehrle's career. I'm not saying, "he was crap last year, let us give him a contract reflecting soley the '06 campaign, but a contract reflecting his accomplishments. I don't see how that hurts him. If Buehrle rejects that b/c it's not in his best interest, then fine. I think from Buehrle's standpoint, he could feel slighted if the Sox never offered him anything until the end of next season. By your logic, Konerko would have signed with a different team last season.

 

I was speaking to this thread that proposed Buehrle be traded to avoid FA, where I agree in part that we should avoid FA for a number of reasons, chiefly that we would have a growing number of FAs to decide on. I disagreed with him being traded. In addition, I like having a least one southpaw in our rotation.

[gosox41]

I do like the idea of trading 2 starters, but I would keep McCarthy. I also wouldn't mind Crede being traded if they could come up with a better replacement than Fields. Crede is a great defender, but he's has as many great offensive seasons as Gary Matthews Jr., and his agent and his back will most likely always be an issue.

 

 

If the Sox get Crawford, Figgins could be at 3B. He may be a better option then Fields right now.

 

 

 

Bob

[gosox41]

Prove it. I hate this bs statement. There's absolutely no proof that a lineup with 3 guys who suck at getting on base but are fast (oooooo) will not slump.

 

 

I don't know how to prove it with math. But think of it this way. Pods is back, like it or not (unless KW trades him) so his OBP will be about the same.

 

Crede has a career .308 OBP and was at .323 last year. Add this to his first breakout year and a bad back and it makes it that much more tempting to trade him.

 

Figgins had a .336 OBP last year and .345 for his career so he's been better then Crede at getting on base.

 

Crawford's OBP was at .348 last year and .326 for his career. The beloved Brian Anderson was at .290. This is an upgrade right there. And please don't bring up Mackowiak at CF as me (and most) don't see him as a viable CF option unless you want to get into a defensive discussion.

 

I think this team needs to be more balanced offensively. People that were advocating for Manny and getting excited about a 3-4-5-6 combo of power and slowness isn't the answer. We might as well go back to 2000-2004 Sox. But a lot of speed adds a different dimension as it eliminates base clogging, imrpoves bunting, and is a great distraction for an opposing pitcher.

 

 

 

Bob

[YASNY]

I'd be curious to know how many doubles Crede saves over the course of a season with his glove.

[BobDylan]

I don't know how to prove it with math. But think of it this way. Pods is back, like it or not (unless KW trades him) so his OBP will be about the same.

 

Crede has a career .308 OBP and was at .323 last year. Add this to his first breakout year and a bad back and it makes it that much more tempting to trade him.

 

Figgins had a .336 OBP last year and .345 for his career so he's been better then Crede at getting on base.

 

Crawford's OBP was at .348 last year and .326 for his career. The beloved Brian Anderson was at .290. This is an upgrade right there. And please don't bring up Mackowiak at CF as me (and most) don't see him as a viable CF option unless you want to get into a defensive discussion.

 

I think this team needs to be more balanced offensively. People that were advocating for Manny and getting excited about a 3-4-5-6 combo of power and slowness isn't the answer. We might as well go back to 2000-2004 Sox. But a lot of speed adds a different dimension as it eliminates base clogging, imrpoves bunting, and is a great distraction for an opposing pitcher.

 

 

 

Bob

 

The scenario you've built gives the Sox 3 lead off hitters--one of which is awful (Podsednik), one which couldn't carry Joe Crede's jock at 3B (Figgins), and then one that is above and beyond the best player of the three (Crawford) but you want to bat him 2nd?

 

A team can have overkill speed, you know. (RE: Minnestoa Twins) Plus, you mix and match Crede/Figgins hitting numbers, but what good does that do anyone? Figgins is a top of the order hitter, Crede is a power hitter. It's Figgin's job to get on base, thus his OBP needs to be high...Crede is at the bottom of the Sox power threat, therefore his OBP is pretty much moot.

 

If the Sox can land anyone better than Podsednik that fits ANYWHERE on the field, I promise you that Scotty Pods will be packing his bags. (Though I can't prove that statement.) Plus, if the Sox trade Crede for Figgins among others, I really don't see why you'd go after Crawford...especially at the expense of McCarthy. (Besides, if they got Santana in a deal for Figgins, they'd be in a pretty position again with 6 starters and for the future.) Iguchi is a pretty solid #2 hitter with some pop (and typically a #2 hitter has some pop, nothing which Crawford or Figgins will give you) so why would you take him out of that spot? ...And if you look back to 2005, the only "automatic" base stealer the team had was Podsednik.

 

I have no problem with adding more power into the line-up (Manny), just as well as I have no problems adding more speed. But in every line-up, there are spots for speed and there are spots for power. Right now the Sox lack a guy at the top (not at #2) and guys down in the order. Add a Figgins, the top is filled, no more speed is needed. Add a Manny, and you earn back all the power lost with Crede, and then some.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

The scenario you've built gives the Sox 3 lead off hitters--one of which is awful (Podsednik), one which couldn't carry Joe Crede's jock at 3B (Figgins), and then one that is above and beyond the best player of the three (Crawford) but you want to bat him 2nd?

 

A team can have overkill speed, you know. (RE: Minnestoa Twins) Plus, you mix and match Crede/Figgins hitting numbers, but what good does that do anyone? Figgins is a top of the order hitter, Crede is a power hitter. It's Figgin's job to get on base, thus his OBP needs to be high...Crede is at the bottom of the Sox power threat, therefore his OBP is pretty much moot.

 

If the Sox can land anyone better than Podsednik that fits ANYWHERE on the field, I promise you that Scotty Pods will be packing his bags. (Though I can't prove that statement.) Plus, if the Sox trade Crede for Figgins among others, I really don't see why you'd go after Crawford...especially at the expense of McCarthy. (Besides, if they got Santana in a deal for Figgins, they'd be in a pretty position again with 6 starters and for the future.) Iguchi is a pretty solid #2 hitter with some pop (and typically a #2 hitter has some pop, nothing which Crawford or Figgins will give you) so why would you take him out of that spot? ...And if you look back to 2005, the only "automatic" base stealer the team had was Podsednik.

 

I have no problem with adding more power into the line-up (Manny), just as well as I have no problems adding more speed. But in every line-up, there are spots for speed and there are spots for power. Right now the Sox lack a guy at the top (not at #2) and guys down in the order. Add a Figgins, the top is filled, no more speed is needed. Add a Manny, and you earn back all the power lost with Crede, and then some.

 

 

Carl Crawford has no pop ?? He hit 18 HR's last year. Is 25 or 26 and has his best power years ahead of him. . As far as I'm concerned he's a 50 steals 30 homer guy very soon. People talk about him when they talk about a 3000 hit potential guy. These are reasons why Tampa Bay wants a kings ransom for the guy. Any team that can pry him away from TB will be extremely pleased. He's a true 5 tool player . Hit for average and power, speed , great fielder and a damn good arm. I know good young pitchers are at a premium now but right now McCarthy is still just a prospect because he has never pitched a full season in the majors as a starter. If you have a chance to get a Carl Crawford you go for it. He won't come cheap but he'll be cheaper now than at any point in his future.

[RockRaines]

With figgins in CF, crawford in LF, where is PODS playing that he is hitting 9th?

 

I hope to god you arent suggestion Figgins as an everyday 3B.

[BobDylan]

Carl Crawford has no pop ?? He hit 18 HR's last year. Is 25 or 26 and has his best power years ahead of him. . As far as I'm concerned he's a 50 steals 30 homer guy very soon. People talk about him when they talk about a 3000 hit potential guy. These are reasons why Tampa Bay wants a kings ransom for the guy. Any team that can pry him away from TB will be extremely pleased. He's a true 5 tool player . Hit for average and power, speed , great fielder and a damn good arm. I know good young pitchers are at a premium now but right now McCarthy is still just a prospect because he has never pitched a full season in the majors as a starter. If you have a chance to get a Carl Crawford you go for it. He won't come cheap but he'll be cheaper now than at any point in his future.

 

Should've checked my facts on his power.

 

As far as what you say about Carl Crawford, I'm one of the biggest Crawford supporters on this board. I'd be more than willing to give up McCarthy for him...however, the team has needs. If they land Figgins, I wouldn't shell out McCarthy to get Crawford, a player, at that point, the team wouldn't REALLY need. (Though, he still could be needed if Figgins is the replacement at 3B, not Fields.)

 

But as I think this out a little more clearly, I seem to be changing my opinion. If TB wants a front line starter (not two and a top prospect like somebody said), then they'd have the chips with either Santana/McCarthy and still have a solid 5 rotation.

[gosox41]

With figgins in CF, crawford in LF, where is PODS playing that he is hitting 9th?

 

I hope to god you arent suggestion Figgins as an everyday 3B.

 

 

It's not ideal but IMHO it's a better option then Fields. I know Crede is a great glove and all and Figgins isn't nearly as good. But if Ozzie can justify Mackowiak in CF then I can see Figgins at 3B.

 

Also, while it looks like Pods is back, if the Sox are able to trade him, the OF would be set. I'm not sure what the plan is, but being as the Sox just re-signed the guy I'm going under the assumption that he is the starting LFer for next season, but you know what they say about assumptions.

 

 

 

Bob

 

Should've checked my facts on his power.

 

As far as what you say about Carl Crawford, I'm one of the biggest Crawford supporters on this board. I'd be more than willing to give up McCarthy for him...however, the team has needs. If they land Figgins, I wouldn't shell out McCarthy to get Crawford, a player, at that point, the team wouldn't REALLY need. (Though, he still could be needed if Figgins is the replacement at 3B, not Fields.)

 

But as I think this out a little more clearly, I seem to be changing my opinion. If TB wants a front line starter (not two and a top prospect like somebody said), then they'd have the chips with either Santana/McCarthy and still have a solid 5 rotation.

 

I honestly can't think of many teams that 1. have 4 front line starters and 2. are willing to trade 2 of them for Crawford. TBay can ask for a King's ransom but it sounds like what they want are 2 young stud pitchers that can win 20+ games and aren't arbitration eligible so they don't have to pay.

 

The reason I mentioned 4 front line starters is because if a team foolishly trades 2 for Crawford, is any team going to expect or hope to win with a bunch of 3-4-5 type starters making up the whole rotation?

 

 

Bob

[striker]

I say we keep Vazquez, Buehrle and Garcia. Garcia and Buehrle will be free agents after 2007 so they'll have monster seasons in 2007. Contract year baby. We get another WS ring and call it a day. Put Haeger and McCarthy in the rotation in 2008 and take that $19mil that Buehrle and Garcia left us and either re-sign one of them or get someone else. Don't forget Dye will be a free agent after 2007 too. Thats another $7mil.

 

They'll all have huge years.

[Kalapse]

I say we keep Vazquez, Buehrle and Garcia. Garcia and Buehrle will be free agents after 2007 so they'll have monster seasons in 2007. Contract year baby. We get another WS ring and call it a day. Put Haeger and McCarthy in the rotation in 2008 and take that $19mil that Buehrle and Garcia left us and either re-sign one of them or get someone else. Don't forget Dye will be a free agent after 2007 too. Thats another $7mil.

 

They'll all have huge years.

Yeah, just like Miguel Tejada had in his contract year.