Rumor:Garcia to Philles for Arow + Madson/Floyd

[RockRaines]

If we were getting Turnbow, Rollins and Rowand I'd do it.

uh yeah. Another power pitcher, a lead off hitter and a 4th OF'er

[fathom]

I have looked at the 2005 team and considered how it accomplished what the all-star Yankee team could not. That difference is hard to describe but to illustrate it by example I would point to Rowand. However, on additional consideration, I can't deny the difference was quite likely Mark, Jon, Freddy, and Jose. Still, I like Aaron and would take him back for a fair price.

 

SFF

 

The American League is so much stronger now than it was in 2005 though. We need to keep improving, because the powerhouse teams in the AL are getting stronger also.

[Chisoxfn]

uh yeah. Another power pitcher, a lead off hitter and a 4th OF'er

Rollins

Guchi

Dye

Thome

Konerko

AJP

Crede

Rowand

Pods (sweeney or Fields may play a bit here as well)

 

Rotation:

Buehrle

Count

Garland

Vaz

Bmac

 

Pen:

Jenks

Thornton

MacDougall

Turnbow

Aardsma

Logan

 

Am I forgetting a reliever?

 

Same bench as last year.

[Cerbaho-WG]

words

 

Garcia for Rollins, Rowand and Turnbow won't happen. Won't happen if we throw Anderson or whomever in there as well. I don't see any reason why the Phillies would trade Rollins and why we would need another guy who throws 95+.

[Chisoxfn]

Garcia for Rollins, Rowand and Turnbow won't happen. Won't happen if we throw Anderson or whomever in there as well. I don't see any reason why the Phillies would trade Rollins and why we would need another guy who throws 95+.

By all means I'm not saying it will, but thats the only way (if I were GM) I'd be cutting a deal with the Phils. Just like there is no way Hirsch is as good of a prospect as a lot of people on here seem to think.

[Cerbaho-WG]

By all means I'm not saying it will, but thats the only way (if I were GM) I'd be cutting a deal with the Phils. Just like there is no way Hirsch is as good of a prospect as a lot of people on here seem to think.

 

I don't know if Hirsh is a stud or not, but I agree trading Garcia for prospects isn't a great deal unless you know the prospect is a slam dunk like Pelfrey. If you're talking Garcia for Hirsh + a regular, then it's a different story.

[Flash Tizzle]

Pen:

Jenks

Thornton

MacDougall

Turnbow

Aardsma

Logan

 

Am I forgetting a reliever?

Yes, Haeger; whose presence in the bullpen is essential with McCarthy in the rotation. Unless we're willing to blow out his arm, Brandon shouldn't be expected to pitch above 170 innings.

 

Any deal with Philadelphia I'd be asking for Hamels and Castro. Even if you believe Logan is capable of fulfilling the role of LOOGY, Castro could atleast give him another year out of Charlotte.

[RockRaines]

Yes, Haeger; whose presence in the bullpen is essential with McCarthy in the rotation. Unless we're willing to blow out his arm, Brandon shouldn't be expected to pitch above 170 innings.

 

Any deal with Philadelphia I'd be asking for Hamels and Castro. Even if you believe Logan is capable of fulfilling the role of LOOGY, Castro could atleast give him another year out of Charlotte.

I agree, on that list we dont really have a long reliever, and it is very essential to have that piece.

[fathom]

I agree, on that list we dont really have a long reliever, and it is very essential to have that piece.

 

I don't worry about the long reliever position too much due to Ozzie's use of our starters. No matter how bad they're doing, our starters will always go 6 innings.

[sircaffey]

You're going to see that change this season IMO.

 

God willing...

 

I think for BMac and Vaz Ozzie will, but the others, I'm not so sure.

[LVSoxFan]

As far as the trade goes, I digress to the more knowledgeable here.

 

But as for the Rowand-bashing, can I point out this? As somebody else noted:

 

Rowand = hard worker, may mask his lesser talent (although I don't remember a lot of balls getting by him, he just doesn't glide to them as easily as Anderson)

 

Anderson = lots of talent, but we're not seeing it (at the plate at least)

 

Rowand = okay hitter, but can hit lefties

Anderson = awful hitter

 

So it's almost sort of a wash--do you want to hard worker with less talent, or the more talented fielder but who's not reaching his potential?

 

Here's the one thing that everybody overlooks: Rowand was a clubhouse leader. That "spark" sure didn't seem to be on the bench in 2006 with him gone. Do we really think that sort of contribution should be disregarded?

 

I'm not saying this trade is a good idea, but I am saying that I think it's off-base to suggest Rowand coming back is a bad thing. Just the opposite. If it's the right price.

[AWhiteSoxinNJ]

All you people asking for Jimmy Rollins are going to be kicking yourself at mid season if we were to get him. He is extremely overrated, and I've seen him play at least over 100 last season living in the Philly area and he is not a leadoff hitter. He hits for power rather then do the litte things to get on base. Trust me.

[CanOfCorn]

I don't worry about the long reliever position too much due to Ozzie's use of our starters. No matter how bad they're doing, our starters will always go 6 innings.

 

But since Haeger is a knuckleballer, he would be easy to plug in if one of our starters gets hurt. Then we would only have to dip into the minors for the last arm out of the bullpen, not a spot starter.

 

 

 

As far as the trade goes, I digress to the more knowledgeable here.

 

But as for the Rowand-bashing, can I point out this? As somebody else noted:

 

Rowand = hard worker, may mask his lesser talent (although I don't remember a lot of balls getting by him, he just doesn't glide to them as easily as Anderson)

 

Anderson = lots of talent, but we're not seeing it (at the plate at least)

 

Rowand = okay hitter, but can hit lefties

Anderson = awful hitter

 

So it's almost sort of a wash--do you want to hard worker with less talent, or the more talented fielder but who's not reaching his potential?

 

Here's the one thing that everybody overlooks: Rowand was a clubhouse leader. That "spark" sure didn't seem to be on the bench in 2006 with him gone. Do we really think that sort of contribution should be disregarded?

 

I'm not saying this trade is a good idea, but I am saying that I think it's off-base to suggest Rowand coming back is a bad thing. Just the opposite. If it's the right price.

 

Anderson has played one year of major league baseball. I don't think it's fair to call him an awful hitter yet.

[Heads22]

"We have a center fielder right now," Guillen said. "I won't trade one of my pitchers one-for-one for Rowand right now. He's a good player, but we're not desperate for a center fielder. I love Aaron, but we need more."

 

We do? I'm scared to think of who he might be referring to.

[103 mph screwball]

I don't worry about the long reliever position too much due to Ozzie's use of our starters. No matter how bad they're doing, our starters will always go 6 innings.

 

Hopefully that is one of Ozzie's changes in attitude this off season along with interest in Pods' OBP and NOT playing Mack in CF. Ozzie's stick with the starter plan worked great in 2005 as it built the starters' confidence and stamina. It was one of his biggest failures of 2006 (there are many documented in other threads). If Javier is about to crap the bed in the 6th inning for the 4 -5 time in a row, it would be great to have rubber arm knuckle baller Haegar come out and pitch 2 or 3 innings and hold onto the lead. Ozzie won a World Series by sticking to his plan. He won't win another one unless he learns from his mistakes and experience.

 

I think Ozzie's BMac remarks were to help reinforce KW's previous remarks that BMac could just go to AAA and the Sox do not have to trade a starter. I think it was a calculated remark to tell other teams that your offers are not good enough and the Sox do not have to trade anybody. Ozzie is helping with the smoke and mirrors. Ozzie's Rowand trade comments might help Philly realize they want too much for a guy on his last year of a contract, who they have a replacement for, and who many think should be a 4th outfielder.

[sircaffey]

It's clear Ozzie wants a lock down bullpen. If he wants a lock down bullpen, he is going to use it.

You would think. But does that mean Ozzie will use numerous guys for 1 or 2 outs like he did a lot last season or does that mean he's going to use them for 3 outs each?

[sircaffey]

Now thats a whole other issue. But either way, your going to see the starters get less work this season, I think that is almost a given. All the starters have logged alot of innings the last few years, with the exception of Mac, who shouldn't go past 175 IP this year.

Believe me, it makes a whole lot of sense. But Ozzie doesn't. Hopefully the lightbulb went on.

[LVSoxFan]

Anderson has played one year of major league baseball. I don't think it's fair to call him an awful hitter yet.

 

Yeah, he's a project. Hey: I stuck by him all year last year. People around me at the games were calling for him to be demoted and I said give him time.

 

Maybe one day he will be a good hitter. Maybe winter ball will turn him around. I don't really have that big a problem with Anderson.

 

My point was that people are making Rowand sound like some broken-down warhorse who would bring nothing to the team if we ended up with him again. I think that's unfair. And not really remembering 2005 either.

 

Alas, how quickly they forget.

 

Here's my take FWIW: I don't think we need to make a boatload of trades/changes for 2007. I think 2006 was just a bad year, a tired team, some hurt starters and a team crushed under the weight of an expected repeat.

 

Remember? On paper, everybody said 2006 team was better than 2005. So they underperformed, yes. But I really don't see why we need to have an A-Rod or a Soriano-type to make this team happen again. When it was supposed to be a dream team last year.

 

Granted:

 

-Pods better regain his 2005 1st half form, and quick

-Tads needs to get his bat back

-Thome needs to play smallball when necessary

-Vazquez needs to go past five

 

Etc., etc., etc. We all know the complaints, because we all were here all second half last year repeating them endlessly.

 

I say: write of 2006, let's go with what we got and give it another try. If 2007 sucks, then we can start panicking. I trust KW. If he doesn't make any major moves, it's because he didn't see the need to. And I can live with that.

 

One other key thing which I think we all forgot last year: the 2005 Sox were taken seriously by nobody. This was the "smallball" team that was picked to finish fourth due to the radical re-invention by KW/Ozzie. It was Sox against the world, a world that didn't give them a chance. I'm sure that motivated them.

 

In '06 we were now this dream team with Dye and Thome and the best pitchers and better on paper and this and that... and we were worse than sucking: we were mediocre.

 

I'd like them to get back to that underdog, under-the-radar and off the ESPN rankings mentality.

[ChiSox9]

In '06 we were now this dream team with Dye and Thome and the best pitchers and better on paper and this and that... and we were worse than sucking: we were mediocre.

 

Great post just i dont see 90 wins as sucking. We would have had 1st in 2 of the 3 NL divisions or the Wild Card in the NL and we would have been second in the AL East and West. The Tigers were an amazing team last year and the twins finally put it together in the second half.

[kwolf68]

I have no problem with going over Brian Anderson's head, but how much of an improvement is Rowand? I loved the guy, but his defense is no better and his bat is only marginally better. Further, Rowand has probably hit his peak while Anderson still hasn't (we hope) reached his ceiling.

 

Anderson was ONE reason we dealt Rowand, we dealt Chris Young, because he was a 5-tool, can't miss prospect. He struggled last year, badly...he was brutally bad most of the season with the bat, but in the end THAT BAT was NOT WHY the Sox didn't make the playoffs. NO, the cause of our demise rests with a pitching staff that sucked most of the year. Anderson probably helped that staff by making excellent plays in the field.

 

Again, I would like to deal a SP, but the only way we should go for a CF is if it is in the Vernon Wells category. Giving up too much for a player who is only slightly better than Anderson is foolish. The Phillies trade would not make it through my table unless a 2nd prospect was thrown into the mix (Michael Bourne). But for a couple of "fading prospects" like Madsden or Floyd and a marginal upgrade (if that) in CF over Anderson (who could actually IMPROVE before his 24th birthday) there would be no way they'd get any pitcher who dealt donuts in a clinching World Series game that is as durable as teflon, who may have found "that other" pitch late last year that will add many more great years to his career.

 

The more I think about this deal, the crappier it gets. Tell Gillick to pizz off Kenny.

Edited December 6, 2006 by kwolf68

[GreatScott82]

I have no problem with going over Brian Anderson's head, but how much of an improvement is Rowand? I loved the guy, but his defense is no better and his bat is only marginally better. Further, Rowand has probably hit his peak while Anderson still hasn't (we hope) reached his ceiling.

 

Anderson was ONE reason we dealt Rowand, we dealt Chris Young, because he was a 5-tool, can't miss prospect. He struggled last year, badly...he was brutally bad most of the season with the bat, but in the end THAT BAT was NOT WHY the Sox didn't make the playoffs. NO, the cause of our demise rests with a pitching staff that sucked most of the year. Anderson probably helped that staff by making excellent plays in the field.

 

Again, I would like to deal a SP, but the only way we should go for a CF is if it is in the Vernon Wells category. Giving up too much for a player who is only slightly better than Anderson is foolish. The Phillies trade would not make it through my table unless a 2nd prospect was thrown into the mix (Michael Bourne). But for a couple of "fading prospects" like Madsden or Floyd and a marginal upgrade (if that) in CF over Anderson (who could actually IMPROVE before his 24th birthday) there would be no way they'd get any pitcher who dealt donuts in a clinching World Series game that is as durable as teflon, who may have found "that other" pitch late last year that will add many more great years to his career.

 

The more I think about this deal, the crappier it gets. Tell Gillick to pizz off Kenny.

Knowing KW, he may just go after a big fish after all. However, if there was one guy KW would overpay for it is Rowand, he carries sentimental value for this organization. Im a big fan of Rowand and all, but like you guys said we can do a whole lot better, and if KW can somehow bring Vernon Wells (a no miss CF gold glove capable outfielder) than i say go for it! But like i said before, its going take a crap load to bring him over. Were talking Anderson, Garcia and Broadway most likely. Now i would do that ONLY if he garunteed to sign an extension with us (similar to the Garcia for Olivo, Reed deal a few years back)

Edited December 6, 2006 by GreatScott82

[CanOfCorn]

Knowing KW, he may just go after a big fish after all. However, if there was one guy KW would overpay for it is Rowand, he carries sentimental value for this organization. Im a big fan of Rowand and all, but like you guys said we can do a whole lot better, and if KW can somehow bring Vernon Wells (a no miss CF gold glove capable outfielder) than i say go for it! But like i said before, its going take a crap load to bring him over. Were talking Anderson, Garcia and Broadway most likely. Now i would do that ONLY if he garunteed to sign an extension with us (similar to the Garcia for Olivo, Reed deal a few years back)

 

would anyone take Chacin along with Wells?

[LVSoxFan]

Great post just i dont see 90 wins as sucking. We would have had 1st in 2 of the 3 NL divisions or the Wild Card in the NL and we would have been second in the AL East and West. The Tigers were an amazing team last year and the twins finally put it together in the second half.

 

 

Good point. I think I'm referrng to our .500 to sub .500 play in the second half. Yes 90 wins is great and no slouch.

 

But I think we amassed a lot of them 1st half, yes? I just remember all of the second half winning one, losing one, winning one, losing two... ugh. And we never did put together any kind of streak all year, and not one in the second half.

[ChiSox9]

Good point. I think I'm referrng to our .500 to sub .500 play in the second half. Yes 90 wins is great and no slouch.

 

But I think we amassed a lot of them 1st half, yes? I just remember all of the second half winning one, losing one, winning one, losing two... ugh. And we never did put together any kind of streak all year, and not one in the second half.

 

True, a lot of our wins came in the 1st half... hell, i think are only long streaks (4-8 games) were in the first half and our major streak was when Ozzie was calling people f**s. IMHO i believe a lot of what the Sox did in the first half last season was over shadowed by Ozzie and his mouth (not that that matters).

[knightni]

Getting Rowand back = Crede signing long term...?