Garcia to Philly for Gavin Floyd and Gio Gonzalez

[witesoxfan]

I was just going to say the same thing.

 

Definitely glad to have Gio back. Counting last year, the trade ends up being Thome + $$$ + Gio + Floyd for Rowand + Garcia + Castro/Haigwood. It looks a lot better that way, so I think I'm going to just post it like that from now on.

 

I prefer Olivo, Reed, and Morse for Floyd, Gio, and a World Series title, but I'm kinda goofy like that.

[YASNY]

I highly doubt it sir.

 

Of course, so do I. But you never know about KW. I do know he has coveted Clemens for years. It could be a "thinking outside the box" type of thing.

[whitesoxfan101]

I don't know how you could bring up the Mulder trade, Flash. That was known to be a horrible, horrible mistake by St. Louis the moment the trade was made. I can't compare that to this, because that wasn't a case of getting maximum value, it was a case of St. Louis losing their freaking minds.

[kramer99]

anybody think KW may turn around and trade Floyd and someone else for some like Crawford/baldelli??

 

Or do u think this it?

[BobDylan]

anybody think KW may turn around and trade Floyd and someone else for some like Crawford/baldelli??

 

Or do u think this it?

 

Wow, welcome to the conversation.

 

Your answer lies with in the 41 previous pages this thread contains.

Edited December 7, 2006 by BobDylan

[knightni]

The thread shows me 13 pages.

[witesoxfan]

anybody think KW may turn around and trade Floyd and someone else for some like Crawford/baldelli??

 

Or do u think this it?

 

I personally don't think he's trading Floyd elsewhere. Floyd's value is probably as low as it ever will be (unless he completely bombs next year), but I have to figure KW and/or Cooper sees something in him.

 

I could see him dealing Gio again, but then again, I could see a lot of scenarios regarding Gio.

 

There's no chance this is the last move the Sox make though, especially if you are to believe what KW is saying.

[DBAHO]

Here's a good recap on Gio by John Sickels for a couple of months back;

 

Gio Gonzalez was drafted by the White Sox in the supplemental first round in 2004, out of high school in Miami. He faced better competition than Elbert did as an amateur, and was seen as a certain first-round pick for most of his amateur career. But an argument between his mother and his high school coach resulted in Gonzalez losing his spot on the team, hurting his draft stock slightly. Gonzalez is intelligent and confident, perhaps overly confident, to the point of sometimes irritating both opponents and his own coaches. He was traded to the Phillies as part of the Thome deal this past winter.

 

Gonzalez is a lefthanded hitter and thrower, listed 5-11, 185, born September 19, 1985. He is a good athlete, but has a slightly-built frame and doesn't appear to be as physically strong as Elbert. His durability has been questioned and some people think he profiles better as a reliever, but so far he's had no problems holding up to his workload. He has a consistent fastball at 89-92 MPH, hitting 93-94 at times. His curveball and changeup both rate as good pitches. His control is solid, and at this point he has more consistent mechanics and a better feel for pitching than Elbert does.

 

Gonzalez entered 2006 with a career mark of 15-9 with a 2.78 ERA and a 226/68 K/BB ratio in 188 innings. He dominated the Sally League in the first half last year, held his own in the Carolina League, and currently has a 2.62 ERA with a 38/16 K/BB in 34 innings in Double-A.

 

Although he is a few months younger than Elbert, Gonzalez appears to be closer to his maximum physical peak than Elbert. However, he still projects as a number two or three type starter.

 

[R.J.]

Its probably already been said in the thread somewhere, but the Braves get RAFAEL SORIANO for HORACIO RAMIREZ, and this is the best we can do for Garcia? We look pretty bad right now. (So does Bill Bavasi, but still).

 

EVeryone saying that Floyd has all this upside and that maybe he can turn it around and he has a good arm with plus stuff - you're all right. But he's not the pitcher you look to acquire in this market. The reports that we were lokking/asking for guys like Ervin Santana and John Lackey and John Danks and so forth were closer to what you want: someone with a lot of upside and promise. Floyd is all upside with no promise. He's damaged goods at retail price. It's just sad that Kenny Williams was placed in a position where people would be "stunned" if he didn't "win" a trade for one of our starting pitchers, and I'm sitting here looking at prices for pitching and other deals being made and I'm just seeing that we didn't get enough for our property.

 

Garcia isn't fantastic. We all saw him lose his stuff last year. We all knew that we were better off with McCarthy in 2007. But that doesnt change the fact that MEDIOCRE starting pitching is demanding a king's ransom in the free agent market and Garcia, by reputation, is ABOVE AVERAGE. You can't tell me there are all these teams willing to dish out $12M a year to Gil Meche but they're not willing to acquire Garcia because they don't want to pay him his next contract.

 

I just find it hard to believe that this was the best offer we received, or that we didn't construct a bidding war between two of the dozen or so pitching hungry teams. Either that, or I'm disappointed that Williams saw this deal as the best one on the table when all the information the press is putting out lead us to believe otherwise.

 

And I love Gio Gonzalez. But this feels like an offer you can top if you have a market thin on pitching.

[Capn12]

Well.....Horatio Ramirez also has at least 3 more years of Seattle control before being a FA, AND is coming off a managable $2.2 mil contract.

 

Granted, the Braves still fleeced Bavasi and the Mariners, but still...Garcia is a FA to be, making $10 mill this coming year...how many top prospects are you gonna really get for someone that is gonna walk after 1 year...

[witesoxfan]

Its probably already been said in the thread somewhere, but the Braves get RAFAEL SORIANO for HORACIO RAMIREZ, and this is the best we can do for Garcia? We look pretty bad right now. (So does Bill Bavasi, but still).

 

Garcia has 1 year left on his deal, and is then likely to test free agency, where he could easily get a 4/$52 contract, and perhaps better, if the current market holds true. The Mariners will have Ramirez beyond 2007...I'd imagine he becomes a free agent sometime around 2009, and he's a bit cheaper than Garcia will be even if he is a free agent sooner. Soriano's also a huge health risk, talent be damned, and is only a reliever, where as both Floyd and Gio are looked at as starters.

 

EVeryone saying that Floyd has all this upside and that maybe he can turn it around and he has a good arm with plus stuff - you're all right. But he's not the pitcher you look to acquire in this market. The reports that we were lokking/asking for guys like Ervin Santana and John Lackey and John Danks and so forth were closer

 

As if KW didn't explore those possibilities as far as he could. Everything considered, this is what Kenny felt was the best offer he could get, and I don't blame him, seeing as how Floyd will be with the White Sox until around 2011 and Gio will be under White Sox until like 2015. Freddy was gone next year, and to even suggest that other teams didn't consider that is ridiculous.

 

to what you want: someone with a lot of upside and promise. Floyd is all upside with no promise.

 

That doesn't even make sense. How is John Danks promised to be good? And how are you sure that Floyd won't be a good pitcher for the Sox by the time June rolls around? You can't make assertions like that, it's just ridiculous.

 

It's just sad that Kenny Williams was placed in a position where people would be "stunned" if he didn't "win" a trade for one of our starting pitchers, and I'm sitting here looking at prices for pitching and other deals being made and I'm just seeing that we didn't get enough for our property.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The Sox are a better team with McCarthy in the rotation and out of the bullpen, so that makes this trade a winner from that standpoint alone. Then you look at the potential upside of Floyd and Gio, and the possibility of those three starters in the Sox rotation until like 2011, and that makes it even better too. Then, considering the amount of money saved, and realizing that money will be put back into the team in some form, and I'm just not sure how this deal is really that bad.

 

Garcia isn't fantastic. We all saw him lose his stuff last year. We all knew that we were better off with McCarthy in 2007. But that doesnt change the fact that MEDIOCRE starting pitching is demanding a king's ransom in the free agent market and Garcia, by reputation, is ABOVE AVERAGE. You can't tell me there are all these teams willing to dish out $12M a year to Gil Meche but they're not willing to acquire Garcia because they don't want to pay him his next contract.

 

The free agent market and the trade market are apples and oranges.

 

And no, teams are not willing to give up talent AND money for a pitcher with an 88 MPH fastball who had a 4.53 ERA last year.

 

(and Meche will get Ted Lilly money; the Cubs are idiots)

 

I just find it hard to believe that this was the best offer we received, or that we didn't construct a bidding war between two of the dozen or so pitching hungry teams. Either that, or I'm disappointed that Williams saw this deal as the best one on the table when all the information the press is putting out lead us to believe otherwise.

 

And in pretty much every one of those articles written by the media, it was pretty much assumed the Sox were getting great value in the deal, probably too much for the trade to formulate.

 

For a comparison...please tell me how this deal rates against the Doug Davis deal.

 

ARI: Doug Davis, Dana Eveland, and Dave Krynzel

MIL: Johnny Estrada, Claudio Vargas, and Greg Aquino

 

The Brewers got a light hitting catcher who put up a .772 OPS in one of the better hitting ballparks in the league last year, a 4th or 5th starter, and a AAAA reliever for Doug Davis WHILE ALSO GIVING UP a decent pitching prospect AND a former top prospect who has fallen considerably. Then Davis's likely salary...probably around $4-5 million...needs to be taken into consideration as well.

 

I'd say compared to that deal, the Sox came out pretty well, and I don't see why it would be unfair to compare the value received in the deals.

 

 

I'd have loved for the Sox to have acquired another fringe prospect along, but I imagine it is quite obvious that this was about as far as the Phillies were going to go. I'll take it.

Edited December 7, 2006 by witesoxfan

[R.J.]

I don't think it's fair to say that we improved our ballclub just by inserting McCarthy into the rotation. We already knew we'd have McCarthy in the rotation, the objective was to improve the club in 2007 (or the future) by using a pitcher as a trading chip. We didn't address any needs for this season. We instead banked on a fallen-from-grace prospect who has never seen an ounce of major league success.

 

And that's where my statement about "promise" comes in. Though poorly worded, my point is that Gavin Floyd has seen the major leagues and has looked completely overmatched. There's reason to believe that he'll get better, he's young and needs work, but a guy like Danks (or prospects of the like) at the very least have yet to fail.

 

Don't tell me you're counting on Floyd as a top pitching prospect. The guy can't even handle AAA. That's the point i'm trying to make. He was promising when he was an 18 year old taken fourth overall in 2001. He doesn't look very promising now that he's shown he can and will get hit hard. Gavin Floyd's last promising season was 2004. If you're thinking this guy is the reason we made this deal you're very optimistic about him. He's a project. He's your typical "FIX HIM DON COOPER!" pitcher. The centerpiece is Gonzalez, who we obviously regretted dealing (rightfully) and who we think is a top 15 pitching prospect, instead of a top 30 (as most scouts rate him).

 

To say that Williams didn't explore all his alternatives would be to say that he didn't do his job. It may be warranted to speculate on how much shopping around he did before pulling this trigger, but I'm not saying he didn't do enough talking. I'm not saying he didn't do his job, but I'll say I think he did his job poorly.

 

I feel like, as many people suggested, if maybe we waited until the pitching market cooled off, once Schmidt and Zito were signed, once the Blue Jays or Cubs or Astros or Rangers etc. were looking for a #1 or 2 starter and were left with the Jeff Suppans of the world, we'd be in a better position than we would have now. And I don't think there were a lot of teams knocking on the door to get Floyd.

 

The money issue is a fair one. I just think that there are so many teams who are throwing their payrolls out the window that a handul of them wouldnt have been afraid to acquire a proven starter knowing they'd have to pay him some money next year.

 

My only contention is that everything leading up to this point had me hoping for much more than what we are left with. That's not Williams' fault, but it's just a disappointing outcome that should have been averted.

[beautox]

After reading all 43 pages of this thread, i can honestly say I'm alright with this deal.

 

I know some people here grow tired of hearing "Coop can fix them" but he does have a propensity for helping/fixing power arms. Floyd is only 23; I for one am going to give him the benefit of the doubt and a year to work with Cooper.

 

We all know what Gio features, and i'm glad to have him back in our system he just turned 21 and hes been pretty young for his level of competition.

 

If just one of these two turns out to be ML average within the next 18months i will consider this a win for the white sox. If either of them reaches their ceilings i will have considered this a coup(no pun).

 

With this 10mil saved an a log jam of ML pitching, i pray KW signs Molina up as our back up catcher, and that this is a precursor to a move that brings the sox a good SS(Vizquel/Furcal) & LFer(Willits/Denorfia/Cabrera) and we ship Podsednik off to the rockies, rangers or padres and Uribe off to the Dodgers or Giants.

 

Lastly i still wouldn't be against moving another pitcher Garland/Vazquez + Podsednik to Texas for Arias + Hurley + Volzquez + Masset.

[RME JICO]

The Sox traded Morse, Olivo and Jeremy Reed for Garcia. They trade Rowand, Gio, and Haigwood for Thome and $$$. Then trade Garcia for Gio and Floyd.

 

So in essence, the moves end up like this:

 

Rowand, Haigwood, Morse, Olivo and Jeremy Reed for Thome, $$$, and Floyd.

 

 

 

In a horrendous pitching climate, he was, without question, the best rotation arm on the trade market. And Garcia had pitched for Phillies GM Pat Gillick in Seattle.

 

So the Phillies zeroed in on the 30-year-old right-hander practically from the moment their delegation arrived at the meetings.

 

The only thing I do not understand is if Garcia was the best rotation arm on the trade market, and the Phils zeroed in on Garcia from the start, how could KW only walk away with Gio and Floyd? It is not a horrible move, but it does seem like KW could have gotten more for Garcia.

Edited December 7, 2006 by RME JICO

[soxfan3530]

hey when i left for the bars there was a dispute about if rowand was involved in the trade for garcia. since i dont feel like reading through 43 pages could someone update me on the trade. please god tell me there is a spin off trade involved!!!

[Want2Repeat]

This is absolutely freaking ridiculous!!!! Kenny is insane. What was all this talk that Kenny was biding his time to make a deal when the free agent market settled? This is just shocking and just takes the wind out of my sails. You mean we couldn't have held on to Freddy and got something a lot better for him during the season? Where was Rowand in this deal? Kenny just got hosed!!!! Even had Rowand been in this deal, I don't know if it would have made sense, but this is just an absolute joke.

Edited December 7, 2006 by Want2Repeat

[RME JICO]

hey when i left for the bars there was a dispute about if rowand was involved in the trade for garcia. since i dont feel like reading through 43 pages could someone update me on the trade. please god tell me there is a spin off trade involved!!!

 

Freddy Garcia for Gavin Floyd and Gio Gonzalez. No more, no less.

[YASNY]

The Sox traded Morse, Olivo and Jeremy Reed for Garcia. They trade Rowand, Gio, and Haigwood for Thome and $$$. Then trade Garcia for Gio and Floyd.

 

So in essence, the moves end up like this:

 

Rowand, Haigwood, Morse, Olivo and Jeremy Reed for Thome, $$$, and Floyd.

 

It's more like this ... Rowand, Haigwood, Morse, Olivo, Reed for Thome, Floyd, $$$ and 2.5 years of Garcia and one WS Championship.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Capn12 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 03:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

how many top prospects are you gonna really get for someone that is gonna walk after 1 year...

Say how did the Mariners get Freddy Garcia again? I'm not trying to say Freddy = RJ in his prime, but teams do give up multiple prospects for one year rentals. Hell the Astros gave up Garcia, Hullien and Halama for 2 months of RJ. Garcia is a lock to net two draft pick as well if he doesn't come back.

 

QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 05:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's more like this ... Rowand, Haigwood, Morse, Olivo, Reed for Thome, Floyd, $$$ and 2.5 years of Garcia and one WS Championship.

Actually it's more like:

Rowand, Haigwood, Morse, Bradford, Reed for Thome, Floyd, $$$ and 2.5 years of Garcia and one WS Championship

Edited December 7, 2006 by santo=dorf

[Colorado Sox Fan]

I really, really, really don't understand this trade at all. Garcia for the Phil's bargain bin? This sounds like Kenny was just itching to make any kind of deal.

[DBAHO]

Say how did the Mariners get Freddy Garcia again? I'm not trying to say Freddy = RJ in his prime, but teams do give up multiple prospects for one year rentals. Hell the Astros gave up Garcia, Hullien and Halama for 2 months of RJ. Garcia is a lock to net two draft pick as well if he doesn't come back.

It seems that with the amount of SP available in the FA market, and also in the trade market with the likes of Harden and Haren possibly being available, teams are willing to give up more at the trade deadline when they want to make a run etc. than at the Winter Meetings.

 

So what I'm saying is that if we held on Garcia, we COULD of maybe gotten more for him at the deadline, but of course a rotation spot doesn't get opened up for B-Mac.

 

And when we traded for Freddy, although he only had half a season left on his deal, we wouldn't have made that trade and give up the type of prospects we did, if we didn't have that agreement that he was going to re-sign with us for another 3 seasons.

[Capn12]

Say how did the Mariners get Freddy Garcia again? I'm not trying to say Freddy = RJ in his prime, but teams do give up multiple prospects for one year rentals. Hell the Astros gave up Garcia, Hullien and Halama for 2 months of RJ. Garcia is a lock to net two draft pick as well if he doesn't come back.

Actually it's more like:

Rowand, Haigwood, Morse, Bradford, Reed for Thome, Floyd, $$$ and 2.5 years of Garcia and one WS Championship

 

 

DBAH0 kinda stole my thunder already, but thats a completely different situation...when you have a team, near the trade deadline in JULY, that knows they need one big arm to put them over the top for a stretch run, then the costs get high. We came into this offseason knowing we had 6 starters in a 5 man rotation. There is no strain to improve a team at all costs like there is say...July 31st during a season.

 

 

Thats not saying I think KW got an outstanding deal or anything, but I don't think he did as bad as all the armchair GMs are whining about on here either...

[TLAK]

Does Gonzalez need to be added to the 40 man for Rule V? If so, who gets dropped?

[DBAHO]

Couple of blurbs to add;

 

According to Sox sources, the deal does not preclude them from moving another starter, and Mets GM Omar Minaya has always had Javy Vazquez, who was the ace of his Expo staffs, on his radar. ...

 

As he told the Sun-Times last week: ''This offseason will lead to an eventual market correction. It may not be next year or the year after, but a lot of people will get burned by this.''

 

Assuming he’s not traded, Javier Vazquez also is likely to be entering his final year in a White Sox uniform, and look for Jon Garland and Jose Contreras to bolt after the 2008 season.

 

Change in plan? Kenny Williams was thought to be looking outside the organization for another relief pitcher, but he said the open spot in the bullpen is more likely to be filled internally.

 

“We are already optimistic about our bullpen; we feel good about our bullpen,’’ Williams said. “Now if we can get another piece to that and add it, great. If not, we’ll look at guys like Charlie Haeger, Sean Tracey.

 

“Remember, this guy that comes in, whoever he is, is going to come in at the beginning of the bullpen anyway, the sixth inning. We’re not going to do anything to break our backs to get that guy.’’

[YASNY]

For comparison sake, I'm dropping this blurb in here:

 

Denver Post: "The Rockies continued to engage in discussions regarding Jennings, with Houston emerging Wednesday as the best fit. The Rockies are eyeing 24-year-old starter Jason Hirsch, reliever Dan Wheeler and center fielder Willy Tavares.

 

Of course, just because the Rocks are 'eyeing' these players doesn't mean they'll be able to bet them.