Are the Sox going to dump the whole team?

[VAfan]

If you carry out KW's and JR's recent comments to their logical conclusion, there is no way the Sox can re-sign ANY player after his current contract expires because the marketplace is just too expensive. And if you follow this logic out, that means you have to dump the player with a year left on their contract in order to get any value in the marketplace.

 

So, right now, according to that twisted view, should we be saying bye-bye to:

 

1. Jermaine Dye -- why not unload him now?? He won't be affordable in 2008.

2. Mark Buehrle -- ditto.

3. Tadahito Iguchi -- contract runs out next year.

 

Are there more??

 

Yet, we can give $2.9 million to bring back the worst starter on the team -- Scott Podsednik???

 

We built a championship club -- the first in almost 90 years -- by trading FOR guys like Freddie Garcia, and trading away unproven prospects like Jeremy Reed, Miguel Olivo, and Michael Morse. Now I suppose Gio Gonzalez and Gavin Floyd are worth more than we gave the M's, but dumping the guy who beat the Tigers 4X last year and won 17 games for us to acquire two guys that are unlikely to even play for the Sox in 2007 seems a tad ridiculous.

 

So much for competing with the Yankees and Red Sox and Angels. We're still a "small market" club in the eyes of our owner. Heck, why not just dump the whole team like the Marlins did -- twice??

[shawnhillegas]

reign it in, REIGN IT IN

[Kalapse]

Now I suppose Gio Gonzalez and Gavin Floyd are worth more than we gave the M's, but dumping the guy who beat the Tigers 4X last year and won 17 games for us to acquire two guys that are unlikely to even play for the Sox in 2007 seems a tad ridiculous.

Actually there's probably a 98% chance that Floyd makes the 25 man roster next year either as the last guy in the pen or in the rotation if another starter is dealt and as Coop said yesterday on the radio Gio will be battling for a bullpen spot on the big club in Spring Training next season. If Gonzalez dominates in March you just might see both he and Floyd playing major rolls in Chicago next year, which probably isn't the best way to go but seems to be a fairly realistic scenerio.

 

Does anyone know Floyd's status option wise? I've heard from a few people that he is out of options which doesn't sound right seeing as how he's only been up twice.

[NorthSideSox72]

Dude. Chill.

 

We've made ONE TRADE, and it was a good one for 2007 AND the future.

 

The rest are just rumors. Just. Rumors.

 

So far, we're better off than last year. Let's wait on the panic button until we see that change.

[GoSox05]

OH MY GOD THE WORLD IS ENDING! AAHAHAHHA

 

i really have no idea why everyone is freaking out. We traded 1 guy. 1 guy. A guy we all knew was gonna be traded.

[Flash Tizzle]

So much for competing with the Yankees and Red Sox and Angels. We're still a "small market" club in the eyes of our owner. Heck, why not just dump the whole team like the Marlins did -- twice??

Williams can't reasonably trade all upcoming FA's if he has any intentions of assembling a World Series contender. I believe it's possible, however, to have a balance. Trade several for compensation, and keep the remaining players. If they are signed to contract extensions, great. If not, we'll receive draft picks.

 

I believe at this current time it's vital to restock our minor league system because it's fairly baron. If the players you mentioned were not to be traded, or sign extensions, and end up leaving our club, who replaces them? Perhaps in the future, when Williams shows rededication towards a contributing farm system, we'll have in-house solutions for RF and/or 2B.

 

What's worse -- holding onto Dye one season before his impending free agency and only receiving a draft pick in compensation, or trading him now, while his value is at its peak, for a collection of prospects who may help us for 5+ years.

 

Is 1yr Dye > 5+ years of production from one/more prospects?

 

You can use the previous philosophy for all our players, but realistically, I understand we can't just unload the entire team. Of the three (Dye, Buehrle, Iguchi), I would bet atleast one resigns. All three would be considered Class-A FA regardless, so we're bound to load up on sandwich picks if nothing else.

Edited December 8, 2006 by Flash Tizzle

[CanOfCorn]

Yes.

 

 

/end thread

[ptatc]

Williams can't reasonably trade all upcoming FA's if he has any intentions of assembling a World Series contender. I believe it's possible, however, to have a balance. Trade several for compensation, and keep the remaining players. If they are signed to contract extensions, great. If not, we'll receive draft picks.

 

I believe at this current time it's vital to restock our minor league system because it's fairly baron. If the players you mentioned were not to be traded, or sign extensions, and end up leaving our club, who replaces them? Perhaps in the future, when Williams shows rededication towards a contributing farm system, we'll have in house solutions for RF or 2B who wouldn't take 4 years to finally contribute.

 

What's worse -- trading Dye one season before his impending free agency and receiving a draft pick in

 

Everyone who has played for Birmingham is a baron

 

Sorry, thought I would add a little humor.

[YASNY]

Sorry, but this thread is reactionary ... to say the least.

[witesoxfan]

Does anyone know Floyd's status option wise? I've heard from a few people that he is out of options which doesn't sound right seeing as how he's only been up twice.

 

Don't know for it sure, but I've heard one. He's been called up to the majors 3 times, but the first time was a September call-up...Cheat posted about it over at SSS.

 

Its good news to say the least

[Kalapse]

Don't know for it sure, but I've heard one. He's been called up to the majors 3 times, but the first time was a September call-up...Cheat posted about it over at SSS.

 

Its good news to say the least

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the September callups don't count as wasted options so I only counted it as 2 callups. I'll have to do a little research I suppose.

[YASNY]

"Options"

After three years as a pro, a player must be protected on a team's 40-man roster, or he is eligible for the Rule 5 draft (more on that later). Once he's served those three years, and assuming he is added to the 40-man roster, his club then has what are called "options" on him.

 

When a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the 25-man Major League roster, he is on "optional assignment." One common misconception about the rules is that a player may only be "optioned out" three times. Actually, each player has three option years, and he can be sent up and down as many times as the club chooses within those three seasons.

 

When you hear that a player is "out of options," that means he's been on the 40-man roster during three different seasons, beginning with his fourth as a pro, and to be sent down again he'll have to clear waivers (more on those below).

 

Again .. this may be out of date due to the CBA.

[Gene Honda Civic]

One option remaining.

 

Can we dump pollyannas from the bandwagon?

[Vance Law]

Williams can't reasonably trade all upcoming FA's if he has any intentions of assembling a World Series contender. I believe it's possible, however, to have a balance.

 

Balance? what balance? how could he possibly sign some free agents, and not others. he clearly just unloaded a guy with a year left on his contract. the only possible conclusion from that must be that all free agents, no, every player who's not a rookie will be traded. this will be called a "small market" philosophy, of the 2 types of philosophies (small and large market- never mind that we have a top 5 payroll). because this is "small market" philosophy and because the rules of a small market philosophy are that you ONLY have young, cheap players, it is clear that we will be trading all of our players. that is the conclusion. how could he do anything else? it is december and baseball starts in 4 months. if it hasn't happened in the past week , it will not, no, can not happen this year or in future years. we traded one of our extra starters who had a year left on his contract which we have been expecting for a year and a half and therefore it is clear that we are selling the whole team.

[Kalapse]

One option remaining.

 

Can we dump pollyannas from the bandwagon?

Solid, always comming through in the clutch.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Incedently, Neal Cotts, who we just traded technically has all of his remaining options left after getting put on the 40-man in late August of '03 and never making a return to the minors.

 

However, should he suck and the Cubs think that they can send him back to AAA Iowa, I believe that he has the right to refuse assignment as a player with 3 consecutive uninterupted years on the major league roster.

 

This is part of the reason he was traded. If the Sox believe that Logan and Thornton are better LH options out of the pen, taking them north out of spring training, they were in danger of Neal becoming a free agent and losing him for nothing.

Edited December 8, 2006 by Gene Honda Civic

[southsideirish71]

I am not attacking this thread, but threads in the nature of the reactionary bulls*** due to reading a few Tribune paid writers and some shock jocks on the radio.

 

These constant threads on how either A.) Reinsdorf is cheap(with a very large and expensive payroll) B.) The world is ending because we ditched a pitcher who had a mid 4 ERA and had a mid 80s fastball for most of the year whom gave up 32 dongs and are now including our number 1 pitching prospect that everyone has been clamoring for to jump into the rotation C.) Worry about similiar moves that will make us competitive for the next 4 to 5 years.

 

These are all dumb threads. Reading a dumb article in a paper by a guy who gets paid by the cubs, and then repeating his "concerns" like a parrot is not original. His employer just paid a fortune for poo and crap and is calling it a number 2 starter. Now think about that for a second. What would you say, if we signed Ted "I am not all that good" Lilly and made him our number 2 starter for about 40 mill for 4 years. I dont think that the same people would be applauding and yelling words of encouragement to our management team. I dont want to overpay for Butter Parque, I dont want a number 1 starter of Felix Diaz in a few years because we let everyone of our starters go to FA without getting something back. And paying pitchers whom most of this board b****ed and moaned about how this guy isnt an ace, and how this guy is declining, a s***load is dumb. You know it would be nice if we had a young good rotation like the braves did, and spent our money smart on good position players. We are not the freakin Marlins but we are not the Yankees. We need to spend our money, and spend we do, on good decisions. People freaking b****ed in the first 2 months about all of the money we give Garland, and now the same people are b****ing that if we trade him we will never recover.

[SoxFan562004]

alot of this is reaction to the "espn'ing" of baseball. ESPN decided to dump a ton of focus on the winter meetings, and write and report winner/loser segments after they were over.

[YASNY]

I am not attacking this thread, but threads in the nature of the reactionary bulls*** due to reading a few Tribune paid writers and some shock jocks on the radio.

 

These constant threads on how either A.) Reinsdorf is cheap(with a very large and expensive payroll) B.) The world is ending because we ditched a pitcher who had a mid 4 ERA and had a mid 80s fastball for most of the year whom gave up 32 dongs and are now including our number 1 pitching prospect that everyone has been clamoring for to jump into the rotation C.) Worry about similiar moves that will make us competitive for the next 4 to 5 years.

 

These are all dumb threads. Reading a dumb article in a paper by a guy who gets paid by the cubs, and then repeating his "concerns" like a parrot is not original. His employer just paid a fortune for poo and crap and is calling it a number 2 starter. Now think about that for a second. What would you say, if we signed Ted "I am not all that good" Lilly and made him our number 2 starter for about 40 mill for 4 years. I dont think that the same people would be applauding and yelling words of encouragement to our management team. I dont want to overpay for Butter Parque, I dont want a number 1 starter of Felix Diaz in a few years because we let everyone of our starters go to FA without getting something back. And paying pitchers whom most of this board b****ed and moaned about how this guy isnt an ace, and how this guy is declining, a s***load is dumb. You know it would be nice if we had a young good rotation like the braves did, and spent our money smart on good position players. We are not the freakin Marlins but we are not the Yankees. We need to spend our money, and spend we do, on good decisions. People freaking b****ed in the first 2 months about all of the money we give Garland, and now the same people are b****ing that if we trade him we will never recover.

 

[southsider2k5]

Here is what it would take to keep this team together, as far as I would guess for 2008 and 2009 (numbers in millions of dollars). Basically I am taking the contracts of this fall, and using those as a basis to guess where salaries will be in the years that these players don't have deals signed.

 

 

Starting Pitching

Buehrle- 17.0/17.0

Garcia- 14.0/14.0

Garland- 12.0/15.0

Vazquez- 12.0/14.0

Contreras- 10.0/10.0

 

totals 55.0/70.0

 

Just by my guesses, we would have $70 million dollars wrapped up in the old starting 5 by 2009. Now keep in my we would still have to give huge raises to Joe Crede (say 15.0) and Jermaine Dye (probably also in the 15.0 range)to keep them around, not to mention guys like Iguchi (probably at least 6.0-7.0, if not more), who is now making less the Mark DeRosa for perspectives sake. Even if you drop Garcia and add back McCarthy, Bmac would be hitting his first arb year in 2009, so his salary would be taking a nice jump, not to mention that a few of the main bullpen all hitting their late arbitration years, and seeing their numbers jump big time.

 

To keep this team as is would take something in the area of $130 in 2008, and $150 million by 2009. This team is maxed out as far as revenue sources, because their park was pretty close to sold out this year, and they also didn't have all of the extra playoff revenues coming in, which was balanced out by the addition of a few higher price seats, a new sponsor, and higher comcastnet revenues. Pretty much unless you want to pay an extra 50% for your tickets, this team cannot pay the kind of salaries it would take to bring back all of these players.

[YASNY]

Here is what it would take to keep this team together, as far as I would guess for 2008 and 2009 (numbers in millions of dollars). Basically I am taking the contracts of this fall, and using those as a basis to guess where salaries will be in the years that these players don't have deals signed.

Starting Pitching

Buehrle- 17.0/17.0

Garcia- 14.0/14.0

Garland- 12.0/15.0

Vazquez- 12.0/14.0

Contreras- 10.0/10.0

 

totals 55.0/70.0

 

Just by my guesses, we would have $70 million dollars wrapped up in the old starting 5 by 2009. Now keep in my we would still have to give huge raises to Joe Crede (say 15.0) and Jermaine Dye (probably also in the 15.0 range)to keep them around, not to mention guys like Iguchi (probably at least 6.0-7.0, if not more), who is now making less the Mark DeRosa for perspectives sake. Even if you drop Garcia and add back McCarthy, Bmac would be hitting his first arb year in 2009, so his salary would be taking a nice jump, not to mention that a few of the main bullpen all hitting their late arbitration years, and seeing their numbers jump big time.

 

To keep this team as is would take something in the area of $130 in 2008, and $150 million by 2009. This team is maxed out as far as revenue sources, because their park was pretty close to sold out this year, and they also didn't have all of the extra playoff revenues coming in, which was balanced out by the addition of a few higher price seats, a new sponsor, and higher comcastnet revenues. Pretty much unless you want to pay an extra 50% for your tickets, this team cannot pay the kind of salaries it would take to bring back all of these players.

 

Facts, figures and common sense.... Bah! Where is the reactionary, off the cuff, EMOTIONAL side of this?

[jackie hayes]

Here is what it would take to keep this team together, as far as I would guess for 2008 and 2009 (numbers in millions of dollars). Basically I am taking the contracts of this fall, and using those as a basis to guess where salaries will be in the years that these players don't have deals signed.

Starting Pitching

Buehrle- 17.0/17.0

Garcia- 14.0/14.0

Garland- 12.0/15.0

Vazquez- 12.0/14.0

Contreras- 10.0/10.0

 

totals 55.0/70.0

 

Just by my guesses, we would have $70 million dollars wrapped up in the old starting 5 by 2009. Now keep in my we would still have to give huge raises to Joe Crede (say 15.0) and Jermaine Dye (probably also in the 15.0 range)to keep them around, not to mention guys like Iguchi (probably at least 6.0-7.0, if not more), who is now making less the Mark DeRosa for perspectives sake. Even if you drop Garcia and add back McCarthy, Bmac would be hitting his first arb year in 2009, so his salary would be taking a nice jump, not to mention that a few of the main bullpen all hitting their late arbitration years, and seeing their numbers jump big time.

 

To keep this team as is would take something in the area of $130 in 2008, and $150 million by 2009. This team is maxed out as far as revenue sources, because their park was pretty close to sold out this year, and they also didn't have all of the extra playoff revenues coming in, which was balanced out by the addition of a few higher price seats, a new sponsor, and higher comcastnet revenues. Pretty much unless you want to pay an extra 50% for your tickets, this team cannot pay the kind of salaries it would take to bring back all of these players.

Not to mention how long the deals would be.

[EvilJester99]

I don't have a big problem with the Garcia deal simply because they will plug BMac in and we gained 2 prospects and saved some big cash...I don't however feel comfortable with trading a 2nd SP without a real plan for having another quality starter to take his place. I just don't want to see this merry go round of the 5th starter again.....certainly this is too early to start freaking out.

[AbeFroman]

As a further logical extension, Reinsdorf could really cut costs and protest the present market by shutting down baseball operations altogether.

 

Think of the money he'd save by not having to pay any baseball players at all!

 

Take a deep breath everybody. Just cause we traded an older pitcher on the declining side of his career one year before his contract expires doesn't mean the team the world is falling apart.

Edited December 8, 2006 by AbeFroman

[SoxHawk1980]

Actually there's probably a 98% chance that Floyd makes the 25 man roster next year either as the last guy in the pen or in the rotation if another starter is dealt and as Coop said yesterday on the radio Gio will be battling for a bullpen spot on the big club in Spring Training next season. If Gonzalez dominates in March you just might see both he and Floyd playing major rolls in Chicago next year, which probably isn't the best way to go but seems to be a fairly realistic scenerio.

Do you realize that neither Gio nor Floyd have EVER performed well at a level higher than AA? Floyd has gotten a number of chances in the majors and failed repeatedly. He's still got work to do in the minors. Gio is young for AA and still hasn't mastered that level yet. Neither of these guys are ready for the majors. Sure, they may get pushed into major league duty, but there is NO evidence that they are ready to be even mediocre in the majors. If either of these guys plays a "major roll in Chicago next year," we're in big trouble.

Edited December 8, 2006 by SoxHawk1980