Pinochet Dead at 91

[LowerCaseRepublican]

The former dictator responsible for human rights abuses of countless thousands of Chileans including extralegal torture and murders died.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/12/...t.ap/index.html

 

For all the capital punishment supporters here, it would have been great to see them celebrating. After all, one cold blooded murder makes a person evil. A few thousand makes him a Cold War hero to Reaganite and Thatcheresque conservatives.

 

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[Gregory Pratt]

Good bye, Pinochet. You were a monster.

[Texsox]

Enemies of our enemies are our friends. The list of people we have backed is truly embarrassing today. I know in some cases it is the lesser of two evils, but during that era we really picked some bad men to support.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

He was denied a state burial and is getting only a military burial on Tuesday.

 

Only military facilities were ordered to have their flags at half staff.

 

The President of Chile was actually one of the people tortured by Pinochet's regime so she's not too big a fan.

[Texsox]

Torture is the only way to get the truth

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Enemies of our enemies are our friends. The list of people we have backed is truly embarrassing today. I know in some cases it is the lesser of two evils, but during that era we really picked some bad men to support.

 

 

Sometimes you gotta get some dirt on your hands if you want the job done. When the end was ridding the world of Soviet Communisim its pretty hard to find means that aren't justifiable.

[Texsox]

Sometimes you gotta get some dirt on your hands if you want the job done. When the end was ridding the world of Soviet Communisim its pretty hard to find means that aren't justifiable.

 

Some of our friends on the payroll included Bin Laden, Hussein, Noriega, and lesser known, but no less evil people of all races and creeds. I'm not convinced we are any safer with the fall of the Soviet Union.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Some of our friends on the payroll included Bin Laden, Hussein, Noriega, and lesser known, but no less evil people of all races and creeds. I'm not convinced we are any safer with the fall of the Soviet Union.

 

 

Hmmn. Tens of thousands of nuclear warheads no longer targeted at us? Check

 

Millions of people on the continent of Europe free as opposed to being under the thumb of Communisim? Check.

[Texsox]

Hmmn. Tens of thousands of nuclear warheads no longer targeted at us? Check

 

Millions of people on the continent of Europe free as opposed to being under the thumb of Communisim? Check.

 

Hundreds of pounds of nuclear material missing, nuclear scientists for sale, Check

India, Pakistan, and North Korea all with nukes, Check.

 

Former USSR countries and their robust economies now that the citizens are out from under the rule of communism. Check.

 

Increasing crime in those same countries, check.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Hundreds of pounds of nuclear material missing, nuclear scientists for sale, Check

India, Pakistan, and North Korea all with nukes, Check.

 

Former USSR countries and their robust economies now that the citizens are out from under the rule of communism. Check.

 

Increasing crime in those same countries, check.

 

 

Is MUF a problem? Sure. Is it worse than having the end of the world come about over something as petty as a false radar signature as happened more than once during the Cold War? Nah.

 

In the odd occurance that you could get your hands on some plutonium without someone finding out about it, there's a lot more that goes into a bomb than that and someone's gonna figure out what you're up to before you can finish your little project. Why do you think that in the 15 years since Soviet Russia disappeared there hasn't been a nuclear incident?

 

 

 

OMG!!1!!11!!! Theres street crime in former Eastern Bloc countries?!?!!! SAY IT AINT SO!!!!!!!

[Texsox]

OMG!!1!!11!!! Theres street crime in former Eastern Bloc countries?!?!!! SAY IT AINT SO!!!!!!!

 

Somehow, according to you, we're better off that they aren't under soviet rule. Wouldn't it be even better if they lived even better?

 

I think we swapped one set of problems for another. Clearly you felt the former Soviet regime was more dangerous than the current trio of India, Pakistan, and North Korea. I believe these three are more dangerous.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Somehow, according to you, we're better off that they aren't under soviet rule. Wouldn't it be even better if they lived even better?

 

I think we swapped one set of problems for another. Clearly you felt the former Soviet regime was more dangerous than the current trio of India, Pakistan, and North Korea. I believe these three are more dangerous.

 

 

Indian and Pakistani relations have thawed considerably in the post Cold War era. It was once thought that they were on the brink of war over Kashmir but in recent years they have sat down and hammered out their differences.

 

North Korea is a joke. They bluster and talk a big game but they have a paper army that they cant feed, let alone the rest of their population, and are trying simply to bluff and bluster their way into concessions from the West rather than posing a serious threat.

[Texsox]

Yet these backwards people that can't feed themselves have nuclear weapons. I believe someone with nothing to lose is far more dangerous than someone with everything to lose. I wonder how much the next bin laden would pay for a nuke.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Yet these backwards people that can't feed themselves have nuclear weapons. I believe someone with nothing to lose is far more dangerous than someone with everything to lose.

 

 

The odds of the North Korean population overthrowing the current regime far outweighs the odds of them doing something stupid like using nukes and getting wiped off the map in return.

[Texsox]

The odds of the North Korean population overthrowing the current regime far outweighs the odds of them doing something stupid like using nukes and getting wiped off the map in return.

 

And you also have faith in their security. That the material can not be stolen? I suspect their security would be better than what the USSR had? No corrupt officials willing to sell a nuke to a terrorist group in exchange for millions?

 

Since we are safer today, do we need as large of a military?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

And you also have faith in their security. That the material can not be stolen? I suspect their security would be better than what the USSR had? No corrupt officials willing to sell a nuke to a terrorist group in exchange for millions?

 

Since we are safer today, do we need as large of a military?

 

 

The current threats we face are not at all related to whether or not the Soviets exist or not. Islamofascism was a problem even during the Cold War and their evolution to more lethal forms of terrorism is unrelated to the fall of Communism.

[Texsox]

The original comment was we trained and funded these guys. You responded that the fall of the USSR made it worth it. Now we have these guys to contend with and the organizations they created. Combine that with the proliferation of nuclear weapons adds up to a different, but equally dangerous threat. The Soviets also bailed out some of these countries when their crops failed, when famine struck, etc. Now it's all on our dime.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

The original comment was we trained and funded these guys. You responded that the fall of the USSR made it worth it. Now we have these guys to contend with and the organizations they created. Combine that with the proliferation of nuclear weapons adds up to a different, but equally dangerous threat. The Soviets also bailed out some of these countries when their crops failed, when famine struck, etc. Now it's all on our dime.

 

 

Point 1: Did I not just get through saying that terrorist organizations were a big problem even during the Cold War? Only thing different about them is that now their plots are far more lethal in nature as they struggle for their various aims.

 

Point 2: As I already said, the greatest threat India and Pakistan posed was that they would go to war with each other. This is far less likely now as their relations have thawed.

 

Additionally, the Indian and Pakistani bombs are not byproducts of the fall of Communisim and North Koreas bomb ( or feeble attempt at one ) is a result of the Pakistanis, not leftovers from Russia.

 

Point 3: This was my favorite one. The Soviets CAUSED nations to have problems with their crops by their collectivization policies. Anything they might have done to mitigate crop problems they themselves caused was far overshadowed by iron fisted communist oppression.

[Rex Kickass]

Nuke: Terrorist organizations that we face today were funded by the CIA, the federal government - and in the case of the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan (the cradle of Al-Qaeda) - even Israel herself.

 

All in the name of killing communists, we took poor extremists with a s***ty shotgun and a dream and armed them to the teeth with Stinger missiles and AK's. We trained them on how to use them to attack Soviet warheads. We taught them how to make their insurgency more effective.

 

That ultimately led to the creation of Bin Laden's organization. That ultimately led to September 11, 2001.

 

I love it when you boil your philosophy down simply. Any means necessary to defeat the Soviets. Even if the means cause thousands of innocents to die - in Chile, in Iraq, Iran, Nicaragua - and ultimately on our own soil five years ago.

 

Sometimes history is our greatest teacher. Sometimes means to an end have a way of biting our own ass years later.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Nuke: Terrorist organizations that we face today were funded by the CIA, the federal government - and in the case of the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan (the cradle of Al-Qaeda) - even Israel herself.

 

All in the name of killing communists, we took poor extremists with a s***ty shotgun and a dream and armed them to the teeth with Stinger missiles and AK's. We trained them on how to use them to attack Soviet warheads. We taught them how to make their insurgency more effective.

 

That ultimately led to the creation of Bin Laden's organization. That ultimately led to September 11, 2001.

 

I love it when you boil your philosophy down simply. Any means necessary to defeat the Soviets. Even if the means cause thousands of innocents to die - in Chile, in Iraq, Iran, Nicaragua - and ultimately on our own soil five years ago.

 

Sometimes history is our greatest teacher. Sometimes means to an end have a way of biting our own ass years later.

 

 

Nobody ever said the price would be cheap. Would all out war on the plains of Europe have suited you better?

[Rex Kickass]

You infer that not arming the mujahadeen would have created a war in Europe. There's no way that's true.

 

You infer that actively subverting democratically elected regimes in South and Central America was the only way to avoid a war in Europe. Again, patently false.

 

Cold War II had a vastly different and varied set of potential outcomes that could have been acheived other than "what we did" and "World War III."

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

You infer that not arming the mujahadeen would have created a war in Europe. There's no way that's true.

 

You infer that actively subverting democratically elected regimes in South and Central America was the only way to avoid a war in Europe. Again, patently false.

 

Cold War II had a vastly different and varied set of potential outcomes that could have been acheived other than "what we did" and "World War III."

 

 

So what? The other answer was to do nothing? Let the good vibes take over right? Let the commies take over in the Western Hemisphere. You sound a lot like the defeatists back in the 70s and 80s who said our only hope was to co-exist with the Soviets and hope cowboy Reagan didn't do anything stupid and start a war. You're exactly the same type that castigated Reagan for calling a spade a spade and labeling the Soviet Union as an "evil empire".

 

If people like you had their way, people who aren't willing to do what it takes to win, then the Berlin wall would still be standing, Eastern Europe would still be Communist and several Latin American countries would be serving as Soviet client states.

 

You may not like what we did but it worked and Soviet Communisim menaces us no more.

[Texsox]

So what? The other answer was to do nothing? Let the good vibes take over right? Let the commies take over in the Western Hemisphere. You sound a lot like the defeatists back in the 70s and 80s who said our only hope was to co-exist with the Soviets and hope cowboy Reagan didn't do anything stupid and start a war. You're exactly the same type that castigated Reagan for calling a spade a spade and labeling the Soviet Union as an "evil empire".

 

If people like you had their way, people who aren't willing to do what it takes to win, then the Berlin wall would still be standing, Eastern Europe would still be Communist and several Latin American countries would be serving as Soviet client states.

 

You may not like what we did but it worked and Soviet Communisim menaces us no more.

 

Yet when the Soviet menance was no more, and the military was cut back, you disagreed. Why?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Yet when the Soviet menance was no more, and the military was cut back, you disagreed. Why?

 

 

It was cut back far too deeply. Not only was the military scaled down too far but the intelligence services were gutted.

 

Peace dividend = good

 

Hollowing out our military and intelligence capabilities = bad

[YASNY]

It was cut back far too deeply. Not only was the military scaled down too far but the intelligence services were gutted.

 

Peace dividend = good

 

Hollowing out our military and intelligence capabilities = bad

 

I agree 100% with your answer.