WhiteSoxfan1986 Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 12:26 PM) Why? This dude is unproven at the ML level. What makes him worth a $15M per multiyear deal? He is unproven, but I would much rather have him for $15 million than Lilly or Meche for $10-11 million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 01:04 PM) If they bid that much and refuse to give anything close to market value, the commish should invalidate the bid. Otherwise, the posting system is pretty much dead. Not to mention that it's a black eye for MLB. His market value is hard to quantify. It's a matter of opinion. The Red Sox opinion is the one that matters since it's their dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 If the Red Sox don't go any higher than $7.5M per year they could lose their bid but possibly more important than that they could really piss off some Japanese teams. It's been stated quite a few times by major publications that if the Red Sox do agree to terms with Matz that it could set them up in a good position to sign Japanese talent in the future and if they do low ball him like they're doing right now it could really give them a black eye in the minds of Japanese teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 02:35 PM) His market value is hard to quantify. It's a matter of opinion. The Red Sox opinion is the one that matters since it's their dollars. Nope, the commish's opinion matters, too. Without a market we don't know market value. Obviously. But, c'mon, to say that there's no guide to his value is absurd. Multiple teams wanted to pay $20 mil+ just to talk to him. The Red Sox, the "opinion...that matters", valued him far more than those. How many teams would pay $20 mil just to bargain with Gil Meche? If you really believe that he would only get $7-8 mil on the fa market, you're wrong. If you ask for rock-solid proof, well, there's no proof that Mark Buehrle would get more than $500 k as a fa. Do you doubt that too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 01:51 PM) Nope, the commish's opinion matters, too. Without a market we don't know market value. Obviously. But, c'mon, to say that there's no guide to his value is absurd. Multiple teams wanted to pay $20 mil+ just to talk to him. The Red Sox, the "opinion...that matters", valued him far more than those. How many teams would pay $20 mil just to bargain with Gil Meche? If you really believe that he would only get $7-8 mil on the fa market, you're wrong. If you ask for rock-solid proof, well, there's no proof that Mark Buehrle would get more than $500 k as a fa. Do you doubt that too? I didn't say there is no guide to his value. I said it's hard to qauntify. To put words in someone's mouth is absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 When you say no one would give Gil Meche money to negotiate, you dont consider the fact that if Gil Meche played in Japan his stats may be much better. Japanese players do not always translate well to the US, its hit or miss. The fact that Boston will have to pay over $100mil to have a player who has never even pitched an inning of ML baseball is somewhat insane. There is a chance that Boston could have signed Zito and potentially saved money. Its hard to suggest that a better investment is $100mil to Matz over proven MLB talent. I believe Matz can wait until a time when he does not have to post. That means the 51mil that is going to his team will go directly to him. Right now that would have been 51mil + the reported 22 over 3 years. Making it an absurd $20mil per year. Boston made an insane bid, now its down to how badly does Matz want to play in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 04:18 PM) I didn't say there is no guide to his value. I said it's hard to qauntify. To put words in someone's mouth is absurd. Oh, bs. I didn't put words in your mouth. You asked what guide to his value suggests that he's worth $15 mil per. I answered that every contract signed this offseason, along with the bidding just to talk to him, along with every report as to his potential, suggests that he would not get much less than $15 mil. Those are my guides, and that's what I said. I never said, 'oh, he's worth exactly $15 mil dollars per year for x years.' If you want to say that there's nothing to suggest that he's worth more than $8 mil per, fine, argue that. But this semantic bs gets tiresome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 04:00 PM) Oh, bs. I didn't put words in your mouth. You asked what guide to his value suggests that he's worth $15 mil per. I answered that every contract signed this offseason, along with the bidding just to talk to him, along with every report as to his potential, suggests that he would not get much less than $15 mil. Those are my guides, and that's what I said. I never said, 'oh, he's worth exactly $15 mil dollars per year for x years.' If you want to say that there's nothing to suggest that he's worth more than $8 mil per, fine, argue that. But this semantic bs gets tiresome. You turned my words around then said it was absurd. That bs gets tiresome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 06:19 PM) You turned my words around then said it was absurd. That bs gets tiresome. No, I didn't. I'll say again, if you want to say Matsuzaka is not worth anything close to $15 mil per in this market, as you suggested in your question, then argue that. Otherwise, it'd be nice if had something to say. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 05:34 PM) No, I didn't. I'll say again, if you want to say Matsuzaka is not worth anything close to $15 mil per in this market, as you suggested in your question, then argue that. Otherwise, it'd be nice if had something to say. Cheers. Yes you did. I don't know if he's worth $15M or not. That's why I said it's hard to quantify. However, the Red Sox don't seem to think he's worth that. Keep in mind we are discussing a contract after the posting fee was paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 I'd bet that Selig would let Matsuzaka go to the Mets for negotiations if Boston offers a mediocre contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 10:19 PM) Yes you did. I don't know if he's worth $15M or not. That's why I said it's hard to quantify. However, the Red Sox don't seem to think he's worth that. Keep in mind we are discussing a contract after the posting fee was paid. No, no I didn't. I never said that you know he's worth $15 mil (or something close, as I never set a firm limit at $15 mil) or that you know he's not. Maybe you don't know. Not that it matters. Keep in mind that the posting fee is not "paid", nor will it be until a contract is struck. It only becomes an obligation when the contract is signed, so the contract does not come "after the posting fee was paid." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 09:57 PM) No, no I didn't. I never said that you know he's worth $15 mil (or something close, as I never set a firm limit at $15 mil) or that you know he's not. Maybe you don't know. Not that it matters. Keep in mind that the posting fee is not "paid", nor will it be until a contract is struck. It only becomes an obligation when the contract is signed, so the contract does not come "after the posting fee was paid." Whatever. This is getting ridiculous. I'm willing to bury the hatchet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 11:01 PM) Whatever. This is getting ridiculous. I'm willing to bury the hatchet. Okay. I'm happy to walk away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 10:12 PM) Okay. I'm happy to walk away. Good deal. Sometimes that's best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 Caveat: From the exchange, not the thread. I think this is a pretty damn interesting subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan562004 Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2694660 Seems they are about 3m a year apart. Both are at 6 years, Red Sox at 8, Boras and DM at 11 per, s0 18m over the life of the contract... they are cutting it close, but if I were to take a guess, I would think they could bridge that (put with the physical needing to be done, they likely have to get this done today) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Matsuzaka and Boras will fly back to Boston, according to the Boston Herald. If the $11 mil per over 6 is correct, wow. I can't imagine that would be Boras's idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Reports on ESPN 1000 say Matsuzaka is en route to take a physical, I'm guessing they end up at 9-10 mill per for 6 seasons... which is really 111 mill for 6 seasons, or rather 18.5 million per season. Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 The Sawks' gambit is pretty interesting. Bid a huge amount, then guilt the player into signing. Cuz once that enormous bid is known, you'll be reviled if you return to Japan. For all the horrible wizardry of Boras, he got f***ed on this deal, if it ends up at $10-11 mil over 6 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Dec 13, 2006 -> 12:02 PM) Reports on ESPN 1000 say Matsuzaka is en route to take a physical, I'm guessing they end up at 9-10 mill per for 6 seasons... which is really 111 mill for 6 seasons, or rather 18.5 million per season. Jesus Christ Compared to 16-17 million a season for Zito, or 16 million a year for 3 years of Schmidt, this deal doesn't turnout to be that out of line. Getting 6 years instead of the originally rumored 3, is the key here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Daisuke Matsuzaka headed to Boston on Wednesday with Red Sox officials, a sign Boston had reached a preliminary contract agreement with the star pitcher. "They all took off together," Red Sox owner John Henry said in an e-mail to The Associated Press. Team president Larry Lucchino said shortly after noon ET that the plane was leaving California. In prior days, agent Scott Boras had said he would not allow Matsuzaka to travel to Boston for a physical unless the sides had reached a preliminary agreement. "You should assume a deal is close or done," an official with knowledge of the negotiations said, speaking on condition of anonymity because no announcement had been made. In prior days, agent Scott Boras had said he would not allow Matsuzaka to travel to Boston for a physical unless the sides had reached a preliminary agreement. link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 If a deal has or is going to be struck, Theo Epstein and the Sox played this to absolute perfection. What a signing he would be from $8-11 million per. It is interesting to note that Dice-K is on the plane. He hadn't previously been allowed to meet with Red Sox personnel. Perhaps the uproar in Japan caused Matsuzaka to get involved and forced Boras to do what he selfishly never does and give in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 13, 2006 Author Share Posted December 13, 2006 QUOTE(redandwhite @ Dec 13, 2006 -> 10:32 AM) If a deal has or is going to be struck, Theo Epstein and the Sox played this to absolute perfection. What a signing he would be from $8-11 million per. It is interesting to note that Dice-K is on the plane. He hadn't previously been allowed to meet with Red Sox personnel. Perhaps the uproar in Japan caused Matsuzaka to get involved and forced Boras to do what he selfishly never does and give in. I agree...even when you factor in the amount they paid to post this is a pretty darn good signing, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Dec 13, 2006 -> 11:16 AM) I agree...even when you factor in the amount they paid to post this is a pretty darn good signing, imo. Assuming he winds up succeeding, or at least being a decent MLB pitcher, for the duration of his contract. If he starts having arm problems or loses velocity in a year or two, then this becomes one pretty bad deal for the BoSox. Daisuke Matsuzaka has reached a six-year, $52 million deal with the Red Sox, SI.com's Jon Heyman has learned.SI calls it official. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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