Daisuke Matsuzaka signs

[Texsox]

Wow Boras' supernatural powers don't work in Japan. Must just be stupid American GMs. Yet, many will still blame Boras when some GM makes an incredibly stupid decision on one of his players.

[greasywheels121]

Who knows if Boras is even upset. Saying Matsuzaka was worth $100M and then having him sign the next day for almost half of that could have been a bargaining ploy to get his price up a little bit.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Felix @ Dec 13, 2006 -> 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And what does this have to do with anything?

R&W was baiting, and I took it.

 

He claims the Red Sox have made the best 3 moves based on money and team needs.

 

They gave $70 million to a career NL player with a questionable attitude. I like JD Drew however.

 

Crisp sucked in CF last year, and the Red Sox don't have a true 4th OF. You think Mack was bad in CF, watch Pena.

 

Their catchers are overpaid, Mirabelli was arguably as bad as Widger last year, but at least the Sox didn't give up Bard and a reliever with an ERA around 1.

 

Speaking of relievers, how's that Boston bullpen? Foulke is gone, Timlin is back, Pine Tar hat is still there (but he was better as a starter,) and they are taking out their phenom closer to put him in a rotation that includes an aging Curt Schilling, overrated Josh Beckett (and he's not very good,) a knuckleballer with back problems, Jon Lester, Matt Clement (making around $10 million) and now they are gambling $100 million by throwing a Japanese starter in the mix.

 

Their third base situation is a joke with an overpaid (typical Boston) Mike Lowell who was bad after May last year, and Hinske is listed at as an outfielder on their team depth chart.

 

Ah yes, but bar none, The Red Sox have made the TOP THREE moves this offseason when you consider the holes they have.

 

QUOTE(redandwhite @ Dec 13, 2006 -> 01:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll be laughed at but the Red Sox made the three best signings of the offseason, without question in my opinion. Based on money, team needs, etc.

Yes you will be laughed at. Your team has a bunch of overpaid players (Both Catchers, 3B, SP, RP possibly Drew and "D-Mat") and still has "team needs." Third base, backup catcher and infielder (Cora sucks,) true 4th OF, middle relief pitching, possibly starting pitching, a gaping hole in the closer's role, and most important, THE ACCOUNTING OFFICE.

:lol:

Edited December 13, 2006 by santo=dorf

[Balta1701]

Their catchers are overpaid, Mirabelli was arguably as bad as Widger last year, but at least the Sox didn't give up Bard and a reliever with an ERA around 1.

Mirabelli is a Free Agent.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 13, 2006 -> 05:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mirabelli is a Free Agent.

Doug Mirabelli will remain with the Red Sox on a one-year contract, the Boston Herald reports.

 

He's certainly a better choice than Sandy Alomar Jr., Alberto Castillo and some of the other names that have been kicked around. With Mirabelli back, the Red Sox will use the same arrangement they have in past year, with Jason Varitek catching everyone except Tim Wakefield.

Source: Boston Herald

 

So where does this one fall? In between 2 and 3, or 1 and 2?

[Gene Honda Civic]

Mirabelli is a Free Agent.

who signed with the Red Sox.

[Balta1701]

who signed with the Red Sox.

If terms aren't disclosed, how can people say he's overpaid?

[maggliopipe]

B/c $51 mil is an enormous amount of money for a Japanese team, something like 300% of Seibu's annual payroll. Seibu already budgeted the money towards higher payroll, park improvements, etc. Imagine what the Sox could do with a $300 mil gift. If you return, the team can't use that to improve and the fans know he'll only stick around for one or two more years. Plus, from what I've read, there won't be any sympathy, since even the lowest offer is larger than his Japanese baseball salary. It doesn't sound as if he'd be welcomed back.

 

Thanks dude, that clears that up.

 

If they hadn't come to an agreement in the 30 day window, could he have been posted again next year? Or would he have to wait until free agency? (Sorry if this has already been answered previously in the thread).

[Balta1701]

Thanks dude, that clears that up.

 

If they hadn't come to an agreement in the 30 day window, could he have been posted again next year? Or would he have to wait until free agency? (Sorry if this has already been answered previously in the thread).

Yes, he could have posted next year as well if there had been no deal this year. He would have been a free agent in 2008 if it fell through both years.

[redandwhite]

This is to funny. I'll respond after the basketball game.

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Dec 13, 2006 -> 06:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

R&W was baiting, and I took it.

There was no such baiting. Anyone with a brain would consider the three acquisitions made this offseason by the Red Sox as the top five moves of the offseason thus far, I happen to place them 1,2, and 3 respectively.

They gave $70 million to a career NL player with a questionable attitude. I like JD Drew however.

Questionable attitude? Why? Because his agent is a prick? He's said all the right things throughout his career, anybody who questions his attitude is simply caught up in the hype of him being a super talent whose agent feels he should be compensated as such

 

Read up, champ. http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds..._keeping_faith/

Crisp sucked in CF last year, and the Red Sox don't have a true 4th OF. You think Mack was bad in CF, watch Pena.

Crisp sucked in center field last year!? And the Red Sox don't have a true 4th OF!? Haha. Excuse me while I laugh. Since all you want to do is compare the Red Sox and White Sox, I'd be glad too. As far as center field goes, the White Sox had the worst centerfield in all of baseball last year. Crisp and Pena are both twice the players that Brian Anderson is. Also, it strikes me as funny that you can suggest bringing in Crisp to play center field for the White Sox, but that he sucks for the Red Sox? Get your head out of your ass. As for Pena in center field? He'll never be asked to play that position so there is no point in even rebutting that idiotic statement.

Their catchers are overpaid, Mirabelli was arguably as bad as Widger last year, but at least the Sox didn't give up Bard and a reliever with an ERA around 1.

Varitek is about as overpaid as a Konerko or some other player the White Sox showed loyalty too. As for Mirabelli, he was awful, not much better than Widger. Jesus, did you just say something that made sense? Still, I'd rather not stunt Kottaras' progression and stick him in the back up role when a guy like Mirabelli can be a one year stop gap on the cheap end.

Speaking of relievers, how's that Boston bullpen? Foulke is gone, Timlin is back, Pine Tar hat is still there (but he was better as a starter,) and they are taking out their phenom closer to put him in a rotation that includes an aging Curt Schilling, overrated Josh Beckett (and he's not very good,) a knuckleballer with back problems, Jon Lester, Matt Clement (making around $10 million) and now they are gambling $100 million by throwing a Japanese starter in the mix.

I could just as easily say that the Red Sox have as deep of a bullpen as any and midway through the offseason have only one roster spot to fill. "That roster spot is the closer", you say? Both Tim Wakefield and Jon Papelbon have been very successful in that role, if something doesn't pan out from outside the rotation I'd be equally as comfortable with either of Wakefield and Papelbon, and I think Theo Epstein agrees. Also, You want to spin it that way? I could also just as easily say that Curt Schilling is a first ballot Hall of Famer and one of the best pitchers in the game today, a young guy with all the talent in the world and a chip on his shoulder like he's never had in his life in Josh Beckett, a knuckleballer whose been nothing short of successful in every spot he's been placed in Tim Wakefield, a young stud in Jon Lester who also has a chip on his shoulder and is not only fighting to become one of the 25, someone who is going to be working his butt off to be in the best shape of his life so that he can kick this cancer in the nuts and save his life. Oh, and lets not forget, widely considered the greatest Japanese pitcher of all time and someone projected by just about every scout whose ever seen him pitch as a perennial ace over here in the states in Dice-K Matsuzaka at a fraction of the cost of what mediocre pitchers (Lilly, Meche) are being paid. Matt Clement? It's proven to be a mistake, just as the Mirabelli trade was, people make them, you more than others.

Their third base situation is a joke with an overpaid (typical Boston) Mike Lowell who was bad after May last year, and Hinske is listed at as an outfielder on their team depth chart.

Mike Lowell is one of the best, if not the best, defensive third basemen in baseball. For an entire city who applauded Joe Crede solely for his defense when he was consistently a misguided offensive player throughout his entire career, it's laughable that you'd bring the Red Sox third base situation into this. There is still alot of off season left, Lowell could be back, he might not be. It's not like he's being relied upon and he'll most likely be batting 7th or 8th, which considering the White Sox had an anemic 7-9, makes me all cozy inside. As for Hinske, there has been some reported interest in him. If there isn't any, he's a fine option off the bench at $2.5 million and provides depth.

Ah yes, but bar none, The Red Sox have made the TOP THREE moves this offseason when you consider the holes they have.

Yes you will be laughed at. Your team has a bunch of overpaid players (Both Catchers, 3B, SP, RP possibly Drew and "D-Mat") and still has "team needs." Third base, backup catcher and infielder (Cora sucks,) true 4th OF, middle relief pitching, possibly starting pitching, a gaping hole in the closer's role, and most important, THE ACCOUNTING OFFICE.

:lol:

Your true colors and lack of baseball knowledge scream here. Might I ask you: What have been the three best moves of the offseason? Garcia for Floyd and Gonzalez? The White Sox got fleeced.

 

While Varitek may be overpaid, there is no denying it, if he's able to provide a full season of leadership to a rotation that's going to be one of the best in baseball, he's worth every darn penny. As for Mirabelli being overpaid.. it's being reported that he'll make $700,000 next year which is Sandy Alomar money. That's right, the same Sandy Alomar who provided nothing at all, and threw out 3 of 25 base runners on the season. Dreadful.

 

Third base, I explained. Lowell isn't even overpaid in this market to be totally honest. There is no overpaid pitcher on the Red Sox staff. There is no overpaid reliever in the Red Sox bullpen. Saying Drew and Dice-K are overpaid is just plain stupid. Again, what are the best moves of the season?

 

Cora sucks? Oh, of course.. I forgot Alex Cintron and Pablo Ozuna were gods gifts to the world. That's obsurd. He was incredible off the bench last season, as he always has been with the Sox as he's known his role and played it to near perfection.

 

No true fourth outfielder!? haha. Middle relief pitching!? Starting pitching!? hahaha.. When did Soxtalk become a haven for complete idiots. Go make a post about how Iverson is on his way to Golden St, you'll fit right in that way.

 

Oh, and good one. The accounting office.. funny..

 

Oh! And I almost forgot. Steve Phillips whose been dead wrong with everything this offseason came out with a blurb about how the Red Sox weren't going to get Clemens.

 

Just as they were going to get Bonds, just as they weren't going to strike a deal for Matsuzaka.

 

Odds are, Clemens will be in Boston by the end of the week.

[CWSGuy406]

Cora sucks? Oh, of course.. I forgot Alex Cintron and Pablo Ozuna were gods gifts to the world. That's obsurd. He was incredible off the bench last season, as he always has been with the Sox as he's known his role and played it to near perfection.

 

You know what? I agree with you. Cora and his .298 SLG% last season were quite incredible.

 

Just not in the way you meant it.

[redandwhite]

In my opinion, if you can play superb defensively all over the infield while being able to do all the little things as he did, you can be an excellent bench player, and thats the definition of Alex Cora.

[CWSGuy406]

In my opinion, if you can play superb defensively all over the infield while being able to do all the little things as he did, you can be an excellent bench player, and thats the definition of Alex Cora.

 

Superb? Uhh, no. Above average, yes, but superb is reserved for guys like Adam Everett.

 

How do I know that Cora isn't a great defender? Your own fanbase said so.

 

That's funny. You calling Cora "incredible" came in the same paragraph as your bashing of Cintron, despite the fact that Cintron is and will be the better bench player going forward.

 

That's okay though. Keep trying to rationalize how a player with a .298 SLG% is "incredible". "He did the little things"... haha, sounds like freakin' Timo.

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Dec 14, 2006 -> 02:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Superb? Uhh, no. Above average, yes, but superb is reserved for guys like Adam Everett.

 

How do I know that Cora isn't a great defender? Your own fanbase said so.

 

That's funny. You calling Cora "incredible" came in the same paragraph as your bashing of Cintron, despite the fact that Cintron is and will be the better bench player going forward.

 

That's okay though. Keep trying to rationalize how a player with a .298 SLG% is "incredible". "He did the little things"... haha, sounds like freakin' Timo.

He's a bench player, knew his role, did it well, end of story.

 

You keep going back to this slugging percentage when the White Sox had players who were relied upon with on-base percentages near the mendoza line. Keep trying to rationalize how players with .257 and .290 on-base percentages respectively are worth a lick. Or you could stop now and enjoy a cookie. Here:

 

 

Edit: I just wanted to add that picking the Cora piece out of my long post is foolish. We're talking about a bench player who in my opinion and the opinion of many others was a real good option off the bench, given his versatility.

Edited December 14, 2006 by redandwhite

[CWSGuy406]

He's a bench player, knew his role, did it well, end of story.

 

Well, not really, but if that's good for your psyche, then good for you!

 

You keep going back to this slugging percentage when the White Sox had players who were relied upon with on-base percentages near the mendoza line. Keep trying to rationalize how players with .257 and .290 on-base percentages respectively are worth a lick. Or you could stop now and enjoy a cookie.

 

Yes, because apparently young players in their first year of full-time major league action don't improve, and shortstops who play truely superb defense and slug .441 are bad baseball players. Riiight...

 

Edit: I just wanted to add that picking the Cora piece out of my long post is foolish. We're talking about a bench player who in my opinion and the opinion of many others was a real good option off the bench, given his versatility.

 

Really? Can you show me all these other people? Are they from the MLB.com message boards? The boys from SoSH, perhaps? Because I know the Red Sox fans at BTF, who are much more rational than you could ever dream of being, and I don't know a single one of them who thought Cora was "incredible".

 

But that's cool. Just make sure those Red sunglasses don't get too bright, mmkay pal?

[YASNY]

I hate Red Sox oriented threads. It's always the same thing.

[witesoxfan]

There was no such baiting. Anyone with a brain would consider the three acquisitions made this offseason by the Red Sox as the top five moves of the offseason thus far, I happen to place them 1,2, and 3 respectively.

 

Anyone with a brain? Dude, come on, knock that s*** off.

 

1. whichever team signs Marcus Giles

2. Jose Cruz to the Padres for $650K

3. Adam Kennedy to St. Louis for 3/$10

4. Ramirez to Seattle for Rafael Soriano (for Atlanta, obviously)

5. Jennings and Ascencio to Houston for Hirsh, Taveras, and Buccholz (for Colorado, obviously)

 

Throwing money at free agents in this market is not the wisest idea. The Red Sox moves haven't been as dumb as others, but I'd hardly call all 3 moves top 5 moves.

 

Varitek is about as overpaid as a Konerko or some other player the White Sox showed loyalty too. As for Mirabelli, he was awful, not much better than Widger. Jesus, did you just say something that made sense? Still, I'd rather not stunt Kottaras' progression and stick him in the back up role when a guy like Mirabelli can be a one year stop gap on the cheap end.

 

Paul Konerko is UNDERPAID. $12 million a year for .300 40 .900+, considering the market, is a steal.

 

Meanwhile, Varitek takes a s*** every 4 years or so and gets paid $9 mill to do so. Otherwise, he's a very solid hitter.

 

I'd hardly call him overpaid, but to compare him to Konerko is a bit ludicrous in my mind.

 

I could just as easily say that the Red Sox have as deep of a bullpen as any and midway through the offseason have only one roster spot to fill.

 

Dude, how? I see Okajima, Timlin, and Tavarez as the only ones even guaranteed to make the team, and Hansen is ridiculously young.

 

I guess mainly I'd like to hear an explanation defending that.

 

Both Tim Wakefield and Jon Papelbon have been very successful in that role, if something doesn't pan out from outside the rotation I'd be equally as comfortable with either of Wakefield and Papelbon, and I think Theo Epstein agrees.

 

Wakefield closed 8 years ago. And he was horrendous that season.

 

I'll give you Papelbon though.

 

I could also just as easily say that Curt Schilling is a first ballot Hall of Famer and one of the best pitchers in the game today

 

He shouldn't be if a first ballot HoFer if he is, but yeah, he is...how does that apply to today?

 

And, in my book, he's not one of the best. The best are the top 10, and he's not in it.

 

a young guy with all the talent in the world and a chip on his shoulder like he's never had in his life in Josh Beckett

 

He'll have to adjust the hell out of his game then, because he was horrendous last season. I mean, 36 homers? ERA of 5? His K/9, regardless of how great of a talent and how spectacular his stuff is, was 6.9. For comparison's sake, Ted Lilly, that of a $40 mill contract and mediocre stuff, had a K/9 of 7.9...that's a full strikeout better per 9.

 

a knuckleballer whose been nothing short of successful in every spot he's been placed in Tim Wakefield

 

Successful is such an arbitrary word. Johan Santana has been successful in the past 4 years, and so has Jon Garland. Tell me who you'd prefer.

 

By successful, you mean mediocre. There's no real argument against it.

 

"a young stud in Jon Lester who also has a chip on his shoulder and is not only fighting to become one of the 25, someone who is going to be working his butt off to be in the best shape of his life so that he can kick this cancer in the nuts and save his life."

 

I think the world of Lester, and I was happy as hell he is now cancer free...but he was mediocre last year. You're still preaching mediocrity.

 

"Oh, and lets not forget, widely considered the greatest Japanese pitcher of all time and someone projected by just about every scout whose ever seen him pitch as a perennial ace over here in the states in... "

 

...who still hasn't proven s*** (but we've had this argument, about his ability and his cotnract, so I'm not even going to touch it)

 

 

"Mike Lowell is one of the best, if not the best, defensive third basemen in baseball. For an entire city who applauded Joe Crede solely for his defense when he was consistently a misguided offensive player throughout his entire career, it's laughable that you'd bring the Red Sox third base situation into this."

 

That's when Joe Crede was making around the league minimum. And then he was the MVP of the playoffs. And then he had a pretty solid season last year.

 

You can compare Joe Crede to Mike Lowell in the baseball world all day long, but when it boils down to it, Crede's a better bargain than Lowell. Period.

 

"There is still alot of off season left, Lowell could be back, he might not be. It's not like he's being relied upon and he'll most likely be batting 7th or 8th, which considering the White Sox had an anemic 7-9, makes me all cozy inside."

 

First of all, Lugo had 2 good months last year. He was pretty much horrible every other month of the year. He's done that in the past too, so it's not like it's a one time thing. And he's mediocre defensively.

 

Secondly, the 7-9 wasn't bad, the 8-1 was anemic. It's a technicality issue, but your hate of Joe Crede is driving me up a wall.

 

 

 

"Your true colors and lack of baseball knowledge scream here. Might I ask you: What have been the three best moves of the offseason? Garcia for Floyd and Gonzalez? The White Sox got fleeced."

 

That did drive me up a wall.

 

FLEECED? That's an amazingly strong word for getting a top 30 pitching prospect and a former #4 overall pick back in return. Add to the fact that Kenny Williams saw both of these two extensively in the AFL, that Garcia is mediocre with diminished stuff and in the last year of his contract when the White Sox had no intent on having him resigned, and that the White Sox have McCarthy waiting in the wings, and there's no way you can say the Sox got "fleeced". Perhaps not enough value in return, but you can't say fleeced. That essentially means no chance of it working out for the Sox. That's a completely inane comment.

 

"While Varitek may be overpaid, there is no denying it, if he's able to provide a full season of leadership to a rotation that's going to be one of the best in baseball, he's worth every darn penny."

 

One of the best in baseball? GMAFB. I'll believe it when I see it.

 

"As for Mirabelli being overpaid.. it's being reported that he'll make $700,000 next year which is Sandy Alomar money. That's right, the same Sandy Alomar who provided nothing at all, and threw out 3 of 25 base runners on the season. Dreadful. "

 

Again, I'll believe it when I see it. If so, it's not a bad contract.

 

"Third base, I explained. Lowell isn't even overpaid in this market to be totally honest. "

 

And Paul Konerko is????

 

"There is no overpaid pitcher on the Red Sox staff. "

 

I seem to recall them spending a grand total of rougly $17 mill a year on Matsuzaka, even if he only gets $9 mill a year or so. I don't care who the pitcher is, $17 mill is a lot, and probably overpaying.

 

$13 mill or so for Schilling is quite a bit too, especially with the uncertainty of his performance due to his age.

 

 

"Saying Drew and Dice-K are overpaid is just plain stupid."

 

No, it's being of the mind that regardless of talent, or regardless of their price to market value, their price figures are ridiculous.

 

I've argued Matsuzaka, and Drew is a player who's coming off a year with an .891 OPS and who has a history of injuries getting $14 mill a year. That's a ridiculous figure for a player who has yet to prove he can stay healthy. I like Drew a lot, and I think he'll be fine, but to say you it's impossible to say they are overrated is stupid.

 

 

"No true fourth outfielder!? haha. Middle relief pitching!? Starting pitching!? hahaha.. When did Soxtalk become a haven for complete idiots. Go make a post about how Iverson is on his way to Golden St, you'll fit right in that way. "

 

Keep that s*** out of here dude, seriously. That's f***ing ridiculous.

 

"Odds are, Clemens will be in Boston by the end of the week."

 

I completely doubt this, but even so, what are the odds he keeps his ERA below 4 upon moving to the AL and to a division that actually has legitimate offenses? Probably low.

 

 

 

EDIT: I couldn't fit 18 quotes into one post

Edited December 14, 2006 by witesoxfan

[RockRaines]

Cora sucks? Oh, of course.. I forgot Alex Cintron and Pablo Ozuna were gods gifts to the world. That's obsurd. He was incredible off the bench last season, as he always has been with the Sox as he's known his role and played it to near perfection.

 

No true fourth outfielder!? haha. Middle relief pitching!? Starting pitching!? hahaha.. When did Soxtalk become a haven for complete idiots. Go make a post about how Iverson is on his way to Golden St, you'll fit right in that way.

So why are you on a white sox board again?

 

I hate Red Sox oriented threads. It's always the same thing.

Yet its continually allowed to happen.

[southsideirish71]

So why are you on a white sox board again?

Yet its continually allowed to happen.

 

 

Its the same MO. Rednwhite comes over here to tell us how everything that we do is overrated by our fans, or that it isn't quite as good as his beloved Red Cubs. Then everything that Theo does is annointed by the Lord God himself, because he is the chosen one.

 

When one starts bashing any part of the Konerko signing, and then over rates Cora then the objective glasses are off, and they are drunk on Red Cub juice.

[fathom]

Its the same MO. Rednwhite comes over here to tell us how everything that we do is overrated by our fans, or that it isn't quite as good as his beloved Red Cubs. Then everything that Theo does is annointed by the Lord God himself, because he is the chosen one.

 

When one starts bashing any part of the Konerko signing, and then over rates Cora then the objective glasses are off, and they are drunk on Red Cub juice.

 

It's the same person that didn't understand why we thought the Cintron for Baj deal wasn't a massive steal for the Sox last year, yet Arroyo for Wily Mo was an amazing deal by the Red Sox. I can't wait until the Red Sox fans turn on Julio Lugo once he starts throwing and booting the ball all over the field. Lugo is a class act though...just like Wil Coredo.

[Milkman delivers]

Wow, harsh words from redandwhite. That shouldn't be tolerated.

[aboz56]

Did SonsofSamHorn close or something?

[redandwhite]

Almost all of my posts are in Pale Hose Talk. My MO has always been the same. If I say something based on the Red Sox, I'm not going to sit and be mocked when some idiot is wrong in my opinion. I'll just have to deal with the fact that there are some people who don't know two s***s about baseball and laugh at it. I told Yasny, Wite, etc. that from now on, that's what I'll be doing. Unless of course I'm baited with nonsense like Dorf posted.

[RockRaines]

My MO has always been the same. If I say something based on the Red Sox, I'm not going to sit and be mocked when some idiot is wrong in my opinion. I'll just have to deal with the fact that there are some people who don't know two s***s about baseball and laugh at it.

It looks like your MO is just to insult others who dont share your opinion on the Red Sox. Usually apologies or explanations of bad behavior do not include calling people idiots, and claiming that you know so much more about baseball than others. A kid your age still has much to learn about the game and about how the MLB is run, maybe that should be something you need to think about as well.