The Problem with Illegal Immigration raids.

[southsider2k5]

Southsider,

 

Nowhere in that article did it say that Swift was hiring at the same wage. My wager is that Swift just upped their pay a few bucks an hour so that they'd attract legal workers.

 

Imagine that, American's want jobs that they can support their families with... Here is a silly thought, maybe we wouldn't need a minimum wage if we didn't allow half a million new illegals into the country every year? Maybe then we wouldn't allow corporations to artificially keep wage levels down, and we wouldn't need the government deciding living wages. But then again the wages are a secondary point. Its the actual jobs that are the point. I never hear that illegals do jobs American's don't want to do AT A HIGHER WAGE, the mantra is always they are jobs American's don't want, which is a load of crap IMO. All things being equal, a company would hire an illegal over a native anyday, even at the same wage, because they know they have absolute control over them. Do you think an illegal would file a complaint with OSHA? or start a labor union? Or file a lawsuit again their company? Of course not. If the company didn't think they would get caught, they would totally take the employee that they had complete control over, even if their were qualified, legal, interested workers at the same wage point.

[Jenksismyhero]

Imagine that, American's want jobs that they can support their families with... Here is a silly thought, maybe we wouldn't need a minimum wage if we didn't allow half a million new illegals into the country every year? Maybe then we wouldn't allow corporations to artificially keep wage levels down, and we wouldn't need the government deciding living wages. But then again the wages are a secondary point. Its the actual jobs that are the point. I never hear that illegals do jobs American's don't want to do AT A HIGHER WAGE, the mantra is always they are jobs American's don't want, which is a load of crap IMO. All things being equal, a company would hire an illegal over a native anyday, even at the same wage, because they know they have absolute control over them. Do you think an illegal would file a complaint with OSHA? or start a labor union? Or file a lawsuit again their company? Of course not. If the company didn't think they would get caught, they would totally take the employee that they had complete control over, even if their were qualified, legal, interested workers at the same wage point.

 

 

Agreed

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Imagine that, American's want jobs that they can support their families with... Here is a silly thought, maybe we wouldn't need a minimum wage if we didn't allow half a million new illegals into the country every year? Maybe then we wouldn't allow corporations to artificially keep wage levels down, and we wouldn't need the government deciding living wages. But then again the wages are a secondary point. Its the actual jobs that are the point. I never hear that illegals do jobs American's don't want to do AT A HIGHER WAGE, the mantra is always they are jobs American's don't want, which is a load of crap IMO. All things being equal, a company would hire an illegal over a native anyday, even at the same wage, because they know they have absolute control over them. Do you think an illegal would file a complaint with OSHA? or start a labor union? Or file a lawsuit again their company? Of course not. If the company didn't think they would get caught, they would totally take the employee that they had complete control over, even if their were qualified, legal, interested workers at the same wage point.

 

 

DINGA DINGA DING DING!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Spot on!!

[sox4lifeinPA]

Imagine that, American's want jobs that they can support their families with... Here is a silly thought, maybe we wouldn't need a minimum wage if we didn't allow half a million new illegals into the country every year? Maybe then we wouldn't allow corporations to artificially keep wage levels down, and we wouldn't need the government deciding living wages. But then again the wages are a secondary point. Its the actual jobs that are the point. I never hear that illegals do jobs American's don't want to do AT A HIGHER WAGE, the mantra is always they are jobs American's don't want, which is a load of crap IMO. All things being equal, a company would hire an illegal over a native anyday, even at the same wage, because they know they have absolute control over them. Do you think an illegal would file a complaint with OSHA? or start a labor union? Or file a lawsuit again their company? Of course not. If the company didn't think they would get caught, they would totally take the employee that they had complete control over, even if their were qualified, legal, interested workers at the same wage point.

 

Didn't this guy start a labor union/worker's revolution?

 

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Didn't this guy start a labor union/worker's revolution?

 

 

 

Pound-for-pound one of the greatest boxers of all time...

[Texsox]

Imagine that, American's want jobs that they can support their families with... Here is a silly thought, maybe we wouldn't need a minimum wage if we didn't allow half a million new illegals into the country every year? Maybe then we wouldn't allow corporations to artificially keep wage levels down, and we wouldn't need the government deciding living wages. But then again the wages are a secondary point. Its the actual jobs that are the point. I never hear that illegals do jobs American's don't want to do AT A HIGHER WAGE, the mantra is always they are jobs American's don't want, which is a load of crap IMO. All things being equal, a company would hire an illegal over a native anyday, even at the same wage, because they know they have absolute control over them. Do you think an illegal would file a complaint with OSHA? or start a labor union? Or file a lawsuit again their company? Of course not. If the company didn't think they would get caught, they would totally take the employee that they had complete control over, even if their were qualified, legal, interested workers at the same wage point.

 

 

Agreed. I am surprised that you now support higher wages. When the Dems were pushing for increases in the minimum wage, that was going to kill businesses and the owners.

 

Just keep in mind how low our unemployment rate has been for the past couple decades. A meat packing plant is about the worst job you can imagine. I'm not certain how many people are wanting to get in that career. Long, monotonous hours, cold, sharp knives, blood, etc. The meat packing companies have been begging for employees for a long time. Would you encourage your kid to take a job in a packing plant for $15/hour?

 

The other issue the meat industry faces is people eating less and less beef. With a huge increase in cost, that would further increase. I don't think the American public is ready for $8/pound ground beef. But we've killed or downsizes other industries and survived.

[EvilMonkey]

Agreed. I am surprised that you now support higher wages. When the Dems were pushing for increases in the minimum wage, that was going to kill businesses and the owners.

 

Just keep in mind how low our unemployment rate has been for the past couple decades. A meat packing plant is about the worst job you can imagine. I'm not certain how many people are wanting to get in that career. Long, monotonous hours, cold, sharp knives, blood, etc. The meat packing companies have been begging for employees for a long time. Would you encourage your kid to take a job in a packing plant for $15/hour?

 

The other issue the meat industry faces is people eating less and less beef. With a huge increase in cost, that would further increase. I don't think the American public is ready for $8/pound ground beef. But we've killed or downsizes other industries and survived.

I worked in a meat packing plant, albeit a very small one, with only about 25 employees. On that level, at least, it wasn't that bad, I just hated the constant cold. I did have one incident with a dead, bleeding pig running towards me that sorta freaked me out for a moment, but otherwise it was a pretty interesting gig. Being a small place, I did many different things. Although it took me a while before I could eat sausage again. As for encouraging kids employment, I will encourage mine to do whatever they want to do (although I think porn may not be met with the same amount of enthusiasm as other choices). For the moment, my oldest is considering the military. But since he is only 13, that could change. Or it could stay the same.

[southsider2k5]

Agreed. I am surprised that you now support higher wages. When the Dems were pushing for increases in the minimum wage, that was going to kill businesses and the owners.

 

Just keep in mind how low our unemployment rate has been for the past couple decades. A meat packing plant is about the worst job you can imagine. I'm not certain how many people are wanting to get in that career. Long, monotonous hours, cold, sharp knives, blood, etc. The meat packing companies have been begging for employees for a long time. Would you encourage your kid to take a job in a packing plant for $15/hour?

 

The other issue the meat industry faces is people eating less and less beef. With a huge increase in cost, that would further increase. I don't think the American public is ready for $8/pound ground beef. But we've killed or downsizes other industries and survived.

 

Ah yes, the read and insert words here....

 

I have never, and will never, be in favor of artificial wage rates. The market will support, what the market can support. Everytime the government screws with things, they get messed because there are unintened consequences that come from moving wages away from their equalibrium point, which often makes things worse than if they had just left things alone.

[Balta1701]

Ah yes, the read and insert words here....

 

I have never, and will never, be in favor of artificial wage rates. The market will support, what the market can support. Everytime the government screws with things, they get messed because there are unintened consequences that come from moving wages away from their equalibrium point, which often makes things worse than if they had just left things alone.

Here's one of those places where you and I are going to fundamentally disagree. The problem I see is that the market will support things that are actually worse for people than they should be, because the market is an abstract thing. The market has a different goal from what the government does; the market's goal is to turn a profit. The government on the other hand has the goal of, or at least should have the goal of doing what is best for the American people. Luckily for us, in a decent number of cases, those 2 goals line up. But in this case, I contend that they simply do not, and the American people and the American system are better off if there is some sort of wage floor.

[southsider2k5]

Here's one of those places where you and I are going to fundamentally disagree. The problem I see is that the market will support things that are actually worse for people than they should be, because the market is an abstract thing. The market has a different goal from what the government does; the market's goal is to turn a profit. The government on the other hand has the goal of, or at least should have the goal of doing what is best for the American people. Luckily for us, in a decent number of cases, those 2 goals line up. But in this case, I contend that they simply do not, and the American people and the American system are better off if there is some sort of wage floor.

 

There are two sides to that coin though. The flip side of artificially higher wages are many fold... Higher wages mean higher prices, less total employment, less effecient companies, just to name a few things. How do any of those things benefit American citizens? The biggest problem is that the governments goal isn't really what's best for the people, its goal is what is best for reelection. If they were really worried about what was best for the American people the govenment wouldn't be worried as much about minimum wage, they would be worried about much more pressing needs such as social security, immigration, and health care, which affect many more American's adversely than does the min wage.

[NorthSideSox72]

Ah yes, the read and insert words here....

 

I have never, and will never, be in favor of artificial wage rates. The market will support, what the market can support. Everytime the government screws with things, they get messed because there are unintened consequences that come from moving wages away from their equalibrium point, which often makes things worse than if they had just left things alone.

 

 

Here's one of those places where you and I are going to fundamentally disagree. The problem I see is that the market will support things that are actually worse for people than they should be, because the market is an abstract thing. The market has a different goal from what the government does; the market's goal is to turn a profit. The government on the other hand has the goal of, or at least should have the goal of doing what is best for the American people. Luckily for us, in a decent number of cases, those 2 goals line up. But in this case, I contend that they simply do not, and the American people and the American system are better off if there is some sort of wage floor.

 

You both make excellent points here. But Balta, the market's goal is not just profit - its efficiency, which involves the consumer. If a firm gets too profitable, market forces tend to correct it in the form of competition. That does not always work, but often it does.

 

That said, the markets are not perfect, and they need "curbs" from the government to handle the outliers. That is why there is, and should be, a minimum wage. Its a safety check. And businesses can go around it (and do) all the time, usually by way of foreign labor. Which is, in my opinion, just fine.

 

Keep the minimum wage, increase the rate as proposed, build in a COLA, and then we don't have to mess with it ever again.

[southsider2k5]

Keep the minimum wage, increase the rate as proposed, build in a COLA, and then we don't have to mess with it ever again.

 

I do agree with this. If we are going to have a minimum wage, we need to take the political aspect out of it, and take the pricing power away from the government with a COLA ingredient.

[Balta1701]

There are two sides to that coin though. The flip side of artificially higher wages are many fold... Higher wages mean higher prices, less total employment, less effecient companies, just to name a few things. How do any of those things benefit American citizens? T

Well, here's the 3rd side to that coin (this is going to turn into a pretty wierd shape when you reply to it), the employment situation is not necessarily a simple economic system. In a purely simple system, yes, if you increase wages artificially, you will reduce employment. However, that neglects the potential feedbacks; because you've increased wages, you may also force a company to distribute its profits in some small extent to people who will actually spend the money, and thus you may drive up the demand for goods and services and in fact provide an economic stimulus.

 

As far as the evidence I've seen goes, raising the minimum wage is in fact a mixed bag when it comes to employment percentages. There were several minimum wage increases in the 90's, and during the late 90's, the employment situation improved vastly, to the point that if there was a negative impact due to the minimum wage increase, it was swamped out by everything else that was happening in the economy.

 

On the state level, the data is also at least to some extent mixed...Oregon pushed its minimum wage through the roof ($7.50) about 4 years ago, to predictions of economic ruin, and the state is seeing very strong growth now in employment, so much so that they're about to increase the minimum wage again (just grabbed that one because it's recent, as I said, there is a lot of data out there on both sides)

 

Naturally, like any multivariate system, if you push one variable too far, you're going to cause problems. If you push up a minimum wage too far, say a $25 an hour wage right now, yes, you will murder employers. And yes, there are always specific parts of society that are affected by any decision like this; you can always point to some portion of farm labor or teenage-employment and say yes, those types can be specifically hurt by a minimum wage increase, but with the feedbacks in the system, it can and in fact is a much more mixed story than the simple model of "wages go up, prices go up, sales go down, unemployment goes up".

[southsider2k5]

Well, here's the 3rd side to that coin (this is going to turn into a pretty wierd shape when you reply to it), the employment situation is not necessarily a simple economic system. In a purely simple system, yes, if you increase wages artificially, you will reduce employment. However, that neglects the potential feedbacks; because you've increased wages, you may also force a company to distribute its profits in some small extent to people who will actually spend the money, and thus you may drive up the demand for goods and services and in fact provide an economic stimulus.

 

As far as the evidence I've seen goes, raising the minimum wage is in fact a mixed bag when it comes to employment percentages. There were several minimum wage increases in the 90's, and during the late 90's, the employment situation improved vastly, to the point that if there was a negative impact due to the minimum wage increase, it was swamped out by everything else that was happening in the economy.

 

On the state level, the data is also at least to some extent mixed...Oregon pushed its minimum wage through the roof ($7.50) about 4 years ago, to predictions of economic ruin, and the state is seeing very strong growth now in employment, so much so that they're about to increase the minimum wage again (just grabbed that one because it's recent, as I said, there is a lot of data out there on both sides)

 

Naturally, like any multivariate system, if you push one variable too far, you're going to cause problems. If you push up a minimum wage too far, say a $25 an hour wage right now, yes, you will murder employers. And yes, there are always specific parts of society that are affected by any decision like this; you can always point to some portion of farm labor or teenage-employment and say yes, those types can be specifically hurt by a minimum wage increase, but with the feedbacks in the system, it can and in fact is a much more mixed story than the simple model of "wages go up, prices go up, sales go down, unemployment goes up".

 

Siting Oregon as an example of raising the minimum wage is actually sort of covered your last full paragraph accidentally. Certian states are going to be a lot more affected by a raise of the min wage, and those are obviously states that have a low prevailing wage. Most of those states are either one of, or a combination of two things, either a state with large urban/poor areas, or states on the Mexican border. Oregon is pretty much in the middle of the wage pack according to the BLS, a little above median, and a little below average nationally, which means that half of Ore are above what is a national average of $14.15 an hour, which also means they probably don't have as many people that would fall between 5.15 and 7.50. I would like to see that same comparison done in a state with a huge poor poplulation, like say Mississippi, which comes in with a median wage of $11.19 an hour.

[YASNY]

You are both right ... and both wrong. There has to be a balance. It's just a matter of finding that balance point.