Ahmadinejad's party losing in local elections

[southsider2k5]

"Increasing transparency" isn't ending the nuclear program. A nuclear Iran is a danger to the world. Period.

[Balta1701]

"Increasing transparency" isn't ending the nuclear program. A nuclear Iran is a danger to the world. Period.

Is it even worth pointing out in reply that under the nonproliferation treaty (to which both the U.S. and Iran are Signatories) Iran does have the right to develop nuclear technology for energy purposes, and inspections in the past have done a very good job of containing countries when they're actually allowed to proceed?

[southsider2k5]

Is it even worth pointing out in reply that under the nonproliferation treaty (to which both the U.S. and Iran are Signatories) Iran does have the right to develop nuclear technology for energy purposes, and inspections in the past have done a very good job of containing countries when they're actually allowed to proceed?

 

Just as much as it is worth pointing out Iran's repeated overtures towards the destruction of Israel, and their leaders religious beliefs that they destruction of Israel begins the rapture.

[Balta1701]

Just as much as it is worth pointing out Iran's repeated overtures towards the destruction of Israel, and their leaders religious beliefs that they destruction of Israel begins the rapture.

Which is all the more reason, to my eyes, to keep them from getting a nuclear weapon, something which is not happening with the current policies.

[southsider2k5]

Which is all the more reason, to my eyes, to keep them from getting a nuclear weapon, something which is not happening with the current policies.

 

The best way to be kept from making a nuclear weapon, is to not have any nuclear material in the first place. Its kind of hard to fire a guy without any bullets.

[Balta1701]

The best way to be kept from making a nuclear weapon, is to not have any nuclear material in the first place. Its kind of hard to fire a guy without any bullets.

And considering that Iran does have its own supplies of uranium-ore, I think that means we desperately need some sort of inspection regime in that country.

[southsider2k5]

And considering that Iran does have its own supplies of uranium-ore, I think that means we desperately need some sort of inspection regime in that country.

 

Dispite what they say, they are going to be doing whatever they want to be doing, just like North Korea did. They were bribed with everything in sight, complete with a Michael Jordan autographed basketball toted over by Bill Clinton himself, and they still had an undergroud weapons program going on all along. Talking to them, has not, and will not solve anything. This is a country that gets together every Friday after prayers and chants "Death to America" and "Death to Israel". Iran doesn't want a biscuit, they want our disctruction, and have been quite clear about it. Its not like this is a product of the evil Bush either. The Iran nuclear program has been going on since the 1950's. Besides even if they do get inspectors into the country, however we have to bribe them to do it, they will play the same shell game that Saddam did in Iraq, by moving stuff around, and stalling inspectors until they could tidy up the facilities that they wanted to visit. Appeasement does not work. Historically it hasn't worked, and it won't work today.

[Balta1701]

Dispite what they say, they are going to be doing whatever they want to be doing, just like North Korea did. They were bribed with everything in sight, complete with a Michael Jordan autographed basketball toted over by Bill Clinton himself, and they still had an undergroud weapons program going on all along. Talking to them, has not, and will not solve anything.

The plutonium which was used in the device North Korea test-detonated last summer was under U.N. lock and seal and monitored by cameras until 2002, and was reprocessed during early 2003. They were only able to build that bomb because the U.S. ignored them for around 4 years, and so they threw a tantrum. North Korea did not do whatever it wanted; it did not produce anything remotely successful on the line towards a nuclear weapon until they pulled out of the Nonproliferation treaty and the accords agreed to with the Clinton Admin.

[southsider2k5]

The plutonium which was used in the device North Korea test-detonated last summer was under U.N. lock and seal and monitored by cameras until 2002, and was reprocessed during early 2003. They were only able to build that bomb because the U.S. ignored them for around 4 years, and so they threw a tantrum. North Korea did not do whatever it wanted; it did not produce anything remotely successful on the line towards a nuclear weapon until they pulled out of the Nonproliferation treaty and the accords agreed to with the Clinton Admin.

 

So this tought us what? That if we let a madman refine plutomium, they can build a bomb whenever they get pissed off, right? So why would we ever let a man whose sole purpose is the destruction of other people, have a facility where he could begin doing just that??? NK always had their weapons program going on, which is why they had the ability to turn it into a weapon as quick as they did. If we had actually stepped up and stopped them years before they accumulated plutonium, they wouldn't have been able to to build a bomb in the first place. I am sorry but I don't see giving a man bent on destruction the means to do so, and then sit and try to convince him that he should not blow people up. It leaves us up the the whims of people like Kim Jung Il. We cannot appease Iran, I just won't buy that.

[Rex Kickass]

So what's the other option? Start a war? Let them arm themselves anyway? Why do so many people think that talking to someone should be a reward for good behavior. North Korea is not a three year old. It is a country with a legitimate right to self-determination and a right to defend itself as it sees fit. Just like the United States has that right as well.

 

If the United States or any other player on the world community doesn't like the way a specific state is handling their national defense, it has options to help enforce its agenda. Militarly, Diplomatically, Economically. In the case of North Korea - economic pressure really won't change much. We have a leader willing to starve his people to maintain his grip on power - so blocking trade really won't help much. Restarting the Korean war would destroy cities of millions in South Korea so that isn't much of an option either. What's the other option? Talking to North Korea - finding common ground and working to enhance both countries goals equally.

 

The same things work with Iran. You can work for regime change while maintaining a diplomatic relationship with a country that it is unfeasible for you to start military action against at the moment. Why should you? Because what are the alternatives? A nuclear Iran? A war with Iran? Something tells me that I prefer the talking first.

[southsider2k5]

Why should we bribe Iran to NOT nuke somebody? I don't get the mentality that we can just talk the rest of the world into doing something that is against their entire exsistance. There are people in the world who are dedicated to our destruction, no matter how much money we offer them to go away. Talking to Iran isn't going to prevent anything, and neither is bribing them. We have tried that all over the world, it doesn't work. Just look at Pakistan today. We have tried bribing them to help us out with the Taliban, what did it get us? They ceded over control of their territory to them. We got nothing. Appeasement doesn't work.

[Rex Kickass]

Negotiation does not equal appeasement.

[kapkomet]

Negotiation does not equal appeasement.

You can't "negotiate" with nutjobs who are hell bent on lying just to destroy you. What is there to "negotiate"? What do we give them, and what do they give us? There has to be a two way street, and there ain't in this case.

[Rex Kickass]

Hell bent on lying to destroy you? That could adequately describe us from their point of view. We used clearly wrong justifications to invade Iran's next door neighbor....

 

Whether you think they are whack jobs or not, a state that acts responsibly negotiates with other states to advance its interests. Reagan may have called the Soviet Union the "Evil Empire" but they still negotiated frequently.

[kapkomet]

Again, what is Iran's interest to negotiate with us? What is their incentive to do so?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Hell bent on lying to destroy you? That could adequately describe us from their point of view. We used clearly wrong justifications to invade Iran's next door neighbor....

 

Whether you think they are whack jobs or not, a state that acts responsibly negotiates with other states to advance its interests. Reagan may have called the Soviet Union the "Evil Empire" but they still negotiated frequently.

 

 

What could we hope to gain from negotiating with Iran? Their Islamofascist government is sponsoring terrorism, fueling sectarian strife in Iraq, threatening to destroy Isreal, and involved in a crash program to develop atomic arms. Their leader is a certified madman. The remainder of their government is full of radical clerics who rule not from reason but from a well worn copy of the Koran (and you people complain about Bush being too religous). The only effect trying to talk to them will have is to give them more time to build their nukes.

 

As grave a threat as Soviet Russia was at least they could be reasoned with. These Islamofascist savages are intent on fulfilling their own version of the apocalypse and by us sitting on our hands hemming and hawing about "diplomacy" we're allowing them time to develop the means to do it. Diplomacy has about a 1 in 100 chance of working. I fear the only thing between Iran and nuclear weapons would be another Osarik style raid on their nuclear installations. If we dont do it, you can bet your ass the Isrealies will.

[southsider2k5]

1 more point I missed on NK especially, which I have 100% confidence will happen again with Iran is that there are two distinct steps on the road to having a nuclear bomb, only one of which the UN actually has the ability to monitor. Just because you enrich uranium or plutonium, doesn't mean you have a nuclear bomb. It takes more to make a bomb than to strap enriched materials on a bomb. All that makes is a dirty bomb. If a country is able to get a nuclear bomb built, that means not only did they highly enrich nuclear material, but they went out and got the highly specialized materials need to turn that into a bomb. Not only was NK enriching uranium under the worlds nose for years, they were also aquiring bomb making materials, and no one bothered to stop either one. Guess what, now we have one of the worlds most unpredicatable and desparate men with a nuke. I'd be willing to be money we have the exact samething happen in Iran within 10-15 years after we appease them.

[southsider2k5]

And of course... they aren't trying to get nuclear weapons at all, their program is totally peaceful...

 

http://time-blog.com/real_clear_politics/2...vil_update.html

 

Con Coughlin of the Daily Telegraph reports that two members of the Axis of Evil are busy collaborating:

 

North Korea is helping Iran to prepare an underground nuclear test similar to the one Pyongyang carried out last year.

Under the terms of a new understanding between the two countries, the North Koreans have agreed to share all the data and information they received from their successful test last October with Teheran's nuclear scientists.

 

North Korea provoked an international outcry when it successfully fired a bomb at a secret underground location and Western intelligence officials are convinced that Iran is working on its own weapons programme.

 

A senior European defence official told The Daily Telegraph that North Korea had invited a team of Iranian nuclear scientists to study the results of last October's underground test to assist Teheran's preparations to conduct its own -- possibly by the end of this year.

[Balta1701]

Um, North Korea's test by most accounts wasn't a successful test.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Um, North Korea's test by most accounts wasn't a successful test.

 

 

So does that mean they're going to throw up their hands and quit? What they know already serves as another stepping stone to having a viable nuclear weapon.

[kapkomet]

Um, North Korea's test by most accounts wasn't a successful test.

Um, check again. After initial reports saying that, they figured out that it at least was a small nuclear explosion. And so what if it wasn't "successful"... if they are trying to sell this s*** to Iran, I guess we're supposed to "negotiate" with NK to make it stop.

[Rex Kickass]

Kap, since you've been so eager to throw out diplomacy as an option... exactly what else is the US able or prepared to do right now?

[kapkomet]

No, I didn't. I said throw out NEGOTIATIONS. There's nothing to negotiate. It's not a contract dispute.

[southsider2k5]

Kap, since you've been so eager to throw out diplomacy as an option... exactly what else is the US able or prepared to do right now?

 

*HUGS*

[Rex Kickass]

No, I didn't. I said throw out NEGOTIATIONS. There's nothing to negotiate. It's not a contract dispute.

 

Diplomacy and negotiation are the same thing. The sooner you accept it, the sooner you can begin to heal.... or something.