McCarthy Traded to Texas

[Balta1701]

i really think most of you are so wrong.

this will be a great deal for us, all the young arms we got are going to produce.

just trust me on this, this will be a trade for all to remember and in the long run praise.

have faith in KW- all of you .

To some extent I do have faith in KW. Last time I had doubts about a deal he made, it was key to winning us a world series. And it was the same sort of deal...he traded a bigger player for lesser players. But that deal also gave us more financial flexibility and pieces that could bring us an immediate benefit for the next year. I just can't see how this deal does that unless Danks is moved for someone else, and I feel McCarthy should have a lot more value than Danks based on his big league performance.

 

This deal could work out damn well, and the point I'm trying to make now is that I still wouldn't be happy with it, because I just think that even right now, BMac has more value than what we got for him. We win 3 world series with Danks, and while I think about it, I'll think we could have won 4 with the extra talent we should have gotten in a deal involving BMac.

[dasox24]

Anyone think the Sox will use the acquisition of Danks as leverage in a future drafting of his little brother?

One of the first things I thought of after this trade was that hopefully we'll be able to redraft Jordan Danks when he's eligible. I think he'll make a fantastic player someday, and baring injury, though, he'll be drafted too high for us. Although, I guess that means we will be able to draft him in 2 years according to those who think this trade means we're gonna finish 4th in the AL Central and completely suck... whatever...

 

This team is still a 90-win team. I truly believe getting rid of Garcia was addition by subtraction, which sometimes has to be done. Also, while losing McCarthy does hurt us this year, it doesn't make much of a difference if the other 4 don't pitch well. Basically, if Contreras, Garland, Beurhle, and Vazquez pitch like they're capable, then whoever our 5th starter is won't matter b/c the other 4 will be so dominant. Though if the other 4 pitch like last year, it won't matter who the 5th starter is b/c we're not gonna be in the playoffs anyway.

[bjm676]

Still trying to figure out the logic behind this. KW wanted to stockpile pitchers and go younger, I presume. But McCarthy was already young, etc.

 

I'm just scratching my head at this one. The 5th starter ferris wheel starts again.

 

Let's hope something bigger is in the works.

 

I won't let it ruin my Christmas, of course.

[jphat007]

I like it. Two pretty good pieces for one guy I wasn't totally sold on. I think McCarthy would have recovered, but his numbers were really scary on a per inning basis last year, and while I think some of it was the bullpen, I'm not convinced it all was. He's gonna give a ton of homers next year. I think it was going to be that way in Chicago or now in Texas.

 

As for this hurting us much in 2007, I don't buy it. I think Bmac would have been around a 4.20 to 4.70 next year, and I think one of the other guys can do that, about like Freddy did last year. I hope he really gives a shot to somebody like Danks, Gio or Charlie, cause I'm not a huge fan of Floyd until we have some time to work with him.

 

But I can understand the angst as well. A lot of people really liked McCarthy and his promise from 05. But I trust KW. His moves work a lot more than they don't.

Edited December 24, 2006 by jphat007

[soxpride77]

I think it is time for somebody to cue the Haeger fan club sig. Any members besides Pratt and me?

 

ME!

[Balta1701]

One of the first things I thought of after this trade was that hopefully we'll be able to redraft Jordan Danks when he's eligible. I think he'll make a fantastic player someday, and baring injury, though, he'll be drafted too high for us. Although, I guess that means we will be able to draft him in 2 years according to those who think this trade means we're gonna finish 4th in the AL Central and completely suck... whatever...

 

This team is still a 90-win team. I truly believe getting rid of Garcia was addition by subtraction, which sometimes has to be done. Also, while losing McCarthy does hurt us this year, it doesn't make much of a difference if the other 4 don't pitch well. Basically, if Contreras, Garland, Beurhle, and Vazquez pitch like they're capable, then whoever our 5th starter is won't matter b/c the other 4 will be so dominant. Though if the other 4 pitch like last year, it won't matter who the 5th starter is b/c we're not gonna be in the playoffs anyway.

But here's the counterpoint...what are the odds that ALL 4 of those pitchers will pitch for the entire 2007 season like they are capable of? Every single one of them has the "stuff" that could win 20 games in a season. Garland has won 18 a couple times, Buehrle we all know can murder anyone, and Contreras and Vazquez both have pure talent. But what exactly are the odds that they will be able to do that?

 

I for one thought that McCarthy could be a 15-20 game winner next year, and if he had as good of a year as he was capable of, could be a 5th 20 game winner type person. His replacement, presumably Haeger, is probably at best a 15 game winner, and that's if he has an incredible rookie campaign.

 

I don't think we can count on every single person in our staff other than our 5th starter to have a great 2007 campaign. They do, we get rings either way. But if 1 of them don't, or one of them gets hurt, or more than that, then we could face some real concerns next year.

[CWSGuy406]

Yes. And I looked at his numbers. He supposedly plays good defense at Shortstop, a position where we need a guy to fill in for Uribe in either 08 or 09 at the latest, and he has the speed that Ozzie wants. His problem as a pure leadoff hitter is his OBP, that I will grant you, he doesn't walk much. But compared to a "nobody" as a throw-in, I would certainly have been more happy with him than with just what we got.

 

No. I wouldn't want Arias one bit. OBP is a problem? So is the fact that he hits for no power. He's slugged above .400 once, and just barely at .423. His OPS has topped .750 once in his minor league career. Why would I want him when we already have him.

 

For what BMac has shown me, I just want more than 1 possible starter and 1 likely bullpen guy. Even if it's a better-than-Owens gamble, I'd take it. But you can't tell me you're excited about the 3rd part of this deal, even if he is just in his first year out of high school. That 6-16 record, 1.42 WHIP, and 5.41 ERA doesn't excite me very much, compared with someone who could fill an actual need for us.

 

No, the third guy doesn't really excite me a whole lot. He is what he is, another young arm to add to the system. Just turned 20 years old a couple of weeks ago.

 

And yes, I'd rather have another live arm in the system than Arias, because Arias isn't good. He'll probably make an okay backup. If he's starting for your team, you have lots of problems, though. And twenty-some-odd stolen bases don't change that.

 

That's not to say that I'm a huge fan of this deal. I'm excited to have two of the best lefty pitching prospects in baseball in our system, but I'm quite pissed that McCarthy is gone. I'm excited at our prospects (no pun intended) for 2008 and beyond, but 2007 is going to be very tough with Flaeger as our current fifth starter.

 

Unless, of course, they ink Clemens, which makes so much sense right now, but probably won't happen.

Edited December 24, 2006 by CWSGuy406

[jphat007]

No. I wouldn't want Arias one bit. OBP is a problem? So is the fact that he hits for no power. He's slugged above .400 once, and just barely at .423. His OPS has topped .750 once in his minor league career. Why would I want him when we already have him.

 

 

 

No, the third guy doesn't really excite me a whole lot. He is what he is, another young arm to add to the system. He is what he is -- a young arm. Just turned 20 years old a couple of weeks ago.

 

And yes, I'd rather have another live arm in the system than Arias, because Arias isn't good. He'll probably make an okay backup. If he's starting for your team, you have lots of problems, though. And twenty-some-odd stolen bases don't change that.

 

That's not to say that I'm a huge fan of this deal. I'm excited to have two of the best lefty pitching prospects in baseball in our system, but I'm quite pissed that McCarthy is gone. I'm excited at our prospects (no pun intended) for 2008 and beyond, but 2007 is going to be very tough with Flaeger as our current fifth starter.

 

Unless, of course, they ink Clemens, which makes so much sense right now, but probably won't happen.

 

I don't think that McCarthy would have been that much better than one of the other options to call 2007 "very tough" without BMAC. But I agree with you on the rest. Of course we're all shooting opinions at this point. Who knows what BMAC does in a full year as a starter. Maybe he gives up tons of HR, which could really hurt him. Maybe he fixes it and becomes dominant. Will be fun to watch and find out.

[soxpride77]

I'm alright with this deal. I would have rather traded one of the other pitchers we have and kept McCarthy, but what can you do. I really think that our bullpen is going to be key to all of this, it looks like we've made some major upgrades. I am also all for having Haeger as the 5th starter, unless Coop can fix Floyd.

[kwolf68]

Well for starters I do hate trading Brandon. He's been a young guy we've all been expectedly waiting in baited anticipation to finally get his turn. To deal him is tough, because I like him a lot. Hell, I liked Rowand and Garcia, but the deal is made and now it’s time to think logically.

 

Here is my general viewpoint

 

-Even WITH McCarthy our rotation is not as good as Detroit or Minnesotas. We don’t have anything near the electricity of Santana, Liriano, Verlander, Bonderman, etc. We had/have quality pitchers who mostly top out in the high 80s with solid, but unspectacular supporting pitches. I think in Gio, Masset, Sisco, and Danks we have “upped the ante’” on the raw talent. True, they are not experienced mostly, but there are some electric arms in this list.

 

-Bullpen. You could see the progression last year. Detroit and Minnehaha are throwing guys at us tossing near 100 mph and the MacDougal deal was the first move to “get nastier” in the pen. “Punch and Judy throwers” like Cotts, Riske, just weren’t going to cut it anymore. Masset is a mid 90s arm who can start or relieve.

 

-While Danks overall AAA numbers won’t blow you away, please note that he starts slowly when making a new jump, but quickly figures it out. Danks was not in the Rangers rotation, because they were very patient with him, making him make the jumps when he met the challenge. This is what the Phillies did NOT do with Floyd and it’s what the Royals did not do with Sisco. Both Floyd and Sisco were rushed.

 

-Our three best pitching prospects are recently acquired. The bottom line is the Sox farm system is bare, is bone dry and these deals replenish…not just pontificate about them, but for leverage…a couple of these guys may become studs or not, but we have talent we can trade from if needed.

 

-My biggest complaint is we did not get Joaquin Arias in this deal. I would have done McCarthy for Danks and Arias alone. I wished we could have gotten that stud SS (Arias is the real deal, especially with the glove) that had some speed, because I don’t think Lopez or Valido will pan out as they have both stagnated.

 

-OK, what did we lose? Garcia and McCarthy are gone, that is a HUGE thing for all of us. And as someone who can’t stand Vazquez I am very sad to see multiple major moves within our rotation not purge us of him, but he is back. Our top 4 are Jose, Buehrle, Garland, and Vazquez. Even WITHOUT the deals we have made, the bottom line is those guys would have HAD TO pitch lights out for us next year. NOTHING CHANGES. We still need Count to be solid and healthy, we still need Mark Buehrle to rebound from his disaster 2006, we still need Garland to keep winning 17, 18 a year, and we still need Javy to figure out baseball games are longer than 5 innings. NONE OF THAT CHANGES. Freddy Garcia NOR Brandon McCarthy … NEITHER ONE of those guys were going to be the major reasons we win next year, but the status of our top-end rotation guys.

 

In the end, I am struggling with it, because I like Brandon, and while I don’t have a lot of faith in White Sox scouting when it comes to the draft, when it comes to trading away or trading for pitchers on the cusp of falling away or blossoming, our people do have amazing track records.

 

This spring training will be one of the most interesting in quite some time. But just chill out and see where things go.

[aboz56]

I'll take the deal.

 

Danks should be a solid pitcher in the near future. More importantly, we've now got Gio and Danks for when MB leaves as lefties to add into the rotation.

 

And it sounds like we got another plus arm for the pen.

 

I liked Mac a lot, but I think his ceiling is a No. 3 and he'll most likely get shelled in Texas throwing in that park, then again, who doesn't?

[kwolf68]

I've done a lot of looking today on this.

 

While it's still a bit of a mystery, Danks looks like a #2 to me and Masset could also be a #2 as he has multiple good pitches and can be overpowering. However, he moved to the pen last year and really seemed to "take off" in a big way.

 

Masset basically takes McCarthys spot in the ben and Sisco will take Cotts place. Everything else remains the same, except we will now have an open competition for the 5th spot between Danks, Gio, Floyd, maybe Masset gets into that, and Haeger. One would think of those 5 young talented arms, ONE will emerge in Spring, the others can be sent down and we can get behind our team in 2007.

 

I'd also like to mention Jacob Rasner. He sucked at A ball and his composite numbers are terrible for that level...a top prospect should not be averaging about 6ks per 9 at that level. However, the guy is fresh out of high school and is considered a prospect, he has a long, lanky frame, and a very live arm. In other words, he could develop into something. I'm not blown away by him, but I don't think his record has been wrtiten either.

Edited December 24, 2006 by kwolf68

[Hanger]

While I am disheartened by the trading of BMac...just because.....I am thrilled with the possibilities of having 2 decent lefties as starters......especially if Danks or Gio live up to the possibilities.

[Balta1701]

-OK, what did we lose? Garcia and McCarthy are gone, that is a HUGE thing for all of us. And as someone who can’t stand Vazquez I am very sad to see multiple major moves within our rotation not purge us of him, but he is back. Our top 4 are Jose, Buehrle, Garland, and Vazquez. Even WITHOUT the deals we have made, the bottom line is those guys would have HAD TO pitch lights out for us next year. NOTHING CHANGES. We still need Count to be solid and healthy, we still need Mark Buehrle to rebound from his disaster 2006, we still need Garland to keep winning 17, 18 a year, and we still need Javy to figure out baseball games are longer than 5 innings. NONE OF THAT CHANGES. Freddy Garcia NOR Brandon McCarthy … NEITHER ONE of those guys were going to be the major reasons we win next year, but the status of our top-end rotation guys.

I think here's one of my biggest problems with this whole concept. We traded away a guy with 5 or so years of MLB eligibility before he hits free agency, but we're holding onto 1 guy who has 1 remaining year on his contract in Buehrle.

 

I've been casually pushing the concept of dealing Buehrle since September or so, because Mark has an incredible record of pitching, only 1 year left on his contract, and a world series ring. I just look at this deal and think that Mark Buehrle should have been able to bring us the exact same deal, and that's with Mark being a Free Agent so soon.

 

I just still hate the idea of losing probably 2 of Mark Buehrle, Jermaine Dye, and Tadahito Iguchi for draft picks at the end of next season. Maybe I'll be surprised and we'll resign a couple of them, and if the deal is decent I will applaud, but I really, really dislike the concept of holding onto Buehrle and losing the guy with 5 years before FA rather than the reverse.

 

I can understand holding onto Javy. If we really believe in those numbers he put up in the last 2 months, and beleive he can do that for a full season, then he can make himself a much more valuable trading chip next offseason. He has an enormous amount of room for improvement, when compared to the rest of our starters.

 

But I still don't like the fundamental principle of going into 2007 with Mark Buehrle, Jermaine Dye, and Tadahito Iguchi hitting Free Agency at the end of the year. I really hate the idea of losing Buehrle and Dye for draft picks, no matter how many first round picks we get. It just doesn't help us in 08 at all.

[shawnhillegas]

I think it is time for somebody to cue the Haeger fan club sig. Any members besides Pratt and me?

 

 

I'm in.

[Balta1701]

I liked Mac a lot, but I think his ceiling is a No. 3 and he'll most likely get shelled in Texas throwing in that park, then again, who doesn't?

I think BMac may actually wind up projecting pretty well to Texas. That changeup buries people down and away, and if he can get the feel of it right, it should be almost impossible to hit into the air. And he developed a very good 2 seamer a year ago, that was very good at barreling inside on people and could turn into a lot of ground balls. His worry is having his change and big 12-6 curve ball hang on him. Both of those can be hit in the air and out of the park, so the thing he needs to focus on is getting those pitches to keep burying themselves low, at the knees and below. He does that and he absolutely dominates, even in Texas, because no one hits him at all

[dasox24]

I think here's one of my biggest problems with this whole concept. We traded away a guy with 5 or so years of MLB eligibility before he hits free agency, but we're holding onto 1 guy who has 1 remaining year on his contract in Buehrle.

 

I've been casually pushing the concept of dealing Buehrle since September or so, because Mark has an incredible record of pitching, only 1 year left on his contract, and a world series ring. I just look at this deal and think that Mark Buehrle should have been able to bring us the exact same deal, and that's with Mark being a Free Agent so soon.

 

I just still hate the idea of losing probably 2 of Mark Buehrle, Jermaine Dye, and Tadahito Iguchi for draft picks at the end of next season. Maybe I'll be surprised and we'll resign a couple of them, and if the deal is decent I will applaud, but I really, really dislike the concept of holding onto Buehrle and losing the guy with 5 years before FA rather than the reverse.

 

I can understand holding onto Javy. If we really believe in those numbers he put up in the last 2 months, and beleive he can do that for a full season, then he can make himself a much more valuable trading chip next offseason. He has an enormous amount of room for improvement, when compared to the rest of our starters.

 

But I still don't like the fundamental principle of going into 2007 with Mark Buehrle, Jermaine Dye, and Tadahito Iguchi hitting Free Agency at the end of the year. I really hate the idea of losing Buehrle and Dye for draft picks, no matter how many first round picks we get. It just doesn't help us in 08 at all.

Yeah, I'll agree with this. I would have much rather traded Buehrle than McCarthy in this deal, but I'm trying to be positive anyway.

[DrunkBomber]

Unless this is a trade to set something else up I really dont like it. We havent done anything to improve our everyday players and traded Garcia for prospects and our biggest prospect who was ready to move into the rotation for more prospects. It seems very Marlinesque to me.

 

What happens when these guys are ready to play, do we trade them for prospects?

[Gregory Pratt]

I think BMac may actually wind up projecting pretty well to Texas. That changeup buries people down and away, and if he can get the feel of it right, it should be almost impossible to hit into the air. And he developed a very good 2 seamer a year ago, that was very good at barreling inside on people and could turn into a lot of ground balls. His worry is having his change and big 12-6 curve ball hang on him. Both of those can be hit in the air and out of the park, so the thing he needs to focus on is getting those pitches to keep burying themselves low, at the knees and below. He does that and he absolutely dominates, even in Texas, because no one hits him at all

 

Oh my. Quite the optimism.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

What kind of players would we be stockpiling players for????

[Harry Chappas]

I think that Buerhle is going to ink a long term deal. If he craps out there are better options for cheaper long-term which could cover a bad contract, make some sense?

 

I also think Haegar is the number 5 and the organization felt this all along and this was the reason for moving McCarthy.

 

If there is a thought that we needed more "stuff" pitchers, the Sox got rid of two guys that were feel pitchers last year. Jose and Vazquez are stuff guys and Garland (and buerhle to an extent) are still growing and have better stuff than McCarthy. If McCullough and the leftie we got in the Cotts trade pan out this offseason can be nothing short of spectacular. It also could suck badly.

 

I think there is a major move coming though for a solid to great number 5.

[soxwon]

I don't know why you're referring to me, I'm probably the least "down" about this deal.

 

 

your one of the few who get it.

sorry about that- i meant the other non believers.

spread the faith

 

I think that Buerhle is going to ink a long term deal. If he craps out there are better options for cheaper long-term which could cover a bad contract, make some sense?

 

I also think Haegar is the number 5 and the organization felt this all along and this was the reason for moving McCarthy.

 

If there is a thought that we needed more "stuff" pitchers, the Sox got rid of two guys that were feel pitchers last year. Jose and Vazquez are stuff guys and Garland (and buerhle to an extent) are still growing and have better stuff than McCarthy. If McCullough and the leftie we got in the Cotts trade pan out this offseason can be nothing short of spectacular. It also could suck badly.

 

I think there is a major move coming though for a solid to great number 5.

 

a friend of mine in arizona golfed with paul konerko after the season was over.

He said tha PK said Jerry Reinsdorf is VERY upset with Buehrle, wearing the Cardinal cap alot.

In other words, Buehrle is a goner, if not before the end of next season, or right afterwards

when he becomes a free agent. Sox WILL not sign buehrle.

[NCsoxfan]

Can anyone post the Baseball America profiles of Danks and Massett?

[kwolf68]

I also think our 5th starter will come from the Jimmy Johnson mentality...remember the Hershal Walker deal? Dallas got all bunches of picks and Johnson just tossed crap on the wall and some of it sticks.

 

This will happen with the sox...going into Spring, these guys will faceoff to take our 5th spot

 

-Danks

-Gio

-Haeger (my sleeper to take it)

-Floyd

-Masset

-Sisco

-Broadway

 

That is 7 pitchers...all with great credentials...I bet one of them will stick and do quite well. And if the guy flames, then we just make a callup.

 

In the end, our fortunes rest with the 4 pitchers above the #5. If our 1-4 do well, we'll be fine.

[Balta1701]

your one of the few who get it.

sorry about that- i meant the other non believers.

spread the faith

a friend of mine in arizona golfed with paul konerko after the season was over.

He said tha PK said Jerry Reinsdorf is VERY upset with Buehrle, wearing the Cardinal cap alot.

In other words, Buehrle is a goner, if not before the end of next season, or right afterwards

when he becomes a free agent. Sox WILL not sign buehrle.

If the White Sox will not resign Buehrle, I would vastly have preferred Buehrle be traded and BMac be kept, or given the circumstances, both be traded. I would rather the White Sox wind up with what Buehrle would get during a trade and save the $10 mil this season, than lose Buehrle for draft picks and spend the money this season. As long as we get something reasonable in return.