McCarthy Traded to Texas

[Jordan4life_2007]

Well, I just read through the entire 40 pages of this thread. I will say I was absolutely shocked when I first heard of this deal on the radio. I was very pissed and dissapointed. However, now that I've had a chance to really break the deal down, I feel we come out winners. Look, I like Brandon a lot, but other than a 4 or 5 start stretch late in the 2005 season, what has he really done? Will Brandon be good? I think so. But I don't understand why many are acting like we gave up a sure-fire 15-18 game winner for a couple of bums. Danks has better stuff than McCarthy has or ever will have. Add in Bassett, and there's no way we don't win this deal. I don't even care about the other guy. I fully expect him to suck. If not, all the better. As far as 2007 goes? Will see. As many have pointed out, Kenny is more than likely not done dealing. And, I like Haeger a lot. I think he can give us pretty solid production out of the 5th spot. The bottomline: If our playoffs hopes for '07 rested on McCarthy, we weren't s*** to begin with. If Buehrle, Garland and Contreras all pitch like they're capable, combined with Javy solving his 5th-6th inning debacles, will be in damn good position to make the playoffs. Even without great numbers from our #5 starter. I absolutely love how Kenny has loaded up on these young arms for the future. In this market, that's crucial, IMO. Let's atleast wait until spring training to truly judge what Kenny has done.

Edited December 24, 2006 by Jordan4life_2006

[shipps]

Man!What ever happened to KW saying there wouldnt be any major changes in the off season?This has been one of the most surprising offseasons i could remember.I dont think i can emotionally handle any more of KW moves.

Edited December 24, 2006 by shipps

[Jordan4life_2007]

Man!What ever happened to KW saying there wouldnt be any major changes in the off season?This has been one of the most surprising offseasons i could remember.I dont think i can emotionally handle any more of KW moves.

 

Haven't we learned over time not to put any real stock in what KW says in regards to potential trades? I'm not surprised at all another starter was moved. I'm surprised it was B-Mac. But I love what we got back in return.

Edited December 24, 2006 by Jordan4life_2006

[shipps]

Whether the trade works out good for us or not,who knows.But it sure is exciting stuff to see our GM makes things happen and is willing to put his ass on the line.But i do think KW has gotten a little too cocky.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Whether the trade works out good for us or not,who knows.But it sure is exciting stuff to see our GM makes things happen and is willing to put his ass on the line.But i do think KW has gotten a little too cocky.

 

Let's see:

 

Juan Uribe for Aaron Miles. We won that trade.

 

Freddy Garcia for Jeremy Reed, Miguel Olivo and Michael Morse. We won that trade.

 

Jose Contreras for Estaban Loazia. Good god did we win this trade.

 

Scott Podsednik for Carlos lee. We won this trade for atleast one year. Happens to be the year that we won our first title in like 200 years.

 

Matt Thornton for Joe Borchard. LMAO! I think we won this trade.

 

So as you can see, Kenny has more than a proven history of coming through on trades the last few years. For now, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

[shipps]

Let's see:

 

Juan Uribe for Aaron Miles. We won that trade.

 

Freddy Garcia for Jeremy Reed, Miguel Olivo and Michael Morse. We won that trade.

 

Jose Contreras for Estaban Loazia. Good god did we win this trade.

 

Scott Podsednik for Carlos lee. We won this trade for atleast one year. Happens to be the year that we won our first title in like 200 years.

 

Matt Thornton for Joe Borchard. LMAO! I think we won this trade.

 

So as you can see, Kenny has more than a proven history of coming through on trades the last few years. For now, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

Yes KW history is good.But Texas history of finding pitching talent has been pretty bad also.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Yes KW history is good.But Texas history of finding pitching talent has been pretty bad also.

 

I respect your opinion, shipps, but I'm not gonna hold the fact that the Rangers haven't been able to develop pitching against Danks and Massett. I think both guy have a chance to be REAL good. s***, what pitching have we truly 'developed' over the last 4-5 years?

Edited December 24, 2006 by Jordan4life_2006

[rcpweiner]

Wow. There's a lot of you ready to jump ship, it seems. This from Baseball Prospectus might bring you off the ledge momentarily:

 

Bye-Bye, Brandon

by Nate Silver

 

Leave it to Kenny Williams to break the monotony of one of the slowest weeks in the baseball news cycle: the Brandon McCarthy era has come to an end in Chicago before it ever really began.

 

McCarthy’s name carries a lot of weight in sabermetric circles, and Williams had declared him all but untradable as recently as this summer, when he’d been bandied about as part of the potential booty for Alfonso Soriano. Publicly and privately, the desire to ensure that McCarthy had a job in the starting rotation was a big part of the White Sox‘ justification for moving Freddy Garcia earlier this month.

 

So why the sudden about-face? The answer is likely the same as it usually is with Williams: he saw an opportunity to add value and he took it. And on that score, he’ll probably wind up on the winning side of this deal.

 

McCarthy has just one major flaw as a pitcher, but it’s potentially a fatal one: his Eric Milton-esque tendency to give up home runs. McCarthy yielded home runs at a rate faster than all but a handful of pitchers in the big leagues last season. He’s a flyball pitcher, and his home run rates have been high throughout his professional career, both in the majors and the minors. I watched video of a fair number of McCarthy’s home runs on MLB.com, and it was clear that they were coming on bad pitches, fastballs left up in the hitting zone or hanging curveballs thrown on bad counts. While there’s certainly an element of luck involved in giving up home runs, in McCarthy’s case there’s every reason to think that this is a real and persistant problem.

 

Add it all up, and McCarthy’s PECOTA projected EqERA as a starting pitcher next year is an uninspiring 4.97. The raw ERA projection is higher than that, of course, since Texas is a bad environment for a pitcher with gopher ball issues, just as Chicago was.

 

John Danks has had his own problems with home runs, and his EqERA projection is 5.07, which isn’t any better. Still, the White Sox win this trade on tiebreakers. Danks is nearly two years younger than McCarthy, which isn’t as important for pitching prospects as it is for hitting prospects, but still counts for something. He’s a year and a half behind McCarthy in service time. And he wasn’t the only arm the White Sox picked up in this deal.

 

Danks might also be a better fit for pitching coach Don Cooper. It is Cooper who would have been the key to McCarthy’s development, who could have gotten him away from the bad habits that led to all those longballs, but one senses that the White Sox viewed McCarthy as stubborn, perhaps to the point of being uncoachable. They also don’t run the risk of upsetting Danks if he starts the year in Triple-A, which should produce a genuine competition in spring training between Danks, Gavin Floyd, Charlie Haeger, and perhaps even Lance Broadway.

 

That is, if Williams doesn’t have another surprise up his sleeve first.

 

Me personally? I like it. I don't know much about Danks & Company, but I never understood the McCarthy fanboys. He was good in 2005, decent in 2006, but he wasn't the Almighty White Sox Savior or anything. Maybe it was just because he was the first decent homegrown pitching prospect since Buerhle/Garland that has all of your panties in multiple knots.

 

7 stud prospects for one pitching spot? I kind of like that.

 

Let's see:

So as you can see, Kenny has more than a proven history of coming through on trades the last few years. For now, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

And don't forget David Wells for Mike Sirotka, which we technically won. See? Even his bad moves are good moves!

[beck72]

I'm excited about Danks future. I'm much less happy about the White Sox present. The White Sox present is more important than Danks future. I think that is the nature of the unhappiness around here. We have (had) a good shot at the WS in 2007. Now those chances aren't so good.

Kw had said that he wouldn't trade a starter if it didn't help the sox in 2007 AND in the future. The 5th starter [Haeger/ Floyd/ Gio/ Broadway] + Masset+ Danks collectively will probably help the sox more than what BMac would have given the sox next yr. Plus, the sox chances on winning the 2007 world series wasn't going to rest on his shoulders.

 

BMac was all about the sox having a younger, cheaper, talented rotation for yrs into the future, more than expecting him to be a #1 , #2 type SP in 2007. This trade hasn't changed that thinking

[Al Lopez's Ghost]

I'd just like to add this for everyone who has said that we should have traded Vazquez to Texas instead of BMac. The reason the trade happened, it seems to me, is that Texas liked BMac for the same reason we all liked him - he is a combination of major league talent (middle of the rotation) for relatively cheap money. No way Texas takes on a big contract and trades us 3 kids, two of whom seem destined for the majors.

 

I liked BMac, looked forward to seeing him in the rotation every 5th day, but I'm ok with the trade, even excited to see Danks and Masset. But Buerhle's future with the Sox? I say two things about that: he'll be traded by July 31st, and just about everyone here will say we didn't get enough.

[RME JICO]

Danks and B-Mac might end up as a complete wash, but the real steal could be with Masset:

 

Before coming home from Mexico, he had 15 saves and a 22/2 K/BB ratio in 20 2/3 innings this winter.

 

Even in Mexico, a 22/2 K/BB ratio in 20 2/3 innings is solid.

[DBAHO]

Not a lot been said about Rasner, found this info on him;

 

7. Jacob Rasner, RHP, Wooster HS: Recorded 61 strikeouts in 57 innings and received All-Sierra League honors in 2004.

 

"He's another big pitcher with a good arm. He is up to 92 mph."

 

And even 20-year-old right-hander Jacob Rasner, seemingly just a body in the McCarthy trade, is a project with a high ceiling.

 

 

 

Danks and B-Mac might end up as a complete wash, but the real steal could be with Masset:

Even in Mexico, a 22/2 K/BB ratio in 20 2/3 innings is solid.

Kenny thinks he could be another Bobby Jenks.

 

Hard thrower, reached 96-98 on the gun in Mexico, and has a power arsenal including a real good sinker apparently.

[EvilJester99]

Not sure if I would be a huge fan of this but could this be a possiblity to fill the 5th starter spot and let some of these young arms get more work in AAA?

 

Joel Pineiro, RHSP--Seattle Mariners: Rays have expressed interest in him, Scott Dohmann and Jason Bulger. Red Sox, Royals, Twins, Yankees, Pirates and Cardinals interested. Buster Olney speculates that the White Sox may be the frontrunners to land him. The Pirates are unwilling to meet his asking price.

[beck72]

I'd just like to add this for everyone who has said that we should have traded Vazquez to Texas instead of BMac. The reason the trade happened, it seems to me, is that Texas liked BMac for the same reason we all liked him - he is a combination of major league talent (middle of the rotation) for relatively cheap money. No way Texas takes on a big contract and trades us 3 kids, two of whom seem destined for the majors.

 

I liked BMac, looked forward to seeing him in the rotation every 5th day, but I'm ok with the trade, even excited to see Danks and Masset. But Buerhle's future with the Sox? I say two things about that: he'll be traded by July 31st, and just about everyone here will say we didn't get enough.

I agree with just about everything you said. Except the part about trading Mark. The sox will likely be in the playoff hunt. Trading away Mark would hurt the sox chances of getting to the playoffs and winning it all once there. With the additions of AA and AAA pitchers almost ready for the bigs, the sox can afford to take draft pick as compensation for Mark.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the sox did re-sign Mark--depending on if he wants to re-sign here or not for a 3, 4 yr deal under $15 mill per.

 

Kenny thinks he could be another Bobby Jenks.

 

Hard thrower, reached 96-98 on the gun in Mexico, and has a power arsenal including a real good sinker apparently.

Danks himself said Masset had the best arm in the Rangers organization

[DBAHO]

Not sure if I would be a huge fan of this but could this be a possiblity to fill the 5th starter spot and let some of these young arms get more work in AAA?

 

Joel Pineiro, RHSP--Seattle Mariners: Rays have expressed interest in him, Scott Dohmann and Jason Bulger. Red Sox, Royals, Twins, Yankees, Pirates and Cardinals interested. Buster Olney speculates that the White Sox may be the frontrunners to land him. The Pirates are unwilling to meet his asking price.

Now that's interesting.

 

Piniero was certainly a very good starter a couple of seasons ago. I think he's lost some velocity or something since then though.

 

But I wouldn't mind signing him and see if the Sox could get him back to where he was before.

[Dick Allen]

Can't wait for the deadline to roll around when we're 8 games back...Let the minor leaguers start rolling in then.

If that were to occur, I think you would see Buerhle gone to the highest bidder, along with Vazquez and possibly Contreras. I think KW was pretty set on trading another starter, which to me wasn't a bad thought. I'm just shocked it was McCarthy. I do think Buerhle was the odd man out, but evidently they couldn't get back fair market value for him. The Yankees wouldn't trade Humberto Sanchez straight up reportedly. People may believe Buerhle when he says he really doesn't want to pitch for the Cardinals until maybe late in his career (after the second half of last season, if that continues, it probably is late in his career) but I don't think many in baseball are buying it. I think his trade value is hurt by his love of the Cardinals and any team thinking of acquiring him probably assumes he is a longshot at signing an extension. If I were a GM, I would be very reluctant to give up a huge package for a guy who wasn't any better than a minor leaguer the second half of 2006, who is signed only for one season, who I have to pay pretty good money to for the one season, who I have basically no chance re-signing.

 

Can some explain to me how playing into the WS allegedly tires a pitching staff out, but this guy Masset is pitching in Mexico during his "off season" and he could be a guy in the bullpen in 2007? Isn't he going to be totally gassed for next season?

[beck72]

Can some explain to me how playing into the WS allegedly tires a pitching staff out, but this guy Masset is pitching in Mexico during his "off season" and he could be a guy in the bullpen in 2007? Isn't he going to be totally gassed for next season?

Masset had been a starter for most of his career. He's thrown over 100 innings a yr almost every yr since signing. The extra 20 innings of work shouldn't be a big deal

[DBAHO]

Can some explain to me how playing into the WS allegedly tires a pitching staff out, but this guy Masset is pitching in Mexico during his "off season" and he could be a guy in the bullpen in 2007? Isn't he going to be totally gassed for next season?

Well you have to consider Masset won't have thrown as many innings as the Sox's starters would have in a season, plus he's younger so his arm shouldn't be too worn out, and he's only thrown something like 20 innings as a closer down in Mexico.

[Texsox]

I finally got over here and I am LMAO. Fans of both teams hate this trade. All of my Ranger fans think the Rangers got majorly hosed on this deal. They want the GM strung up like Christmas lights.

 

Prospects are prospects in my book. I've watched waaaay to many not pan out. (where is big Jon Rauch?) I like B-Mac more because he posted here, but as a pitcher, I'll take a couple extra top to near top prospects for one top prospect.

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

I respect your opinion, shipps, but I'm not gonna hold the fact that the Rangers haven't been able to develop pitching against Danks and Massett.

 

I was thinking about this today. Having the Rangers developed a good pitcher since Bobby Witt?

[beck72]

I was thinking about this today. Having the Rangers developed a good pitcher since Bobby Witt?

There are new guys in charge of the Rangers now. To say the new people in the Rangers can't develop pitchers because of mistakes made by others is comparing apples to oranges. IIRC, Bob Melvin was in charge of the talent. Few of his pitchers turned out.

 

The pitching prospects in the Rangers system [not just the ones the sox got] are far more highly regarded than the arms of the past.

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

Keep in mind, everyone in the majors knows Mark Buehrle is destined for St.Louis, thus he has no value. And St.Louis would be silly to trade for him, because they figure he'll be available for them next year anyway.

 

The Cards are not exactly big spenders on the free agent market. They are curently getting outbid by the Brewers for their NLCS MVP. The Cards seem to be crying poor in recent off seasons to make me think Buehrle to the Cards is not as likely as some would believe.

 

There are new guys in charge of the Rangers now. To say the new people in the Rangers can't develop pitchers because of mistakes made by others is comparing apples to oranges. IIRC, Bob Melvin was in charge of the talent. Few of his pitchers turned out.

 

The pitching prospects in the Rangers system [not just the ones the sox got] are far more highly regarded than the arms of the past.

 

 

Point taken, though Melvin is responsible for at least a very small fraction of that pitching development since the Bobby Witt era.

[beck72]

Point taken, though Melvin is responsible for at least a very small fraction of that pitching development since the Bobby Witt era.

My bad, it was Doug Melvin in charge of the Rangers from 1994-2001. Few of his pitchers turned out. But Hart was the one who drafted and developed these guys. And he drafted Hurley and Diamond as well.

 

Doug Melvin 1994-2001

John Hart 2001-2005

Jon Daniels 2006-

Edited December 24, 2006 by beck72

[wallyburger]

Keny trades away Ozzie's nephew. Ozzie is pissed off. Kenny trades away the pitcher Ozzie hates. Ozzie feels better now.

[NorthSideSox72]

Just saw this when I picked up the Trib this morning.

 

Shocked. Weird.

 

But I like it. I think we got the better end of the deal - 2 high prospects and a maybe, for 1 and a never gonna be. I can see why KW decided he had to take it, even though its a huge chance to take.

 

And let's remember - in 2005, our 5th starter slot was a near-6 ERA hole most of the year with El Duque. So the fears expressed about white flagging it are pretty ridiculous. This organization has gotten a lot stronger in the young pitching department in the last month, and we still look good for 2007.

 

Although, I am now hoping that one of these prospects (of the Floyd/Danks/Haeger/Broadway/Phillips/Gio starter group) and Pods get traded for a better LF option. That would make the offseason complete, in my eyes.

 

 

BTW, I'm now even more to get to Tucson and see guys like Floyd-Gio-Sisco-Danks-Masset go at it. It will be fun to go out to the back fields and watch some of these guys.

Totally. I was planning on it anyway, maybe now I'll spend a little more time there than planned.

Edited December 24, 2006 by NorthSideSox72