A thread you HAVE to see.....(McCarthy)

[kwolf68]

That could be. The natural spot for him would be the pen, but we've been surprised lately, so who knows.

 

 

Masset has multiple pitches (4) that he just hasn't developed complete control over them all on a consistent level yet. Switching to the pen meant he could ease off on a couple pitches and wratchet up his fastball (high 90s), which is good enough to do BP work.

 

However, with 4 quality pitches he is a great rotation candidate once he matures and learns to command them all. Thus, he moves to the rotation once he fills them out. If he never gets the command down, he is still going to be a outstanding relief pitcher in my view.

[Baines3]

I think anybody with a brain thinks we coulda got more for BMac.

I appreciate the logic but wouldn't yu all agree with me on that?

That makes this a bad trade.

 

I agree with you 100%. This trade was terrible, too early to tell if it is among the dumbest trades. It is a bad one though. We should have gotten more than what we did. I am starting to think that Ozzie may have wanted rid of him, IMO.

[SoxFan1]

I agree with you 100%. This trade was terrible, too early to tell if it is among the dumbest trades. It is a bad one though. We should have gotten more than what we did. I am starting to think that Ozzie may have wanted rid of him, IMO.

What exactly would you expect the Sox to get back for McCarthy?

Edited December 24, 2006 by SoxFan1

[TLAK]

I think anybody with a brain thinks we coulda got more for BMac.

I appreciate the logic but wouldn't yu all agree with me on that?

That makes this a bad trade.

KW on the topic, this is about as revealing a quote I've ever seen a baseball man make:

"I can't put together a plan that sustains success while trying to please the masses," added Williams, regarding public concern over the McCarthy trade. "We'll never conduct business that way, and if we had, I don't know if we would have been as successful the last couple of years. We'll keep doing business the way we have -- scouting players and not players' numbers."

[jasonxctf]

Good lord is Brandon McCarthy overrated on this site. And I was a big fan of the guy.

 

 

here's the follow up question. Ted Lilly was worth 4 years and $40 million in the open market. Assuming that McCarthy is a step below Lilly, did we just get $25-30 million worth of talent? That is what we just gave up.

 

McCarthy could have easily performed as a #5 starter. Right now, we don't have anyone who has proven that they can do that. So we are either (a) going to overpay for a 5th starter if we are in any type of contension at the break or (B) struggle with an automatic loss every 5th day as we rotate through Haeger, Floyd, etc as we did in 2002-2004 or © hit lightening in a bottle like we did with Loaiza a few years ago.

 

In addition, we are now assuming that Vazquez is a legitimate #4 starter... which last year he wasn't.

[greg775]

What exactly would you expect the Sox to get back for McCarthy?

 

Maybe an proven big league outfielder plus a middle reliever.

Just some proven major leaguers.

Maybe package Brandon and another guy or 2 for the Rangers' ss Ozzie likes so much.

I know, he's untouchable, but maybe not. Maybe we could have had a blockbuster

to get Young.

Or a blockbuster to get the A-Rod everybody seems to want so much.

 

Hopefully those prospects we got will do well, and maybe Brandon is overrated, but couldn't we have

gotten Young from Texas with Brandon and maybe one or two of our top prospects as well as Cintron?

 

This new change in philosophy might work. Keep a high priced everyday lineup and talented

lineup, let our expensive pitchers walk, and hopefully these young guys we're acquiring

will be the next Buehrle's, etc.

If they flop, however, we will suck because pitching is the name of the game.

Edited December 24, 2006 by greg775

[Heads22]

BMac isn't a proven ML starter.

[Balta1701]

Maybe an proven big league outfielder plus a middle reliever.

Just some proven major leaguers.

Maybe package Brandon and another guy or 2 for the Rangers' ss Ozzie likes so much.

I know, he's untouchable, but maybe not. Maybe we could have had a blockbuster

to get Young.

Or a blockbuster to get the A-Rod everybody seems to want so much.

 

Hopefully those prospects we got will do well, and maybe Brandon is overrated, but couldn't we have

gotten Young from Texas with Brandon and maybe one or two of our top prospects as well as Cintron?

I'm clearly not a fan of this deal as it is, but I will say this, I like the deal as it was done quite a bit more than sending multiple people including BMac to Texas and only getting back Young. And I still think an ARod deal would be a bad idea for this team.

[knightni]

3. Some of these stockpiled prospects are going to be used to make a significant trade. We have so many, in fact, that we could use some to get a really good player, and still keep a good one or two (which is amazing since as of a month ago, we had the worst system I can remember us having). This s©enario is also likely I would assume, but not as much as #1.

 

 

I've got my money on this scenario.

[AWhiteSoxinNJ]

Look I have nothing against Gavin Floyd, I've never met him nor do I really care to. I am just trying to warn everyone that he isn't a good pitcher. Most people here have him pinned as our future number 2 starter. There is a reason the Phillies gave him up. He was a thrown-in player in the Garcia trade. Check the numbers, he is all hype and has not, as of right now, shown that he is even an option for the pen. All I am saying is don't get your hopes up on this guy because he has been a major bust so far. He is not even in McCarthy league as a pitch, talk about giving up the long ball, I think he's worse at it the BMac.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Look I have nothing against Gavin Floyd, I've never met him nor do I really care to. I am just trying to warn everyone that he isn't a good pitcher. Most people here have him pinned as our future number 2 starter. There is a reason the Phillies gave him up. He was a thrown-in player in the Garcia trade. Check the numbers, he is all hype and has not, as of right now, shown that he is even an option for the pen. All I am saying is don't get your hopes up on this guy because he has been a major bust so far. He is not even in McCarthy league as a pitch, talk about giving up the long ball, I think he's worse at it the BMac.

 

He's like 23, right? Hard to deem somebody a bust at that age. Not everybody comes up right away and flourishes.

[witesoxfan]

1. You can have the best stuff in the world, and dominate in the minors and still be crap in the majors (Rauch.)

 

I don't know what your definition of crap is, but Jon Rauch is far from crap.

 

He's not the #1-2 starter he was projected to be coming out of the minors, but he's a fine reliever for the Nationals, and I think I've even read he could have a chance to close if Cordero is traded (which seems much more unlikely at this point in time).

[zenryan]

all these prospects might come in handy come the end of August

[hitlesswonder]

He's like 23, right? Hard to deem somebody a bust at that age. Not everybody comes up right away and flourishes.

 

Floyd didn't flourish in the minors either. His AAA ERA is over 5. Over his minor league career his K/9 is around 7. That's nowhere close to how well McCarthy performed. Floyd's status as a prospect is mostly due to being a high draft pick, having a nice curve and being big guy. He supposedly doesn't have the 93-94 MPH fastball he had when drafted; the PHI papers say it's down to 90. I'd rather see Haegar start than Floyd, Haeger at least showed some ability to pitch in the big leagues last season and did well at AAA.

 

It may be harsh, but looking at what Floyd has done in the majors and minors, calling him a bust isn't over the top IMO.

[Flash Tizzle]

Floyd didn't flourish in the minors either. His AAA ERA is over 5. Over his minor league career his K/9 is around 7. That's nowhere close to how well McCarthy performed. Floyd's status as a prospect is mostly due to being a high draft pick, having a nice curve and being big guy. He supposedly doesn't have the 93-94 MPH fastball he had when drafted; the PHI papers say it's down to 90. I'd rather see Haegar start than Floyd, Haeger at least showed some ability to pitch in the big leagues last season and did well at AAA.

 

It may be harsh, but looking at what Floyd has done in the majors and minors, calling him a bust isn't over the top IMO.

I don't expect anything out of Floyd for these exact reasons. I suppose it's easier for people to suggest "Cooper will fix him" rather than assessing his body of work; minor and major league statistics.

 

What will it say for Williams and his scouting crew to spend a tremendous amount of time identifying Floyd as a target, only to have him fail? People haven't addressed this possibility yet. I've noticed members claim he'll be a surprise next season without nothing more than a "hunch," so it's only fair to express my 'hunch.'

 

I'm sure if Floyd fails we'll see the following repeated -- "Garcia was in his walk year anyways, so it doesn't hurt so much watching Floyd fail. He didn't pan out, but altleast there's Gonzalez!" Ultimately, I believe Giovanni will be the key component of this deal. Never really considered Floyd anything other than an additional body.

[elrockinMT]

I liked Brqndon McCarthy also, but the guy gives up a ton of homers and has only one full season in the majors, which was in the bullpen. He didn't exactly shine there mind you, but had a lot of upside. Now we are comparing him to pitchers that have been around the league for

awhile and saying we could have gotten more. I don't think we could have without giving up more ourselves. The guy isn't "Cy F***ing Young," no matter how you slice it. He has a real good future, but with us it was as the #5 starter.

Edited December 25, 2006 by elrockinMT

[Chisoxfn]

I think anybody with a brain thinks we coulda got more for BMac.

I appreciate the logic but wouldn't yu all agree with me on that?

That makes this a bad trade.

No, I wouldn't. I don't think people realize the type of upper echelon prospects we got (Danks), the type of arm we got (Massett), and the type of high ceiling 3rd prospect we got (yes that 3rd guy is raw, but he's very projectable).

 

Plus I'd like to think our GM has a brain, afterall he did find a way to build a world series championship club at one point in time.

 

Also, just to point another thing out as people seem to continuously start comparing us to teams that throw out a bunch of young pitchers, I should add we still have 4 starters who are pretty good bets to log around 200 innings (the only real questionmark for me would be Contreras and his back woes).

[RME JICO]

No, I wouldn't. I don't think people realize the type of upper echelon prospects we got (Danks), the type of arm we got (Massett), and the type of high ceiling 3rd prospect we got (yes that 3rd guy is raw, but he's very projectable).

 

I agree. Another thing is to look at this from the Ranger's perspective. They gave up a pitcher in Danks that was fairly highly valued in their system for a pitcher that is ready to pitch in 2007 in McCarthy. That deal straight up is pretty close, with an advantage to Texas. When you throw in Massett who is looking very solid in Mexico and Rasner who is young and raw with a lot of upside, this deals turns in favor of the Sox considerably. Now there is a level of risk involved because McCarthy is more proven, but it seems like KW feels the reward is far greater than the risk.

[Whitewashed in '05]

I don't know what your definition of crap is, but Jon Rauch is far from crap.

 

He's not the #1-2 starter he was projected to be coming out of the minors, but he's a fine reliever for the Nationals, and I think I've even read he could have a chance to close if Cordero is traded (which seems much more unlikely at this point in time).

Exactly. He was doing so good with us here that's why we traded him.

[Steve9347]

1. You can have the best stuff in the world, and dominate in the minors (which Danks hasn't exactly done) and still be crap in the majors (Rauch.) Bmac has already transitioned at least decently. There are no guarantees with Danks.

 

Jon Rauch never really had dominant stuff... a high 80's fastball and dogs*** for offspeed stuff doesn't really mean anything, he was tall, so people said "Randy Johnson."

 

Most overrated spect in history.

[RockRaines]

I think anybody with a brain thinks we coulda got more for BMac.

I appreciate the logic but wouldn't yu all agree with me on that?

That makes this a bad trade.

Actually alot of people, especially experts have thought that BMAC wasnt worth Danks and Masset, so im not sure who doesnt have a brain in your scenario.

[hitlesswonder]

Jon Rauch never really had dominant stuff... a high 80's fastball and dogs*** for offspeed stuff doesn't really mean anything, he was tall, so people said "Randy Johnson."

 

Most overrated spect in history.

 

Please. There's no way Rauch was the most overrated prospect in history. He's not even the most overrated prospect in White Sox history. He had a betterl fastball before he shredded his labrum. He's one of the few pitchers to come back from labrum surgery and have some success in the majors. So he obviously has some talent.

 

No, even if he hadn't gotten injured he wouldn't have been like Verlander or something, but he had better minor league numbers than a lot pitchers that people posting here are expecting to do great thinngs. For example, Gavin Floyd has performed light-years worse than Rauch did in the minors. Actually, Floyd might be a good candidate for a list of most overrated prospects...

[sox-r-us]

Exactly, it's not that I'm not happy with Danks and Masset because I have wanted Danks all long. It's that I feel like we should have gotten at least a proven player for a guy like BMac. There was so much hype for him the last two years about getting him into the rotation and then we make a trade to put him in there and we trade him and now have a hole at the #5 spot. I realize it's not opening day yet and KW could still make another move to fill the spot in the roatation or another hole in the line-up but moving McCarthey is the one thing I wouldn't of done this offseason.

 

That is the real problem. If only people would stop hyping things so much, they would be able to see the big picture. This was the same problem with Jon Garland and this board (and everywhere else). Everyone wanted to cut/trade Garland when he was going through his growing pains because he was not the next Cy Young they all had built him to be. Not one understood how young he was and how, given his salary, he was providing us great value as our 3rd or 4th or 5th starter in most of those years.

[Harry Chappas]

That is the real problem. If only people would stop hyping things so much, they would be able to see the big picture. This was the same problem with Jon Garland and this board (and everywhere else). Everyone wanted to cut/trade Garland when he was going through his growing pains because he was not the next Cy Young they all had built him to be. Not one understood how young he was and how, given his salary, he was providing us great value as our 3rd or 4th or 5th starter in most of those years.

 

Gavin Floyd is a young Jon Garland.

[hitlesswonder]

Gavin Floyd is a young Jon Garland.

 

Garland's ERA in AAA was around 2.60. Floyd's is around 5.00. Floyd is 24 and Garland is 26. When Garland was 24, he had over 500 innings in the bigs and a major league ERA of around 4.7. Floyd's major league ERA is 6.96.