Would you trade MacDougal to upgrade the offense?

[beck72]

With the bullpen additions of Masset, Aardsma, and probably Floyd for 2007, would you use MacDougal as a trading chip to upgrade the offense?

 

With his health concerns, I'm not completely sold on him. I love his stuff. But I'm not sure if the sox can count on him being healthy for 3 seasons. Also, IIRC, he'll turn 30 this year.

 

Yet he would have to look good for a lot of teams looking for bullpen help, esp as a closer. And he has a reasonable contract, with an option for a 4th yr as well.

 

Could the sox parlay MacDougal and peices [via a three team deal, such as Anderson, Mac, and another player for Scott Olsen who is then shipped to the DRays] into a guy like Rocco Baldelli? I would think so. SP and bullpen help are very hot commodities that most teams are looking to upgrade.

 

It depends on how highly the sox think of Aardsma and Masset. And if they think either Haeger or Floyd could work from the bullpen. From the face of it, the sox seem very high on these new guys.

 

Thoughts?

[RME JICO]

I really like the state of the Sox bullpen, but I would not have a problem moving MacDougal as long the Sox got back some value. Since he is a RHP, he is easier replaced compared to someone like Thornton.

 

The double-headed monster of Thornton/MacDougal followed by Jenks is an awesome combination though. I would really like to have a full season of those guys in the bullpen together.

[beck72]

Not that bad of a thought, because there are obviously still holes to fill, but I really, really like the way the bullpen is shaping up.

 

Mac has some serious injury concerns, but when he is on, like you said, that trio at the back end is nasty. It's going to be nice to have that in the 7th inning of games.

 

I guess if the right deal came along you make it, but I like Mac on the team right now.

 

The key is the durability factor. Mac's stuff is very good. But if Ozzie has to handle Mac with kid gloves to keep him healthy, his value is far less than that of Aardsma, Masset and Floyd if they can be used at will. The sox should see what offers come their way.

 

I'd certainly want the sox to trade a guy like MacDougal than Crede to fill the remaining holes. Teams will only trade quality major league players if they receive similar type players in return. Prospects aren't going to get deals done at this point.

 

The double-headed monster of Thornton/MacDougal followed by Jenks is an awesome combination though. I would really like to have a full season of those guys in the bullpen together.

I think that's the key. Will Mac stay healthy for an entire season, let alone the 3 he's signed for or the 4th option yr? The sox need reliability [esp. in terms of health] as well as electric/ nasty stuff from their bullpen guys.

 

Esp. if the sox think Danks can win the 5th spot in the rotation, the sox would have Floyd in the 'pen as well. One of Aardsma/ Masset/ Floyd/ or even Charlie Haeger should be able to handle Mac's spot.

Edited December 26, 2006 by beck72

[Steve9347]

to answer your question... of course I would trade Mike f***ing MacDougal.

[RME JICO]

The key is the durability factor. Mac's stuff is very good. But if Ozzie has to handle Mac with kid gloves to keep him healthy, his value is far less than that of Aardsma, Masset and Floyd if they can be used at will. The sox should see what offers come their way.

 

I think that's the key. Will Mac stay healthy for an entire season, let alone the 3 he's signed for or the 4th option yr? The sox need reliability [esp. in terms of health] as well as electric/ nasty stuff from their bullpen guys.

 

I agree that Mac's health is a concern, but I don't know how much more of a concern it would be than Crede's back, or Thome's elbow/back. It is just something that the coaches and staff will need to monitor.

 

However, I still believe he has significant value with his closer experience. It could be something to watch during ST or near the trading deadline, especially if some of the other guys are ready to step in.

[soxwon]

We dont need to upgrade the offense- we have the best hitting team in baseball.

The sox are PERFECT- thanks to KW.

[klaus kinski]

The bullpen could weather a trade more than any other position right now, as things are right now

[knightni]

Is MacDougal worth a hitter?

[beck72]

We dont need to upgrade the offense- we have the best hitting team in baseball.

The sox are PERFECT- thanks to KW.

I'm pretty sure you forgot to put that in green

 

Is MacDougal worth a hitter?

Probably not by himself alone. But coupled with a bat like Anderson, and the makings of a nice addition would probably be there

 

I think the Sox are higher Sweeney and Fields than Anderson. But getting all 3 bats into the lineup at the same time will be a problem.

[Buehrle>Wood]

No, No, No, No, No, No.

[Chisoxfn]

Absolutely not. You can talk all you want about our bullpen being upgraded and yes the talent in the pen has been upgraded but we are also relying on numerous question-marks.

 

MacDougall while dominant when healthy has never proven he can stay healthy. Sisco, Aardsma, Massett are very unproven commodities with only one putting up good major league numbers over the past year (and that was Aardsma).

 

So no, I'm not about to trade anyone from the pen. I'm just hoping a good chunk of these guys pitch up to there capabilities (if they do we have a sick pen) and that Jenksy stays healthy. However, if they don't we could have a disaster of a pen. That said I don't think any team has a better pen (stuff wise) than ours.

[Rowand44]

No.

[Balta1701]

It depends on the hitter. I mean, if the offer was MMac for Carl Crawford, can anyone here honestly say they wouldn't JUMP at that in a second? You'd be crazy not to.

 

But, in a deal that would strike most outside observers as a "Fair" deal, MMac for a medium-quality, probably not an all-star type bat, then it wouldn't be a smart move.

 

One interesting thing about the AL Central last year was that it was entirely an exercise in bullpen quality in determining how teams finished up. The best bullpen in the AL Central, and MLB? The Twins. And the quality of that bullpen was so high that it was to some extent able to cover for weakness in their rotation, with injuries to Radke and Liriano, a ton of rookies, and a bad season by Silva.

 

The 2nd best bullpen in the AL Central? The Tigers. 4th in MLB. And guess what, they finished 2nd.

 

The 3rd best bullpen in the AL Central? The Chicago White Sox. Down in the 20's in ERA, only slightly better than Cleveland. Ton of saves though, and a much better overall record than the Tribe. And they finished 3rd.

 

The 4th best bullpen in the AL Central? The Cleveland indians. A disaster area for most of the year. Fewest saves in baseball by a lot. Awful record.

 

The 5th best bullpen in the AL Central? The KC Royals. Worst bullpen ERA in baseball.

 

Does that ranking remind you of any other end-of-season ranking that you may have seen? The quality of bullpens in the AL Central was 100% directly correlated with the performance of each team last season. That tells me something.

[LosMediasBlancas]

Not a bad thought, but was strengthening the pen due to the fact that K-Dubs knew they were gonna weaken the rotation?

[RME JICO]

One interesting thing about the AL Central last year was that it was entirely an exercise in bullpen quality in determining how teams finished up. The best bullpen in the AL Central, and MLB? The Twins. And the quality of that bullpen was so high that it was to some extent able to cover for weakness in their rotation, with injuries to Radke and Liriano, a ton of rookies, and a bad season by Silva.

 

The 2nd best bullpen in the AL Central? The Tigers. 4th in MLB. And guess what, they finished 2nd.

 

The 3rd best bullpen in the AL Central? The Chicago White Sox. Down in the 20's in ERA, only slightly better than Cleveland. Ton of saves though, and a much better overall record than the Tribe. And they finished 3rd.

 

The 4th best bullpen in the AL Central? The Cleveland indians. A disaster area for most of the year. Fewest saves in baseball by a lot. Awful record.

 

The 5th best bullpen in the AL Central? The KC Royals. Worst bullpen ERA in baseball.

 

Does that ranking remind you of any other end-of-season ranking that you may have seen? The quality of bullpens in the AL Central was 100% directly correlated with the performance of each team last season. That tells me something.

That is really interesting, I wonder what it was for 2005? Do you have those stats available? If it even comes close to correlating, that would be fascinating.

[Balta1701]

That is really interesting, I wonder what it was for 2005? Do you have those stats available? If it even comes close to correlating, that would be fascinating.

In 2005 the correlation doesn't hold as well, but the differences in the bullpens were less extreme. The #1, #3, and #4 bullpens in MLB in ERA were from the AL Central: Cleveland, Minny, and Chicago (AL), with St. Louis sitting at #2 (in the weaker NL). Detroit sat at #11, and K.C. sat at #22. So the top of baseball was bunched up with the top 3 teams in the AL Central, and then other factors were able to come into play (the starting pitching of the White Sox, the lack of offense of Minnesota).

 

In 2004, the best bullpen in the AL Central was Minnesota, who came in at #11 in MLB. The 2nd best bullpen was the White Sox at #20. K.C. sat at 22, Cleveland and Detroit sitting at 26 and 27. So the top 2 bullpens in the Central were the top 2 teams that year as well.

 

I think the simple fact is, if you put together a good bullpen, it can carry a team to the playoffs and cover up for some weaknesses. If you have no starting pitching at all it can't do it, and if you have no offense at all it can't do it, but it certainly can be a gigantic factor.

[RME JICO]

I think the simple fact is, if you put together a good bullpen, it can carry a team to the playoffs and cover up for some weaknesses. If you have no starting pitching at all it can't do it, and if you have no offense at all it can't do it, but it certainly can be a gigantic factor.

It does make sense too. If you have a strong/deep bullpen, you can go to it earlier and more often than other teams. You can also use match-ups much easier. A good bullpen not only takes pressure off the starters, it also takes some pressure of the offense too.

 

It is definitely an interesting correlation. It might not be exact, but it shows that if you are sub-standard in any facet of the game, you will have a hard time winning consistently.

Edited December 26, 2006 by RME JICO

[Heads22]

I think KW figured out he never wants to be in a Montero situation again...

[southsideirish71]

I never get this. Our fans understand right, that pitching and pitching alone pretty much rode us to our first world series title in a long long time. Yet every single time, we are trying to make a trade with pitching to get more offense. Does everyone remember our offense from 2001-2004. It pretty much put a ton of runs across the board year in and year out. Our crappy pitching and terrible bullpen kept us out of the playoffs year in and year out. To make this team a perennial winner, we need to stockpile arm and make sure our team trys to hit the ball and not try to hit home runs. If we do that we will be fine.

 

We have the makings of one of the hardest to hit bullpens in the game. We will have electric power arms from the 6th on. Why f*** with this.

 

You want to fix the LF situation. Play a platoon of Mack and Ozuna. We have enough offense. What we need is our offense to hit the same way in the 2nd half when the park gets hot, and the pressure gets hot that they do in the first half when the pressure is off, and they forget that the ball flies out of the park like crazy.

[DBAHO]

It's a real interesting question, and one that I hadn't really thought of until now.

 

But I wonder if the Sox could trade say MacDougal and Anderson for Baldelli, if they would think about doing that for example (not that I think it's a good deal because I think BA will rebound).

 

I don't think anything will happen though. The bullpen ERA was a MAJOR reason for us not making the playoffs last season, and KW has shown with his off-season moves that he doesn't want that to be the case again.

[WilliamTell]

I'd rather not trade any pitching for hitting. I don't mind our offense right now aslong as they don't try for the long ball like they have every year except 2005. I really like how the bullpen is forming, that was a big hole last year and it's nice to see that's getting better. The starting pitching rotation is going to be a cause of concern if you ask me. But the 5th starter has to be better than Danny Wright, right???

[Baines3]

We have traded enough pitchers for one off season. I would keep him.

[beck72]

We have the makings of one of the hardest to hit bullpens in the game. We will have electric power arms from the 6th on. Why f*** with this.

 

You want to fix the LF situation. Play a platoon of Mack and Ozuna.

If history holds, MacDougal may not be able to pitch much for the sox the next 3 yrs--no matter how good he is when he's healthy.

 

And Mack and Ozuna won't cut it. The sox will have to get younger position players into the lineup sometime. The sox need a balance between rookies and guys who are older, with maxed out contracts.