The Mets Discussion Thread

[LVSoxFan]

Sorry, but I'm not jumpin on this "Let's Look to the Future!" bandwagon where we trade away everybody who got us to the Series for the potential promise of prospects.

 

WTF is this, some kind of garage sale?

 

In 2005 it was clear that KW wanted to win a WS NOW, and he built a team that could do it, and we did indeed win it.

 

Now we're apparently going back to Jerry-Ball, where we're supposed to marvel at how much money we're unloading by trading away the higher priced guys for IOUs in the form of prospects?

 

And I'm supposed to sit through a 2007 season that's a write-off so we can maybe have a decent 2008?

 

Pfft. Ridiculous.

[shawnhillegas]

I think some of you guys have mentioned this but I too would be more than willing to give up one (or more) of our starters and have a mediocre season in 07 and load up on potentially can't miss prospects (I know that's a contradiction) for another run at this thing starting with 08 and beyond. The time is right if we are going to get rid of any number of our starters.

 

 

How is the time right? In 2008 we wont have Dye or Buerhle and probably wont have Crede or Garland, and who knows about Iguchi. You really expect us to easily replace these guys and rebound right in 2008? How old are Jim Thome and Jose going to be in 2 years? I think the window closes this year and that it will take at least a couple of years to rebound.

[iamshack]

How is the time right? In 2008 we wont have Dye or Buerhle and probably wont have Crede or Garland, and who knows about Iguchi. You really expect us to easily replace these guys and rebound right in 2008? How old are Jim Thome and Jose going to be in 2 years? I think the window closes this year and that it will take at least a couple of years to rebound.

 

The time is right because there is such a ridiculous premium placed upon durable starting pitchers right now.

 

As for your "window," where does this notion come from that once we lose Dye and Thome, and even Crede, we won't be able to acquire other players? The direction KW is going gives the White Sox tremendous financial and roster flexibility, two things extremely important in acquiring players via FA or trade. And Kenny has always shown a willingness to go out and get impact players via trade. Stocking the system with young arms allows us to make any trade we want; it gives us more options than we have had several years.

[beck72]

By the sounds of it, seems Minaya is looking more towards Buehrle. "He is looking for someone with a more established pedigree." I would think Buehrle would qualify as that. He is a proven winner. Any chance he'd be willing to part with Pelfrey and Milledge or maybe even Heilman instead of Milledge?

The mets would likely only make such a deal if they had a window to sign Buerhle. No long term deal, no trade.

 

But I think the sox would make such a deal. But the mets probably wouldn't and rightly so.

[iamshack]

The mets would likely only make such a deal if they had a window to sign Buerhle. No long term deal, no trade.

 

But I think the sox would make such a deal. But the mets probably wouldn't and rightly so.

 

If they wanted to sign Buehrle, I think they would have just signed Zito and avoided having to make a trade.

[Chisoxfn]

With the immenent departure of Jermaine Dye after this year, I would like to see a deal done with Pelfry and Milledge, or no deal at all.

At the very minimum we would need that. In fact, I really think we may have to very well try and force the issue and get a more veteran guy like Heilman in addition to the package (because if we move another starter, we than would be bringing in two new arm's to our rotation and I'd like one of them to be a guy thats pitched at the major league level before, plus it would give us a plan b sort of speak and Heilman is exactly that sort of guy).

 

The problem is there is absolutely no way I see the Mets giving us all three of those things unless we include something else (and I don't know if that would be a non pitching minor leaguer or a lesser pitching prospect or maybe a bench player or something). I really don't know but KW has to know he can't really trade one of our starters now unless he gets major value in return (knock your socks off type deal). Or unless he has a plan B and will be acquiring a proven pitcher at the same time in some sort of three way deal (ie, us finding a way to get Dontrell or Peavy).

[beck72]

If they wanted to sign Buehrle, I think they would have just signed Zito and avoided having to make a trade.

I don't think the Mets would really deal for MB. I was just saying they would have to negotiate something long term for Mark [like 5 yrs or less] in order for them to give up Pelfrey and Milledge.

[RockRaines]

How close is Pelfrey, I was under the impression the guy was almost ready to make the jump.

[iamshack]

How close is Pelfrey, I was under the impression the guy was almost ready to make the jump.

 

Probably a half-season or a full season. He's probably about where Danks is.

Edited December 29, 2006 by iamshack

[Chisoxfn]

How close is Pelfrey, I was under the impression the guy was almost ready to make the jump.

He'd start on a whole heck of a lot of teams today and did get some time in that terrible Mets rotation late last season. Is he ready to dominate, maybe not, but the guy is ready to pitch in the majors (more time wouldn't be horrible). In fact, while he wasn't great in his debut with the Mets, I like the fact that he got to see what the majors were like, talk to Rick Peterson (Mets pitching coach and a darn good pitching coach) and get a feel for what he needed to work on to be ready for the majors next year.

 

Basically put, he can definitely start now (for a lot of organizations). That doesn't mean I guarantee success now, but I think its very likely that he will have long term success. And he would be stlil very raw as he has only pitched one season in the minors (making 4 starts in A, 12 starts in AA, 2 in AAA, & 4 at the major league level. As such considering he hasn't really seen a ton of innings it would be wise to be very careful with him and kind of plan on easing him into the rotation (than give him a break period where you piggy back him with someone else for a bit to ease his workload and make sure he gradually sees his innings increase).

 

If I was running things I think it would probably be best to let him get more time in AAA, monitor his workload carefully (its easier to do it at the ml level where while you are trying to win, you still are looking out first and foremost for your prospects) and than eventually bring him up at some point this year (if a guy goes down) or next year.

 

Basically put if you trade for Pelfrey (and I'm the Sox) I'd trade so knowing that Haeger & Floyd are both far more major league ready. In addition I'd say that Danks is probably a bit more ready as well (based more on his progression as I feel Pelfrey is the more complete pitcher and a bit better prospect (albeit both are great prospects), its just a matter of getting him his innings somewhere and being careful with how we handle him).

[knightni]

Hes back, along with his beautiful wife.

 

 

 

[dmbjeff]

maybe the 07, 08, 09 free agent crop is stocked with some big time talent and kenny is looking to the future to shell out big time money on someone. thus freeing some money now for that thus having cheap pitchers and expensive hitters.

[RockRaines]

Probably a half-season or a full season. He's probably about where Danks is.

So if you make that trade, our rotation moving forward is anchored by Danks, Pelrey, Gio all making minimum amounts of money?

[Balta1701]

So if you make that trade, our rotation moving forward is anchored by Danks, Pelrey, Gio all making minimum amounts of money?

And Floyd, and Haeger, and Broadway, and probably McCullough soon after that, with Liotta, Phillipps, and anyone else we manage to develop or pick up thrown in with it.

 

In other words, yeah, we'd have like 8-9 potential MLB minimum salary, front-of-the rotation guys in there. We'd go from spending $50 million on our starting 5 to spending $10 million on our starting 7.

 

If we couldn't find the money for a decent Shortstop in that setup, then Jerry deserves to be egged.

[Gregory Pratt]

If we can sign Mike Pelfrey, I say, Do it.

 

Trade for Pelfrey, rather.

 

Also, Balta: Uribe is a decent shortstop. Though, I think I know what you meant: Rafael Furcal, or Miguel Tejada!

[Chisoxfn]

If we can sign Mike Pelfrey, I say, Do it.

Just to point something out, but Pelfrey does not have to be signed. He is a rookie who has just one year of minor league experience (having been drafted in 05).

[Balta1701]

Now we're apparently going back to Jerry-Ball, where we're supposed to marvel at how much money we're unloading by trading away the higher priced guys for IOUs in the form of prospects?

Billy Beane trades away Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder for prospects, builds a team that contends or wins that division every year, and gets books written about how he's a genius for playing Beane Ball..

 

Kenny Williams trades away a couple of guys for prospects before they hit free agency 2 years after winning the world series, wins 90 games 2 years in a row, and gets insulted for playing "Jerry Ball (wasn't he an offensive lineman somewhere?)

 

Also, Balta: Uribe is a decent shortstop. Though, I think I know what you meant: Rafael Furcal, or Miguel Tejada!

You get the idea. If we cut our starting rotations' salary by 80%, then presumably, the amount of money spent at other positions would be able to increase. And our bullpen just happens to be ungodly cheap until about 2011 as well thanks to KW's trades this offseason and the stuff we've done in our minor leagues. So we should be able to spend the money to fill in whatever Podsednik or Uribe type gaps do appear in our order.

[thedoctor]

 

 

normally i limit myself to one boob-related post each day but this made me lmao.

[southsider2k5]

Billy Beane trades away Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder for prospects, builds a team that contends or wins that division every year, and gets books written about how he's a genius for playing Beane Ball..

 

Kenny Williams trades away a couple of guys for prospects before they hit free agency 2 years after winning the world series, wins 90 games 2 years in a row, and gets insulted for playing "Jerry Ball (wasn't he an offensive lineman somewhere?)

 

Good catch there B.

 

For all of the people who used to laugh at KW for being Beane's b****, guess who is the ultimate moneyball GM? Kenny Williams has been the ultimate "buy low" GM for years now. Look at the players he has brought to Chicago, and how he got them here. AJ-steal. Dye-steal. Iguchi-steal. Loiaza-steal, and then he turned him into Contreras. He stuck by Crede when he was low, as he did with Rowand and Garland. He stole Jenks from Anaheim for nothing. After all that time of hordeing starting pitching when it was undervalued, he is now spinning it off for young people went it got expensive, while other GMs pay outrageous prices for loads of crap. etc, etc. Moneyball was all about getting the best value in a marketplace, and KW has done exactly that.

[The Ginger Kid]

I'd love to get a look at KW's "board" of targeted prospects. I'd bet that Pelfrey is right up there.

[Balta1701]

I'd love to get a look at KW's "board" of targeted prospects. I'd bet that Pelfrey is right up there.

I hope so, but mainly because I've been sitting here this whole offseason thinking that if the Mets don't sign Zito, there's no team out there that matches up better as a trading partner. The Mets have a starting rotation that is a disaster area, but have a lot of young talent, including in the rotation, and have money to spend on a veteran starter. The White Sox have now 4 veteran starters, with some young talent in their minors but plenty of room for more, but probably don't have the money to spend to keep the veterans in their rotation.

 

Right now, the Mets rotation on opening day pencils in as Glavine, El Duque, John Maine, Oliver Perez, and probably Pelfrey. El Duque, the guy who lost the 5th starter spot for the White Sox in 05, is currently sitting as their #2 guy. No one in their right mind can tell me that rotation will win a world series even if they get Pedro back, let alone get to the playoffs, given that the Braves, Phillies, and Marlins will all be better this year.

[Gregory Pratt]

Just to point something out, but Pelfrey does not have to be signed. He is a rookie who has just one year of minor league experience (having been drafted in 05).

 

I know. Exactly why I said, "Trade for, rather" once I realized the diction error,.

[The Ginger Kid]

sounds like they tried to get a deal done for Freddy but Minaya wouldn't bite. If only we could tempt them with Javy...oh man, for Pelfrey? That would be huge.

[Chisoxfn]

I should add, I wouldn't be shocked if the deal turned out to be something like: Pelfrey, Perez, Milledge. Kenny gets another very good arm that hasn't had success lately in the majors (Perez) and than two very toolsy highly touted guys.

 

Thats if we are even interested in making another deal and I really have no idea if Kenny is (unless of course someone knocks his Sox off). As such if we made any deal I think we'd have to sign one of these pitchers on teh market to an expensive 1 year deal just to have them in there to eat innings (the Weaver type) or of course find a way to acquire Earvin Santana to plug into our rotation (obviously that means Crede goes and would open up a void in our lineup).

 

It would be crazy to imagine us making that many changes in one year, but given Kenny's history I wouldn't be shocked.

[southsideirish71]

I should add, I wouldn't be shocked if the deal turned out to be something like: Pelfrey, Perez, Milledge. Kenny gets another very good arm that hasn't had success lately in the majors (Perez) and than two very toolsy highly touted guys.

 

Thats if we are even interested in making another deal and I really have no idea if Kenny is (unless of course someone knocks his Sox off). As such if we made any deal I think we'd have to sign one of these pitchers on teh market to an expensive 1 year deal just to have them in there to eat innings (the Weaver type) or of course find a way to acquire Earvin Santana to plug into our rotation (obviously that means Crede goes and would open up a void in our lineup).

 

It would be crazy to imagine us making that many changes in one year, but given Kenny's history I wouldn't be shocked.

 

As unpopular as these types of moves are with some of our fans, imagine how unpopular we would be getting old, and letting our rotation ferret off one by one and then having nothing but our original farm guys in the rotation. People say, as I have said to myself, if we could only win this year, I would give up next year and then next few years for this one chance. That however is BS. Because after 2005, I wanted to win it again, and this year I want to win it again. We could set ourselves up with one of the most talented young rotations in baseball for a long time. Thats how you win for a long time and build a dynasty. For adding Pelfrey to this mix, I am willing to take a chance this year on being so so with the pitching. Because our pitching should be damn good for the long haul.