Chicago writer submits blank HOF ballot

[WCSox]

Especially when you consider that steroids saved his career. It was over, and then he found the juice. Suddenly, he became a monster home run hitter again. Gee....

 

According to Canseco, he was on the juice as far back as the late '80s/early '90s.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jan 9, 2007 -> 10:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sorry, but Ripken and Gwynn are two of the most deserving HOFers ever.

 

What makes Ripken so deserving? His .276 career batting average or his 436 career home runs in only 3001 games played (11,551 ABs)?

 

Mark McGwire had a .263 average, .394 OBP, and 583 HRs in 1874 games played (6187) ABs.

 

You sure he wasn't making more of a point that Mark McGwire (who is not going to get voted in) is just as much a hall of famer as Ripken? McGwire is just as deserving as Ripken, if not more so.

[greasywheels121]

I'm stealing this idea from ATH, but it's pretty damn solid:

 

Jose Canseco's not considered a HOFer, what makes Mark McGwire one?

 

Other than HRs, McGwire only has 7 more RBIs and more walks. Canseco's better in just about every category.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(toasty @ Jan 9, 2007 -> 02:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ripken could very well deserve a unanimous election, seeing as his consecutive games record

 

Big deal. He hurt his team just as much as he helped them with that ridiculous record. He should have taken some days off and been a bit more healthy instead of caring so much about that record. It is ridiculous that he belongs in the hall for that record alone. Ridiculous.

 

 

QUOTE(greasywheels121 @ Jan 9, 2007 -> 04:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm stealing this idea from ATH, but it's pretty damn solid:

 

Jose Canseco's not considered a HOFer, what makes Mark McGwire one?

 

Other than HRs, McGwire only has 7 more RBIs and more walks. Canseco's better in just about every category.

 

Canseco's average is only .003 points higher, he has 120 less HRs, and his OBP is 40 points lower. Plus he played in a bit more games than McGwire did with a few more ABs. The comparison is not as close as you make it seem.

[CanOfCorn]

Big deal. He hurt his team just as much as he helped them with that ridiculous record. He should have taken some days off and been a bit more healthy instead of caring so much about that record. It is ridiculous that he belongs in the hall for that record alone. Ridiculous.

 

Hmmm...ok, Cal Ripken:

AL Rookie of the Year

2-time AL MVP

2-time All Star Game MVP

2-time Gold Glove

8-time Silver Slugger

19-Time All Star

Most Home Runs for a SS

His career range factor is higher than Omar Vizquel

He paved the way for taller SS (see: Alex Rodriguez, Miguel Tejada)

 

Mark McGwire:

AL Rookie of the Year

12-time All Star

1-time Gold Glove

3-time Silver Slugger

 

 

Yeah, not so much.

[WCSox]

What makes Ripken so deserving? His .276 career batting average or his 436 career home runs in only 3001 games played (11,551 ABs)?

 

Ripken was a very good defensive shortstop for a long time and is generally recognized as the first power-hitting SS. He also has a ring and the record for consecutive games played.

 

McGwire hit a ton of HRs, but had a low BA and by playing 1B, wasn't much of a defensive asset to his teams.

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

Media (your sports page/magazine, and most importantly sports radio/espn) have this funny way of sensationalizing and glorifying everyone who's had a good career. Some of those in the Hall probably shouldn't be there, but you can't start being selective now. I think the Hall should be reserved for legends: If there's any question about a given players deservedness, then he's not a legend. He's got the right idea, just a few decades too late and probably a bit too extreme. If you wanted to make the Hall perfect, you'd have to start all over. Since you can't, everyone on that ballot should be scrutinized, and only the best should make it, which was the original concept of Hall of Fame voting, wasn't it?

[longshot7]

Just curious, why?

 

Should Doc Gooden and Darryl Strawberry get in the Hall of Fame because of cocaine use too?

 

If their numbers warrant enshrinement, they should be in. Who cares what they had in their bodies at the time?

 

I call them hypocrites because to criticize someone about cheating when no one is perfect or cheated in their life is ludicrous.

[soxpride77]

Hey, he has a right as a voter to vote or not vote. To vote for who he wants to vote for and who he doesn't want to vote for. He made a statement and he has his views...so what. Ripken and Gwynn will still get in.

 

This has nothing to do with whether Gwynn or Ripken get into the Hall anyways, this has to do with a sportswriter having the PRIVILEDGE to vote, and instead of voting for players deserving of getting into the Hall, making himself the story. The guy as far as I know is a complete hypocrite. Did he not vote the last two years? Steroid talk didn't just happen this year, this has been an issue the past two years as well. He said that right now he doesn't feel comfortable voting for anybody who played in the steroid era. What about the past two years, did he turn in a blank ballot then as well? This guy is looking to be the story, in my opinion he only did this because of McGwire being on the ballot, and that in itself is a huge story surrounding this vote. I also have a problem with his rationale because he is assuming people are guilty, before being proved guilty. Does anyone in there right mind think that Tony Gwynn or Call Ripken Jr took steroids?

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 9, 2007 -> 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ripken was a very good defensive shortstop for a long time and is generally recognized as the first power-hitting SS. He also has a ring and the record for consecutive games played.

 

McGwire hit a ton of HRs, but had a low BA and by playing 1B, wasn't much of a defensive asset to his teams.

 

 

 

McGwire was not bad at 1B defensively, and some considered him a pretty good defensive 1B. Just because he played first base does not mean he was not an asset defensively. He also had a very high OBP. Ripken's BA is no great shakes either and his home run total is not even close to McGwire's. McGwire played in half the time that Ripken did (both in years and games played), yet he put up as good or better numbers than Ripken. The consecutive games streak is bull and meaningless to me. I would say he hurt his team as much as he helped them by playing tired and hurt through a lot of that streak. He should have rested a bit more for his team.

[Gregory Pratt]

Hideaway, Shack, I love you guys. I've been making the same points about McGwire not being a HOFer, at the LEAST not a First-Ballot HOFer, because of his one-dimensional nature AND steroids for quite awhile. Glad to see someone else who not only agrees but puts it out there before I jump into the thread.

 

According to Canseco, he was on the juice as far back as the late '80s/early '90s.

 

I believe that. I believe Canseco.

Also, there's the FBI.

 

During an FBI investigation codenamed ‘Operation Equine’ in 1992, officers turned up steroid dealer, Curtis Wenslaff. Wenzlaff's training-session notes show he put McGwire on a mix of Winstrol V, testosterone and Equipoise. In Juiced, Jose Canseco claims to have personally injected McGwire with steroids. McGwire admitted using the Androstenedione found in his locker but it was not banned by MLB nor an illegal substance at the time.

 

Glad to see that he didn't make it. Wouldn't want him to have to talk about the past.

 

Also, I would like to say: this guy is obnoxious for publicizing his blank ballot. But I have no problem with voters who believe that no one should be unanimous because no one's ever been. It's the clear publicity-seeking-nature of this whole thing that bothers me.

[iamshack]

No one can be sure exactly when McGuire started on the roids; many mocked Canseco when his book came out, yet now he looks like the one source of honesty here.

 

Regardless, if you look at McGuire in his glory days with the A's, he was a big man, but more like a Richie Sexson build. Then his career started tanking. Then all of the sudden he is Paul Bunyanesque proportions and his career is rejevenated.

 

The guy had nice slugging numbers from 88-94/95. Then he starts struggling with injuries. Then all the sudden, he manages to not only stay healthy and avoid the injuries, but he starts putting up whopping slugging %'s in 95 until 2000. We are talking about a guy whose slugging percentage increased from about an average of .480 or so during his great years with the A's to about .690 during his great years with the Cards. Now no one here will seriously debate that McGuire was using performance-enhancing drugs, but the point is that he probably saved his career with them.

 

The McGuire situation is entirely different than the Bonds situation, where Barry had HOF numbers prior to getting on the juice. McGuire had the numbers only AFTER he got on the juice, and that's why he should not be allowed in. In fact, in the book "Game of Shadows," the authors even make the argument that Bonds only began juicing BECAUSE of McGuire and Sosa and their ridiculous home run totals.

 

I'm sorry, but I would let Pete Rose in before McGuire.

Edited January 10, 2007 by iamshack

[Middle Buffalo]

Yeah, some of those old votes boggle my mind, I don't know how you can leave some of those guys off the ballot. What possible logic is there to not vote for guys like Mays and Aaron (other than a racist non-vote, which would be pretty pathetic). I didn't realize that it took DiMaggio 3 tries to get in, that's ridiculous.

In the beginning, writers were playing catch-up. The first class was 1936, and voters are limited to 10 players on their ballots, so good players were passed up for years. Here's a year by year list of the results. The players on the first ballot are amazing. http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/history/...ing/default.htm

Edited January 10, 2007 by Middle Buffalo

[hammerhead johnson]

It is ridiculous that he belongs in the hall for that record alone. Ridiculous.

 

Hmmm...ok,

 

Cal Ripken:

AL Rookie of the Year

2-time AL MVP

2-time All Star Game MVP

2-time Gold Glove

8-time Silver Slugger

19-Time All Star

Most Home Runs for a SS

His career range factor is higher than Omar Vizquel

He paved the way for taller SS (see: Alex Rodriguez, Miguel Tejada)

 

Mark McGwire:

AL Rookie of the Year

12-time All Star

1-time Gold Glove

3-time Silver Slugger

 

Yeah, not so much.

 

This is how you silence the meatheads.

[YASNY]

I look at it this way ... If McGwire makes the hall, he made BECAUSE he took 'roids. Sosa and Palmeiro, same thing. As much as I despise Bonds he earned a HOF bid before he took roids.

[greasywheels121]

I look at it this way ... If McGwire makes the hall, he made BECAUSE he took 'roids. Sosa and Palmeiro, same thing. As much as I despise Bonds he earned a HOF bid before he took roids.

 

I definitely agree with you there YAS.

[Balta1701]

I look at it this way ... If McGwire makes the hall, he made BECAUSE he took 'roids. Sosa and Palmeiro, same thing. As much as I despise Bonds he earned a HOF bid before he took roids.

You're assuming he was clean until '98 when he started to balloon. I know no one has said so officially, but I see no reason why I should assume he was totally clean before that. There are quite a few drugs you can take which should help performance without making you balloon into a THGmonster.

[Gregory Pratt]

No one can be sure exactly when McGuire started on the roids; many mocked Canseco when his book came out, yet now he looks like the one source of honesty here.

 

Regardless, if you look at McGuire in his glory days with the A's, he was a big man, but more like a Richie Sexson build. Then his career started tanking. Then all of the sudden he is Paul Bunyanesque proportions and his career is rejevenated.

 

The guy had nice slugging numbers from 88-94/95. Then he starts struggling with injuries. Then all the sudden, he manages to not only stay healthy and avoid the injuries, but he starts putting up whopping slugging %'s in 95 until 2000. We are talking about a guy whose slugging percentage increased from about an average of .480 or so during his great years with the A's to about .690 during his great years with the Cards. Now no one here will seriously debate that McGuire was using performance-enhancing drugs, but the point is that he probably saved his career with them.

 

The McGuire situation is entirely different than the Bonds situation, where Barry had HOF numbers prior to getting on the juice. McGuire had the numbers only AFTER he got on the juice, and that's why he should not be allowed in. In fact, in the book "Game of Shadows," the authors even make the argument that Bonds only began juicing BECAUSE of McGuire and Sosa and their ridiculous home run totals.

 

I'm sorry, but I would let Pete Rose in before McGuire.

 

Pete Rose belongs in the Hall of Fame. Period.

 

I'm with you completely on McGwire/Bonds, though I wouldn't vote for either of them first-ballot, second or third. Let them rot until the Veteran's Committee reaches them.

 

But, then again, I've always believed that disgraced/banned players who deserve it should still be allowed in. Even cheaters, although I'd like it a little more if there were mention of it toward the end on their plaques as opposed to just ignoring it and voting them in.

 

Whatever's done, though, I don't think Great Players should be ignored by the Hall and kept out of it just because they disgraced themselves or even the game.

[southsider2k5]

This is my pet peeve when people start to talk about who should be in the Baseball Hall of Fame or not, its not JUST about a players statistics. [dramatic pause]

 

The standards include

 

"Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

 

Now tell me how anyone who cheated fits into these categories? By their very rules, the HOF is saying we don't want these kind of people enshrined. This is exactly why guys like McGwire, Rose, and company should never share space next to guys like Ripken and Gwynn.

[CanOfCorn]

This is my pet peeve when people start to talk about who should be in the Baseball Hall of Fame or not, its not JUST about a players statistics. [dramatic pause]

 

The standards include

Now tell me how anyone who cheated fits into these categories? By their very rules, the HOF is saying we don't want these kind of people enshrined. This is exactly why guys like McGwire, Rose, and company should never share space next to guys like Ripken and Gwynn.

 

 

Also, you really can't compare Ripken or Gwynn to McGwire. You need to compare Ripken to all other SS of the day. Same for Gwynn. That's why it's always been harder for OF and 1B to get in because of the nature of the position. Ripken is arguably the best SS of all time and certainly paved the way for ARod to play SS. Gwynn was one of the best pure hitters ever to play baseball and wasn't too shabby in the outfield.

 

Who does McGwire compare to in the 80's and 90's at 1B? Was he the best?

[southsider2k5]

Also, you really can't compare Ripken or Gwynn to McGwire. You need to compare Ripken to all other SS of the day. Same for Gwynn. That's why it's always been harder for OF and 1B to get in because of the nature of the position. Ripken is arguably the best SS of all time and certainly paved the way for ARod to play SS. Gwynn was one of the best pure hitters ever to play baseball and wasn't too shabby in the outfield.

 

Who does McGwire compare to in the 80's and 90's at 1B? Was he the best?

 

I fully agree with that as well. Its another reason I don't like the statistical arguements is that when it comes to numbers of different eras, they mean completely different things. I like to look at how dominant player was within his own era, as my primary indicator of whether he belongs in the HOF or not. The idea of just looking at #s is what keeps guys like closers and guys like Burt Blyleven out of the Hall.

[bighurt574]

I'm still not sure how I feel about McGwire getting in. On one hand, I have little doubt that he used steroids which perhaps should prevent or at least delay his induction. On the other hand, it's always impossible to really compare players from different eras, so you're really just looking for the top players from each era to vote into the Hall of Fame. If you accept that steroid use was indeed predominant in the so-called "Steroid Era," it seems an argument can be made that the best "Steroid Era" players still deserve to get in regardless of steroid use.