Vance Law Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2746163 Good gravy, they could throw out a lineup that starts with: Youkilis Helton Ortiz Ramirez Drew Their OBP would be absurd. It would kind of surprise me if the Yankees didn't try to get in on the bidding. A huge upgrade at 1B for them, plus trying to keep him out of Boston. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Would Youkilis play 3rd? but yeah thats a scary lineup, but the Yankees would like Helton i just dont see them making a strong bid, they are trading guys away to add to their system, and the Rockies would ask to much from them i believe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan562004 Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 better have a stacked bull-pen against that team, because they will drive a pitch count up in a hurry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 boston scares me this year... they have some killer starting pitching, a decent bullpen, and an already great line up... add in helton.... look out good thing they're my 2nd favriote team. =D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 QUOTE(hi8is @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 01:21 PM) boston scares me this year... they have some killer starting pitching, a decent bullpen, and an already great line up... add in helton.... look out good thing they're my 2nd favriote team. =D Their bullpen should be their main weakness. Boston has offered right-handed pitcher Julian Tavarez, who is guaranteed $3.1 million in 2007, and third baseman Mike Lowell, who is guaranteed $9 million. In addition, the Rockies gave the Red Sox a list that includes five prime prospects -- center fielder Jacob Ellsbury, and right-handed pitchers Daniel Bard, Manny Delcarmen, Craig Hansen and Clay Buchholz -- and said one would have to be in the deal. They would consider substituting Jon Lester, who underwent chemotherapy for a non-Hodgkin's lymphoma last year, pending medical approval. But Boston GM Theo Epstein has refused to expand his offer past Lowell and Tavarez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan562004 Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 01:59 PM) Their bullpen should be their main weakness. Boston has offered right-handed pitcher Julian Tavarez, who is guaranteed $3.1 million in 2007, and third baseman Mike Lowell, who is guaranteed $9 million. In addition, the Rockies gave the Red Sox a list that includes five prime prospects -- center fielder Jacob Ellsbury, and right-handed pitchers Daniel Bard, Manny Delcarmen, Craig Hansen and Clay Buchholz -- and said one would have to be in the deal. They would consider substituting Jon Lester, who underwent chemotherapy for a non-Hodgkin's lymphoma last year, pending medical approval. But Boston GM Theo Epstein has refused to expand his offer past Lowell and Tavarez. Agree with you about their bullpen. Not to mention the stacked lineups in the AL East they will have to contend with. Anyone know anything about those prospects mentioned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 QUOTE(SoxFan562004 @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 02:03 PM) Agree with you about their bullpen. Not to mention the stacked lineups in the AL East they will have to contend with. Anyone know anything about those prospects mentioned? Ellsbury is an OK hitter, but is better recognized for his defense in CF. Apparently quite good. Delcarmen and Hansen are middle relief prospects. Delcarmen has solid peripherals, but from what the numbers suggest, he's struggled with his command at times. Keith brought up Hansen a while ago, and while I haven't seen him much, the numbers suggest he is pretty overrated. Mediocre command and no ability to strike anyone out at all. Not sure what the hell the deal is with that and why they haven't sent him packing. Helton's declining pretty quickly, but I think he'd mash at Fenway, and he'll be an OBP machine until he's about 38-39. Buchholz is a good looking young SP prospect, but has yet to pitch above A+. Bard is Tiger's Andrew Miller's former college teammate at UNC, but had pretty mediocre numbers and just recently signed, so he won't be able to be actually traded until like next September. You can basically forget him. Lester was just recently cleared of cancer, as it says in the post above. He's not going anywhere. Like I said...if O'Dowd is seriously just asking for Lowell, Tavarez, and Hansen, I don't know how or why Theo hasn't moved yet. That's a no brainer in my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 (edited) To start, whats being rumored, even if it involves Craig Hansen someone I view as the next dominant closer in baseball, is a great deal. Over the next three years, years that will all involve Manny Ramirez, Curt Schilling, etc. Todd Helton will help this team more than Manny Delcarmen or Craig Hansen will. It's as close to fact without being such as it can get. As for the prospects that Colorado is inquiring about, all are top 100 prospects in baseball and phenominal baseball talents. Ellsbury is an excellent hitter, to which everyone compares to Johnny Damon, however he doesn't have the same 15-20 homer power that Damon has. Nonetheless, he's twice the defensive player that Damon is, so if he's able to get on base and do what he's done his entire baseball career with the stick, he'll be plenty helpful in centerfield for the Sox for a long time. Comparing the Red Sox and Yankees? I'm still going to say not at all, or atleast not quite. This deal reminds me of one the White Sox made just a year ago. Acquiring an aging player who's signed to max dollars but will be payed at or below market value is not something the Yankees have done in the past. The most obvious comparison to something the Yankees have done is the Bobby Abreu trade but that was a move that completely contrasted the Yankees game plan of the last 5-10 years and it also resembled nothing close to market value at the time of the deal. Edited January 30, 2007 by redandwhite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 This deal is a no-brainer for the Red-sawks IMO. But we shall see. IMO I didnt think that any of those spects would really be a stud or anything of the sort, but I dont know that much about them to tell the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFanForever Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 QUOTE(redandwhite @ Jan 30, 2007 -> 12:55 AM) To start, whats being rumored, even if it involves Craig Hansen someone I view as the next dominant closer in baseball, is a great deal. Over the next three years, years that will all involve Manny Ramirez, Curt Schilling, etc. Todd Helton will help this team more than Manny Delcarmen or Craig Hansen will. It's as close to fact without being such as it can get. As for the prospects that Colorado is inquiring about, all are top 100 prospects in baseball and phenominal baseball talents. Ellsbury is an excellent hitter, to which everyone compares to Johnny Damon, however he doesn't have the same 15-20 homer power that Damon has. Nonetheless, he's twice the defensive player that Damon is, so if he's able to get on base and do what he's done his entire baseball career with the stick, he'll be plenty helpful in centerfield for the Sox for a long time. Comparing the Red Sox and Yankees? I'm still going to say not at all, or atleast not quite. This deal reminds me of one the White Sox made just a year ago. Acquiring an aging player who's signed to max dollars but will be payed at or below market value is not something the Yankees have done in the past. The most obvious comparison to something the Yankees have done is the Bobby Abreu trade but that was a move that completely contrasted the Yankees game plan of the last 5-10 years and it also resembled nothing close to market value at the time of the deal. Being a Top 100 prospect doesn't really count for much. Just ask Jeremy Reed or Dallas McPherson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 QUOTE(SoxFanForever @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 08:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Being a Top 100 prospect doesn't really count for much. Just ask Jeremy Reed or Dallas McPherson. Well when we're talking about five of them, the odds are rather high that a couple will pan out and be stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 05:37 PM) DEAD. Well, based on previous experience, this now means Helton will wind up a Yankee within a few years. Seriously, the Red Sox are a gigantic market team which is just a little too stubborn about that small-market mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 09:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Seriously, the Red Sox are a gigantic market team which is just a little too stubborn about that small-market mentality. Exactly. The Yankees get this done, the Red Sox decide not to over chump change. Big difference between the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 08:37 PM) DEAD. Of course. The Sawks weren't offering nearly enough to replace the PR hit that the Rox would get by dealing Helton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 And the Red Sox weren't going to trade a front line prospect and have him perform ala Hanley Ramirez, Anabel Sanchez. Might be revisisted down the road because Theo loves Helton, but at this point as mention, it's ova. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Helton's far better than most hitting guys the Sawks have, outside of Ortiz, Ramirez. If they were serious, they would have made a real offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Okay... So what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 From what I can gather, Lowell, Tavarez, and Hansen. Unless Hansen offers some chance to start in the future, that's - at most - a 3Bman who's at the end of his prime, an old, psycho reliever, and a dominant closer at some point in the future (and maybe it's just because I haven't seen Hansen that I don't get the love...I would venture to guess it probably is). Helton will probably be a .900 OPS 1Bman this year still with a .390+ OBP for the next 2 years or so, and by the end of his contract, he'll probably be in the .850 range for OPS with a relatively high OBP all the same. I think that'd be well worth the gamble, seeing as how the Sawks already have a 3Bman out of position at 1B in Youkilis, Tavarez is deadweight, and they have all kinds of pitchers they can use in the bullpen to replace Hansen's presence. Colorado was picking up close to half...I don't know if I would have been able to turn that down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 QUOTE(knightni @ Jan 30, 2007 -> 02:14 PM) Helton's far better than most hitting guys the Sawks have, outside of Ortiz, Ramirez. If they were serious, they would have made a real offer. Its not like the BoSox don't have any offense. They didn't need to make this deal, in fact I wasn't a fan of the proposed deal. Hansen hasn't produced but he has a very very good arm and there is no reason to give a guy like that up for a ridiculously overpaid first baseman. The Sox have a middle of the lineup consisting of two of the best in the game (Manny/Ortiz) plus an OBP machine in JD Drew who will have legitimate protection. What the hell do they need Todd Helton for? Red Sox have spent a little laviciously and may not have offered the best contracts in the world but they improved a whole heck of a lot this off-season (and technically they can afford to offer a little more ridiculous contracts since the franchise generates a boatload of revenue). QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 30, 2007 -> 02:28 PM) From what I can gather, Lowell, Tavarez, and Hansen. Unless Hansen offers some chance to start in the future, that's - at most - a 3Bman who's at the end of his prime, an old, psycho reliever, and a dominant closer at some point in the future (and maybe it's just because I haven't seen Hansen that I don't get the love...I would venture to guess it probably is). Helton will probably be a .900 OPS 1Bman this year still with a .390+ OBP for the next 2 years or so, and by the end of his contract, he'll probably be in the .850 range for OPS with a relatively high OBP all the same. I think that'd be well worth the gamble, seeing as how the Sawks already have a 3Bman out of position at 1B in Youkilis, Tavarez is deadweight, and they have all kinds of pitchers they can use in the bullpen to replace Hansen's presence. Colorado was picking up close to half...I don't know if I would have been able to turn that down. Put it this way, if the Sox had the opportunity to get Hansen (White Sox) I'd be really giddy because of the type of arm he has. But you also have to remember I'm a guy that favors scouting to stats and I know his production has been downright brutal at the minor leagues (still I think the odds are greater of a guy with wicked stuff turning things around and being good than guys with average to below average stuff but great minor league numbers being decent and the guys with wicked stuff always have that potential of being filthy). If I were the Rockies, I'd have been all over it. Helton does them nothing and has an albatross of a deal plus Lowell isn't all that bad (albeit his contract is a bit rough) but he plays 3rd (tougher position to fill than 3rd) and they get two high potential arms). If I'm the Red Sox I see no reason why it is worth giving up all that when you should hold onto those chips to either use at a later date or to fill an actual legitimate lead (because I don't really think getting another masher to play 1st base is much of need). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 im glad they didnt get Helton. They would have killed our bullpen every series we faced them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 dont the rockies have a 3B who just had a very productive season, chucky atkins or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Um.. Garrett perhaps? Chucky knows a larger, oranger ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jan 30, 2007 -> 05:10 PM) dont the rockies have a 3B who just had a very productive season, chucky atkins or something. yeah, but they'd just have Atkins play 1B and Lowell would play 3B due to his superior defense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 30, 2007 -> 05:58 PM) yeah, but they'd just have Atkins play 1B and Lowell would play 3B due to his superior defense They actually have a prospect who is going to displace Atkins at 3B and then they envision Atikins playing 1B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jan 30, 2007 -> 07:52 PM) They actually have a prospect who is going to displace Atkins at 3B and then they envision Atikins playing 1B Ian Stewart, sure. Mike Lowell's a free agent after this season, so they'd just be moving to Atkins over a year early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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