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Massett to Jenks??


Jimbo's Drinker

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QUOTE(Damen @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 11:44 AM)
This season is make or break for our scouts. Most of these trades are based off of guys who don't have the numbers yet but are promised to be studs. If these pan out, I feel extremely confident in the Sox maintaining their position in the Central for some time.

If not, we've got some tough years ahead.

 

Hopefully not.

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QUOTE(ptatc @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 04:31 PM)
actually most pitchers who have taken steriods say it doesn't necessarily increase velocity but it increases your endurance to hold the velocity over a game or to recover more quickly before the next game. This has a lot to do with the fact that strength is not directly correlated to pitch speed. People use the term arm strength and equate pitch speed. however this is not always true.

Can I see the stats on the term "most." Koch was a juicer. 100 MPH one day, 92 mph the next. The guy is out of baseball like that. Im sorry if you love him or whatever, but the guy was a one and done bust in the midst of the steroid era.

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QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 06:45 PM)
Can I see the stats on the term "most." Koch was a juicer. 100 MPH one day, 92 mph the next. The guy is out of baseball like that. Im sorry if you love him or whatever, but the guy was a one and done bust in the midst of the steroid era.

 

The "most" is just from my experience with the pitchers as they are not admitting to the public they did steroids. Unless you have stats on all of the admitted steriods users.

 

As I said before strength is not correlated to speed of the pitch. A drop in pitch speed would not be linked to strength. An injury, change in mechanics or drop in weight could be linked more easily. I'm not saying they can't be linked it's just that from people I've talked to they seem to think that it's more of an endurance recuperation issue not strength. Which makes sense in light of the lack of evidence which correlates strength and pitch speed.

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QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 06:45 PM)
Can I see the stats on the term "most." Koch was a juicer. 100 MPH one day, 92 mph the next. The guy is out of baseball like that. Im sorry if you love him or whatever, but the guy was a one and done bust in the midst of the steroid era.

 

Don't jump the gun so goddamn fast. That's the kind of thing that's gotten this website in trouble.

 

It is possible, you know, for muscles and tendons to tear after heavy usage. Those 97 IP he had in 2002 were the most IP he'd thrown since 1998 when he was a starting pitcher. Add in to the fact that they were high stress innings too, and he had a pretty violent motion as I recall - it's very feasible and probably more realistic to assume that he had slight tears in his rotator cuff (even with him not admitting it) than it is to assume he used steroids.

 

It's very possible, and perhaps likely, Koch was a 'roider. It's not a witch hunt though.

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QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 05:31 PM)
It's very possible, and perhaps likely, Koch was a 'roider. It's not a witch hunt though.

I'll confess, until I learned about his other condition, if I had to pick any player to play on the White Sox who i thought had juiced, it would have been Koch, based on the other reasons people gave here.

 

But after hearing about the condition his whole family is suffering from, I'm leaning towards giving him the benefit of the doubt, or at least throwing him into the void of other guys who we have no idea about. I mean, some sort of wierd degradational environment-related condition starts to make his entire family sick, God only knows what toxin it really is, and I'm supposed to be surprised that his fastball falls apart? And you certainly can't blame the steroids for that other condition, because his whole family suffered from it.

 

With what it sounds like struck his family, I'm moderately surprised he could even throw a ball, let alone get his fastball above 90 mph.

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QUOTE(ptatc @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 07:22 PM)
The "most" is just from my experience with the pitchers as they are not admitting to the public they did steroids. Unless you have stats on all of the admitted steriods users.

 

As I said before strength is not correlated to speed of the pitch. A drop in pitch speed would not be linked to strength. An injury, change in mechanics or drop in weight could be linked more easily. I'm not saying they can't be linked it's just that from people I've talked to they seem to think that it's more of an endurance recuperation issue not strength. Which makes sense in light of the lack of evidence which correlates strength and pitch speed.

Once again, not ALL steroids are for increasing of strength. There are several different kinds. Its not a white bottle that is marked "steroids" and you take it for everything. There are substances that you take that can increase your fast twitch muscle fiber, there are steroids for strength and building muscle, there are even steroids that help you cut your body into leaner muscle. IMO Koch was on the juice, he may not have been looking for strength gains, he could have been looking for rebuilding substances that help him throw harder each game because his recovery time is ridiculous, it could be the fast twitch muscle substances that helped him snap the ball quicker in his delivery. Whatever the case, I believe that he took them, and I think its clear that he may have. Its my opinion, it wont get anyone on the site in trouble, im not mentioning sources or anything. I am saying, to me, it looks like he was one of the more obvious juicers that had come through our clubhouse.

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QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 11:14 PM)
Once again, not ALL steroids are for increasing of strength. There are several different kinds. Its not a white bottle that is marked "steroids" and you take it for everything. There are substances that you take that can increase your fast twitch muscle fiber, there are steroids for strength and building muscle, there are even steroids that help you cut your body into leaner muscle. IMO Koch was on the juice, he may not have been looking for strength gains, he could have been looking for rebuilding substances that help him throw harder each game because his recovery time is ridiculous, it could be the fast twitch muscle substances that helped him snap the ball quicker in his delivery. Whatever the case, I believe that he took them, and I think its clear that he may have. Its my opinion, it wont get anyone on the site in trouble, im not mentioning sources or anything. I am saying, to me, it looks like he was one of the more obvious juicers that had come through our clubhouse.

 

Your exactly righton how steriods are used and that is my point. Pitchers do not take steriods for strength as a whole. They take it for endurance and recuperation.

 

As far as the fast twitch muscles, the muscles which specifically control the shoulder are the rotator cuff muscles. These muscles are unipennate muscles composed of more type IIa fibers or the fast twitch fibers with higher glycolytic and vascular properities like slow twitch muscles. They are not effected by steriods as much as the bigger muscles with larger cross sections.

 

As I said before however muscle strength does not correlate to pitch speed. Koch may very well have been on steriods. That was the rumor but I didn't know him. The idea that a sudden drop in pitch speed has no bearing on determining if someone was on steriods. Recovery time, injuriesand body composition all would be a better determination than pitch speed. That is my point.

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