LowerCaseRepublican Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 A parent at the school I teach at is upset that I am not requiring all students to stand for the pledge of allegiance. She wrote to the local paper about it. Enclosed is her piece and my piece that I dropped off to the paper on Friday that is likely also going to run as a guest commentary. Her piece about little ol' me: A great disrespect is currently occurring at my daughter's junior high school and I am furious! My daughter's teacher is not having the children in the room stand while reciting the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. The American flag represents the freedom, independence and liberty of this great country. The majority of adult Americans voluntarily show their respect of the flag on a daily basis. Our ancenstors of this country have fought for the rights the flag represents. Legend has it Betsy Ross had sown the first flag of the United States in 1776. Ross created this flag at the request of our nation's first president George Washington. The first flag was displayed as the Declaration of Independence was read in July 1776. This flag symbolized our country's independence from England. Our flag has global recognition as belonging to the United States of America, also known as the home of the brave and the land of the free. The red and white stripes of the flag are symbolic of the blood that has been shed in defense of our country and the clean and clear freedoms we posses (sic). Most Americans have a family history of defense for this country we call home, either directly or indirectly. Civil, revolutionary and world wars have been fought in protection and defense of the United States of America -- both proactively and reactively. Our county (sic) is in a war currently as a reaction to another country's citizens attempt to terrorize the USA. Thousands of men and women are risking their lives right now to allow us, here in America, to sleep safely at night. Most adult Americans recognize the significance of the flag. We wear the flag on our clothing, display it on our cars and homes and enjoy viewing it all year long. No one forces the citizens to wear or display the flag, Americans do it out of respect and loyalty. American adults had been taught this unwritten respect and loyalty at an early age; it is widely accepted by most. My daughter's generation is the wave of the future. Her generation will soon be in the political government arena, and they will become our precedent and record setters. With what values and respect will the future generations take with them into adulthood if they are not instilled in them now? An Illinois public school, funded with taxpayer dollars and filled with American students should employ teachers who were taught why they are able to work for and live amongst the people of this nation. An elementary school teacher can be a significant role model for a child. Our children should have access to the best adult role models in the academic setting who instill the children to become the best they can be. American children have been standing while reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools since 1892. My daughter's class is full of American citizens attending a public school inside the United States. Her class should be instructed to rise at every flag salutation and Pledge of Allegiance they witness out of respect for the flag's symbolic representation. Our children should learn their family's history of involvement with the freedom and independence our country has. The children should also be aware of our country's current war situation taking place in the Middle East. By instilling the foundation now of our future generation, they too will grow into loyal and proud American adult citizens. And...my response which has yet to get printed but is likely going to run as a guest commentary Ms. Sakovich's letter regarding the pledge of allegiance was very emotionally powerful but failed to address major Constitutional problems that lie within her demand. The soldiers who have died protecting our freedoms do indeed deserve to be honoroed. However, one of the freedoms they fought and died to protect was the freedom of speech and expression -- such as to allow students to not be forced by anyone to stand and recite the pledge. Even the American Legion concurs, supporting voluntary flag observance. In "Illinois public school(s) funded with taxpayer dollars and filled with American students", these schools submit to the regulations within the US Constitution. The Supreme Court of these United States ruled in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that public schools in America are not legally able to require all students to salute the flag and recite the pledge of allegiance. The Justices decided that the forced recitation violated students' First and Fourth Amendment rights that they do not shed upon entering the schoolhouse door. These fundamental rights may not be submitted to a vote. The Supreme Court made it clear: "If there is any fixed star in our Constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein." At the school, the students are asked to stand by the principal over the intercom before the pledge is read. I ask the students to be respectful but I legally cannot and will not infringe upon their personal civil liberties. The students who refrain from standing are quiet and respectful in the room. The flags we have are simply symbols. If all the flags were destroyed, the values we share would not immediately be incinerated because they are in our hearts and in our mids as something we all cherish. America is more that just a flag. It is the system of values, ethics and ideas that protect the rights of the individual. It is the ideas and values enshrined in the Constitution that make our nation truly great, such as the freedom of expression. While some see it as not wanting to honor America, public schools are honoring the rich tradition of freedom by protecting the rights of students if they choose not to stand for the pledge. Having loyalty for the country and venerating our values is wonderful, but not at the ironic expense of the blatant violation of Constitutional civil liberties that these students have. While people including myself may not personally agree with their position to stay seated, I tolerate it because of the freedoms that a truly great land as America affords us. As Justice Brennan wrote: "If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable." God bless America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 The flags we have are simply symbols. If all the flags were destroyed, the values we share would not immediately be incinerated because they are in our hearts and in our mids as something we all cherish. America is more that just a flag. It is the system of values, ethics and ideas that protect the rights of the individual. It is the ideas and values enshrined in the Constitution that make our nation truly great, such as the freedom of expression. While some see it as not wanting to honor America, public schools are honoring the rich tradition of freedom by protecting the rights of students if they choose not to stand for the pledge. Having loyalty for the country and venerating our values is wonderful, but not at the ironic expense of the blatant violation of Constitutional civil liberties that these students have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 The majority of adult Americans voluntarily show their respect of the flag on a daily basis. ? Does anyone here say the pledge of allegiance or something similar to the flag every day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Do the students in your class who don't stand decide to not do so on their own, or were they somehow encouraged to not stand by you? (Not accusing you of anything, just asking) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Feb 3, 2007 -> 10:50 AM) Do the students in your class who don't stand decide to not do so on their own, or were they somehow encouraged to not stand by you? (Not accusing you of anything, just asking) It is during the morning homeroom where I only have 13 kids in the room. It's from 8:00-8:17 (5 minutes for locker time and then lunch count/getting kids who forgot their lunch card down to the office to get their lunch card, announcements, pledge, call downs for detention/ISS reminders) When announcements come on, I ask the kids to be in their seats and quiet to hear the daily announcements (if they need books, if the library is closed et al.) Then the principal asks them to stand for the pledge. I stand as well as some of the students and the pledge is read and then the principal calls down the kids that have detentions/ISS. I never mentioned a single word pro or con regarding the pledge (I modeled the appropriate behavior by standing) except that they'll be respectful when the intercom is on, until this lady wrote this letter to the paper -- and only then it was this letter that I wrote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Good for you, LCR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chet Lemon Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 When I was in high school a few years back, they started up the pledge immediately after the 911 tragedies, but it had always been optional. It was a large, public high school in the Chicago suburbs, yet all sides were happy as far as I knew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 you should make them burn an American flag in homeroom everyday. if you did that you could probably get a guest appearance on the "O'reilly Factor" and maybe even "Hannity and Combs". imagine how sweet that would be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 QUOTE(CrimsonWeltall @ Feb 3, 2007 -> 10:38 AM) ? Does anyone here say the pledge of allegiance or something similar to the flag every day? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 QUOTE(CrimsonWeltall @ Feb 3, 2007 -> 10:38 AM) ? Does anyone here say the pledge of allegiance or something similar to the flag every day? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 QUOTE(mr_genius @ Feb 3, 2007 -> 07:35 PM) you should make them burn an American flag in homeroom everyday. if you did that you could probably get a guest appearance on the "O'reilly Factor" and maybe even "Hannity and Combs". imagine how sweet that would be You could also have them all wipe their ass with a copy of the Constitution every day, but then you'd probably have the Department of Justice flying in to recruit them for some job openings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 QUOTE(mr_genius @ Feb 3, 2007 -> 06:35 PM) you should make them burn an American flag in homeroom everyday. if you did that you could probably get a guest appearance on the "O'reilly Factor" and maybe even "Hannity and Combs". imagine how sweet that would be I teach kids how to burn the flag all the time. I organize a weekly flag burning down on South Padre Island each week during the summer. I've been saving up American flags to burn. You wouuldn't believe how many people will give them to me to burn. I probably have close to a hundred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskyCaucasian Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 QUOTE(CrimsonWeltall @ Feb 3, 2007 -> 10:38 AM) Does anyone here say the pledge of allegiance or something similar to the flag every day? Baseball Players do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 QUOTE(Athomeboy_2000 @ Feb 4, 2007 -> 10:52 AM) Baseball Players do National Anthem ≠ Pledge of Alliegance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Feb 4, 2007 -> 10:44 AM) National Anthem ≠ Pledge of Alliegance but it is a way of honoring the country AND the flag... therefore... the Anthem = Pledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 QUOTE(Reddy @ Feb 4, 2007 -> 11:54 AM) but it is a way of honoring the country AND the flag... therefore... the Anthem = Pledge Fair enough. Crimson did say 'Pledge or something similar,' though I was refocusing on teh mater at hand and LCR and the Pledge in the clasroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Yes, I would include people standing for the national anthem at sports events. I still don't see any way a majority of adults are doing it on a daily basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 QUOTE(CrimsonWeltall @ Feb 4, 2007 -> 12:51 PM) Yes, I would include people standing for the national anthem at sports events. I still don't see any way a majority of adults are doing it on a daily basis. in this statement you are correct. even though some (NUKE and whomever else) may honor the flag/country on a daily basis the VAST VAST majority does not on an everyday basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 One of my friends in highschool was pretty far out in left field. He didn't necessarily agree with the pledge. At one of our pep-rallies for the football team (you can guess that he wasn't a fan of that, either), he didn't stand for the pledge. One of the teachers forcefully made him stand up as he continued to resist. They suspended him indefinitely until he agreed to recite the pledge and give them an apology. That lasted all of about 10 minutes until he contacted a lawyer. The school ended up writing him a formal apology. He home-schooled himself after that incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreye Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 In think the kids should stand. They don't have to recite it, but standing to me is a sign of respect not to the nation, but the others reciting the pledge around you. I continue to stand when the Canadian Anthem is sang. I stand with parishoners at a church that is not my religion. Why? Respect for others. This is how I teach my kids. This is how I would hope others would teach theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 QUOTE(mreye @ Feb 6, 2007 -> 07:57 AM) In think the kids should stand. They don't have to recite it, but standing to me is a sign of respect not to the nation, but the others reciting the pledge around you. I continue to stand when the Canadian Anthem is sang. I stand with parishoners at a church that is not my religion. Why? Respect for others. This is how I teach my kids. This is how I would hope others would teach theirs. That's how I am too, unfortunately all too many people can't handle the respect part of the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreye Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Feb 6, 2007 -> 08:09 AM) That's how I am too, unfortunately all too many people can't handle the respect part of the equation. I'm glad to hear that you're raising your kids the right way (my way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 QUOTE(mreye @ Feb 6, 2007 -> 09:04 AM) I'm glad to hear that you're raising your kids the right way (my way). Don't worry, she'll have a Soxtalk account soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreye Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Feb 6, 2007 -> 09:07 AM) Don't worry, she'll have a Soxtalk account soon I can just see you two fighting over the computer. You'll have to set up a network at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 I am so conflicted with this area. I see a flag being raised or lowered and I stop and show the proper respect. Most others don't even notice. I see a worn flag and wish the people would replace it, yet I am grateful it is even being displayed. Like Nuke, my workday, when I am in the office or at one of our satellite facilities, begins with the raising of the flag and ends with retiring the colors. That doesn't make me more patriotic, nor does it make me a better American. But I do believe strongly in that respect. I treasure living in a country that allows for the freedom to choose. To not stop, to not pay attention, to not care, that doesn't bother me. Blatant, active, willful disrespect does. I will support your right to sit quietly, but respect my right to salute and recite the pledge. And by the way, also respect my right to offer a prayer to my God as I will respect your right to offer a prayer to your God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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