The Pledge at Public Schools

[StrangeSox]

The only reason they need is the desire not to. They don't have to prove their case and its really none of the teachers' and school's business.

[NorthSideSox72]

You still haven't answered this question? So what are the specific, valid reasons that some of these kids aren't standing?

Was it becuase they are Jehovah's Witnesses? I know you said that could be a reason, but you didn't say if it was THE reason some of your students didn't stand Oh and what grade is this?

I think you are missing the point. They don't need a reason NOT to - they can stand or not stand as they desire. They can stay seated because they feel like it. That is maybe not what some of us would like to see, but, that is the point LCR is making. He cannot force them to stand.

[Controlled Chaos]

The only reason they need is the desire not to. They don't have to prove their case and its really none of the teachers' and school's business.

 

I'm not talking legally. I'm just curious what it was like one day when one kid just decided not to stand up.

 

Was the student asked what he/she was doing or was it just assumed they knew their rights? Was it then explained to the class that they can stand or not? Was there a class discussion on there? Did the discussion on standing for the pledge happen before the students decided not to stand?

[LowerCaseRepublican]

You still haven't answered this question? So what are the specific, valid reasons that some of these kids aren't standing?

Was it becuase they are Jehovah's Witnesses? I know you said that could be a reason, but you didn't say if it was THE reason some of your students didn't stand Oh and what grade is this?

The Supreme Court says that I legally cannot force them to stand. They do not have to give a reason to me. Forced compulsion to stand is un-Constitutional. They need not give a reason as to why they don't want to stand, per dictum of the W VA case.

 

And 7th grade.

 

I'm not talking legally. I'm just curious what it was like one day when one kid just decided not to stand up.

 

Was the student asked what he/she was doing or was it just assumed they knew their rights? Was it then explained to the class that they can stand or not? Was there a class discussion on there? Did the discussion on standing for the pledge happen before the students decided not to stand?

It came from a parent whose kid was standing and who felt others should be as well.

 

The classes know they can stand or sit. It is during homeroom so there isn't much time for discussion (there's barely enough time for lunch count, getting kids their missing lunch numbers, announcements, the pledge and calling kids down to the office)

[SleepyWhiteSox]

PC BS aside, it sounds like more of a matter of discipline than Constitutional rights. Seventh graders don't know about this supposed right; sounds like they're doing it just to rebel and disobey. They should just be taught to show respect and common courtesy and stand for the pledge. You're probably doing them and yourself more of a disservice by allowing them to undermine your authority as their teacher just because "they feel like it."

 

And I'm still curious to find out how many teachers have been arrested for making all of their students stand for the Pledge of Allegiance and "infringing on their Constitutional rights"...

[StrangeSox]

PC BS aside, it sounds like more of a matter of discipline than Constitutional rights. Seventh graders don't know about this supposed right; sounds like they're doing it just to rebel and disobey. They should just be taught to show respect and common courtesy and stand for the pledge. You're probably doing them and yourself more of a disservice by allowing them to undermine your authority as their teacher just because "they feel like it."

 

How is it undermining his authority? He has no authority to make them stand.

 

If they want to do it just to be bastards, there is nothing he can do to stop them.

 

edit: He can explain to them why he thinks they should stand. He can explain about the respect and what the flag really means. He can tell them about why he stands for the pledge. But he cannot, in any way, shape or form demand that they also stand.

 

And I'm still curious to find out how many teachers have been arrested for making all of their students stand for the Pledge of Allegiance and "infringing on their Constitutional rights"...

 

I already posted an example of what happened when they tried to do just that to my friend. They backed down as soon as a lawyer informed them of their blatant violation of the law. Had they continued to try and force him, you can bet that there would have been legal action.

Edited February 12, 2007 by StrangeSox

[Controlled Chaos]

The Supreme Court says that I legally cannot force them to stand. They do not have to give a reason to me. Forced compulsion to stand is un-Constitutional. They need not give a reason as to why they don't want to stand, per dictum of the W VA case.

 

And 7th grade.

It came from a parent whose kid was standing and who felt others should be as well.

 

The classes know they can stand or sit. It is during homeroom so there isn't much time for discussion (there's barely enough time for lunch count, getting kids their missing lunch numbers, announcements, the pledge and calling kids down to the office)

 

OK I shouldn't have used sleepys quote cause I wasn't specifically looking for the legalaties of the whole thing.

 

I know the parent wrote in about kids not standing and I know the student doesn't have to give a reason, but how did the kids know they didn't have to stand. Did it start at the beginning of the school year with a couple kids not standing or did one day after all the kids always standing one kid just stopped?

[Soxbadger]

And I'm still curious to find out how many teachers have been arrested for making all of their students stand for the Pledge of Allegiance and "infringing on their Constitutional rights"...

 

How could they arrest the teacher?

 

First of all the lack of understanding of United States law is some what perplexing. In order to be arrested, you have to do something CRIMINAL. The case that LCR quoted is a Supreme Court case, it does not proscribe the conduct as illegal, but instead proscribes it as unconstitutional.

 

Therefore the real question is:

 

"How many teachers have been fired."

 

Because that is the basic end of the road here. Its feasible that in a specific sitatuion a teacher could be sued individially, but in most cases it would be the school who would be the prime target (teachers have less money than a school district).

 

So the question is, would you risk being fired forcing a student to do something that is unconstitutional?

 

The answer for most people is no.

 

They can stand for a valid reason or no reason, but it really doesnt matter.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

How could they arrest the teacher?

 

First of all the lack of understanding of United States law is some what perplexing. In order to be arrested, you have to do something CRIMINAL.

 

I was purposely over-exaggerating...noone in their right mind will probably even discipline a teacher for having all of their students stand for the pledge, but thank you for the law lesson.

 

I still think it's political correctness being taken wayy too far. At that age, those kids should be learning to follow the simple rule being given over the intercom and stand respectfully. Sounds like the parents agree.

[longshot7]

I won't stand for it until "Under God" is taken out.

[StrangeSox]

I was purposely over-exaggerating...noone in their right mind will probably even discipline a teacher for having all of their students stand for the pledge, but thank you for the law lesson.

 

I still think it's political correctness being taken wayy too far. At that age, those kids should be learning to follow the simple rule being given over the intercom and stand respectfully. Sounds like the parents agree.

 

If they continually violate Constitutional rights after being told to stop, I'd venture to guess that they'd be disciplined/ fired.

 

I also don't see what Constitutional rights have to do with "political correctness."

 

And I also disagree that we should be programming children to blindly follow orders and instructions without question.

Edited February 12, 2007 by StrangeSox

[Soxbadger]

At that age, those kids should be learning to follow the simple rule being given over the intercom and stand respectfully. Sounds like the parents agree.

 

Yep just like black people should have listened when they were told to sit at the back of the bus. Or when women could not vote.

 

And sorry but your excuse of over-exaggerating does not fly. You posted legal fiction in a thread where you are trying to make a legal argument. That is not a very good plan if you want people to give your argument any merit.

 

You are also wrong, there is a Supreme Court case discussing this exact issue. So by saying:

 

"Who in their right mind would discipline a teacher"

 

The answer is, the Supreme Court of the United States of America. It seems that it is pretty important if the SC took the time out of their day to make a ruling on the case.

 

Just because they are children does not mean that they have no rights. No one can make me stand for the pledge, so why should the govt be able to make children? If anything it has serious nationalistic/propaganda implications and goes against the basic ideas of the constitution.

 

Hence why it was over 100 years before the pledge was written (by a baptist socialist btw) and had nothing to do with the founding principles. Most of the founding fathers would have been outraged by the idea, because it is basically like an oath of loyalty. Not to mention the addition of "under god" which was not even part of the original pledge for the first 50 years.

 

But hey, lets force kids to do s*** because we say so. That will really make them want to follow the rules as they get older.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Yep just like black people should have listened when they were told to sit at the back of the bus. Or when women could not vote.

 

 

Yes, I see the exact similarities also. That's exactly what these 7th-graders are thinking when they don't stand! Way to make a solid comparison...

 

 

And sorry but your excuse of over-exaggerating does not fly. You posted legal fiction in a thread where you are trying to make a legal argument. That is not a very good plan if you want people to give your argument any merit.

 

I did not post legal fiction; I merely asked a question. And I am not making an argument but simply stating my opinion on the matter. Nice try though.

[Gregory Pratt]

I used to stand all the time in gradeschool. No problem at all. I stand for it at public events and all that at my current school.

Except in the morning because we never hear it because we're in the barn taking care of the animals (new cow's being born!).

[Soxbadger]

Yes, I see the exact similarities also. That's exactly what these 7th-graders are thinking when they don't stand! Way to make a solid comparison...

 

Just because you do not value the rights of 7th graders, does not mean that they do not value them.

 

How is it not similar?

 

In all 3 cases you have groups who are having a different set of rules placed on them.

 

Case A:

 

Based on color of skin

 

Case B:

 

Based on gender.

 

Case C:

 

Based on age.

 

Unless you can find any sort of rule where adults have to stand up during the pledge. Because I think most would agree that any law requiring adults to stand during the pledge would be blatantly unconstitutional.

 

And quit backpeddling, you used the:

 

"How many teachers have been arrested"

 

As an argument that none have, so therefore its not an issue.

 

When the real reason 0 have is because they could not be.

 

Sorry but if you werent clear enough thats not my fault.

Edited February 12, 2007 by Soxbadger

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Just because you do not value the rights of 7th graders, does not mean that they do not value them.

 

How is it not similar?

 

In all 3 cases you have groups who are having a different set of rules placed on them.

 

Case A:

 

Based on color of skin

 

Case B:

 

Based on gender.

 

Case C:

 

Based on age.

 

Unless you can find any sort of rule where adults have to stand up during the pledge. Because I think most would agree that any law requiring adults to stand during the pledge would be blatantly unconstitutional.

 

And quit backpeddling, you used the:

 

"How many teachers have been arrested"

 

As an argument that none have, so therefore its not an issue.

 

When the real reason 0 have is because they could not be.

 

Sorry but if you werent clear enough thats not my fault.

 

I'm not arguing if it's Constitutional or not. I'm sorry if you continually fail to realize that but it's not my fault.

 

Hell, they could burn American flags and hold klan rallies if they want to, Constitutionally. But at that age, and these are 11- and 12-year-old 7th grade children we're talking about, I think they should be learning to be respectful and mind their manners. These kids aren't doing it to become better people through the experience. They're doing it to disobey and do what they want.

 

If I'm a parent, I tell my kid to mind his teacher when appropriate, be respectful, and stand. Didn't realize I'm in the minority on that sentiment.

[Soxbadger]

But at that age, and these are 11- and 12-year-old 7th grade children we're talking about, I think they should be learning to be respectful and mind their manners. These kids aren't doing it to become better people through the experience. They're doing it to disobey and do what they want.

 

If I'm a parent, I tell my kid to mind his teacher when appropriate, be respectful, and stand. Didn't realize I'm in the minority on that sentiment.

 

Well that is exactly the point.

 

The parent, not the govt, should be telling their kid what to do. See there is a subtle difference there. The parent can say:

 

Johnny you better stand up during the pledge or you will be grounded.

 

The Parent's actions can not be unconstitutional, because they are not govt action.

 

Parents, not the teacher, not the school, not the govt, should be the ones telling their children what is "respectful."

[CanOfCorn]

I'm not arguing if it's Constitutional or not. I'm sorry if you continually fail to realize that but it's not my fault.

 

Hell, they could burn American flags and hold klan rallies if they want to, Constitutionally. But at that age, and these are 11- and 12-year-old 7th grade children we're talking about, I think they should be learning to be respectful and mind their manners. These kids aren't doing it to become better people through the experience. They're doing it to disobey and do what they want.

 

If I'm a parent, I tell my kid to mind his teacher when appropriate, be respectful, and stand. Didn't realize I'm in the minority on that sentiment.

 

Well that is exactly the point.

 

The parent, not the govt, should be telling their kid what to do. See there is a subtle difference there. The parent can say:

 

Johnny you better stand up during the pledge or you will be grounded.

 

The Parent's actions can not be unconstitutional, because they are not govt action.

 

Parents, not the teacher, not the school, not the govt, should be the ones telling their children what is "respectful."

 

And let's make this point: Jehovah's Witnesses don't BELIEVE they should stand for the Pledge. Is it disrespectful to America or to their religion? Is one right greater than another? And what if the family are conscientious objectors to war? Passivists? Perhaps that IS how the kids were brought up?

 

Sleepy, you have the right to raise your kids however you want. Well, maybe not however...but you know what I mean. If you want your kids to stand for the Pledge, than instill that in them. But, there will come a point (and 7th grade might be to young) that your kids should be able to think for themselves, and not worry about what you think.

[CrimsonWeltall]

They're doing it to disobey and do what they want.

 

How do you know what their reason is?

[hammerhead johnson]

How do you know what their reason is?

 

I think that he has a degree in psychology.

 

But then again, you don't need to have a psych degree in order to understand human behavior.

 

7th graders don't have the intellectual training that is required to take a stand against the government, against religion, etc. If they're choosing not to stand, they're either [A] attention-starved or under the influence of some straight-up dickheaded parenting.

 

If one out of every ten 7th grade males even knew what a wet dream was, I'd be shocked. These dudes are sperming in their pants and they don't even know it. Talk about a bunch of space cadets.

[Texsox]

If I'm a parent, I tell my kid to mind his teacher when appropriate, be respectful, and stand. Didn't realize I'm in the minority on that sentiment.

 

I don't think we are the minority.

[StrangeSox]

If I'm a parent, I tell my kid to mind his teacher when appropriate, be respectful, and stand. Didn't realize I'm in the minority on that sentiment.

 

You're not in the minority. No one is arguing that the kids shouldn't stand, just that they have that right and teachers (government) cannot force them to. It's up to the parents to teach them respect for the flag, not for the government to force them.

[iWiN4PreP]

you should make them burn an American flag in homeroom everyday. if you did that you could probably get a guest appearance on the "O'reilly Factor" and maybe even "Hannity and Combs".

 

imagine how sweet that would be

 

 

lmao