The official "Greg Oden vs. Kevin Durant thread

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Feb 9, 2007 -> 05:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so you agree that you were overstating yourself?

I'm admitting I failed to clarify what I meant by most good young talent. Not an overstatement by any means.

 

I'm sure many people make the same mistake running on fumes, writing a paper and studying for a test late at night. As good looking as I am, I'm human, baby.

[ZoomSlowik]

If they really had as much good young talent as you claim their record wouldn't be so crappy. Not having Pierce is counter-acted by the crap-tacular division that they play in. Jefferson and Green are really the only exceptionally talented ones, and the latter still needs at least another year before he takes off, he needs to work on his shot selection. The rest of them are decent but not stellar, especially when you consider how much more playing time they've been getting with Pierce and Sczcerbiak missing so much time. Teams aren't exactly going to be beating down Boston's door to give up stars and high picks for those guys.

 

Besides, the long rumored deal for Gasol to Boston is Jefferson, the pick, and Ratliff, and I can't imagine it'd be THAT much less for Bibby. That doesn't exactly leave you as much as you seem to think it would, though Gasol and Pierce still might be enough.

 

Boston might have more young players, but when you throw in "good" young talent, the Bulls have to be considered better since they are actually winning games.

[redandwhite]

As I said, the Bulls have some excellent young talent. However, if were talking about trades and being realistic in the process. The Bulls shouldn't trade Luol Deng, shouldn't trade Kirk Hinrich, shouldn't trade Ben Gordon (who I would give up in a heartbeat) or else the nucleus of that team will be disrupted.

 

The Celtics won't trade Jefferson but beyond that, when talking about a realistic trade, the Celtics have more young talent able to be used as bait without disrupting the nucleus of the team.

 

Point in case, the Bibby example I gave.

 

P.S. Where are you seeing that Jefferson would have to be included in talks with Memphis? Throughout the summer when talks of Bibby first started, and from the draft until the night Iverson was traded Jefferson's name was never involved. I'd say at this point Pierce is traded before Jefferson, which is tough to say because Pierce is my all time favorite basketball player.

[ZoomSlowik]

As I said, the Bulls have some excellent young talent. However, if were talking about trades and being realistic in the process. The Bulls shouldn't trade Luol Deng, shouldn't trade Kirk Hinrich, shouldn't trade Ben Gordon (who I would give up in a heartbeat) or else the nucleus of that team will be disrupted.

 

The Celtics won't trade Jefferson but beyond that, when talking about a realistic trade, the Celtics have more young talent able to be used as bait without disrupting the nucleus of the team.

 

Point in case, the Bibby example I gave.

 

P.S. Where are you seeing that Jefferson would have to be included in talks with Memphis? Throughout the summer when talks of Bibby first started, and from the draft until the night Iverson was traded Jefferson's name was never involved. I'd say at this point Pierce is traded before Jefferson, which is tough to say because Pierce is my all time favorite basketball player.

 

The problem is that NONE of those guys has anywhere near enough value to complete a trade for a player of that caliber except for Jefferson. Also, Boston doesn't have a sizeable expiring contract, which hurts their ability to make a deal. Whatever team got Ratliff would be stuck with him for an extra year. It's not that easy to just add money to a deal for Boston because of the large number of cheap youngsters of varying talent that they have.

 

Your Bibby deal is extremely unlikely. You're not going to get a good starter for one passable PG, another backup PG, a highly paid stiff with a non-expiring contract, and a future pick unless Sacramento gets seriously desperate. That deal doesn't help them unless that pick gets very high value, which would be a lot less likely with Bibby/Pierce/Jefferson/this year's pick in Boston. It would likely take at least one of Jefferson or this year's pick, or possibly something like Green, Gomes or West and a future un-protected pick. Guys like Telfair, Allen, and Perkins just don't have a whole lot of value, and even Gomes and West aren't stellar. They're going to have to sacrifice at least one of Jefferson, Green, or the pick to even get close to getting something done for Gasol or Bibby, and even then unless it's Jefferson the Bulls can likely beat it by giving up one of Deng/Gordon/Hinrich (though the last one would be tough with the poison-pill clause in his contract), or possibly something like Nocioni/Thomas (or possible Sefolosha)/Brown/future pick (or likely the Knicks' pick if it's Sef).

 

I first saw that Memphis deal in a Sporting News article, but if you look hard enough you can find it in a lot of places. It's not a proposed deal, it's what it would likely take to make it happen. Considering that Memphis' original asking price for the Bulls was Deng AND Gordon, I don't see Boston getting away with much less if they want to get it done, especially without an expiring contract. The current offer from the Bulls is supposedly Gordon, PJ Brown (large expiring contract), and either a future pick or the Knicks' pick with top-2 protection, so about the only way Boston would beat that is with a package like was mentioned.

 

The Bulls are the only team in the league with all of the pieces that teams want: a number good young players, a large expiring contract, and a likely lottery pick. They easily have the best chance of making a deal if they chose to go that route.

Edited February 9, 2007 by ZoomSlowik

[redandwhite]

I stopped reading after you threw Tony Allen under a bus. You clearly don't watch enough Celtic basketball, which to be honest, I don't blame you for. This losing streak started when Allen went down. He's an Artest like defender and a better shooter. He doesn't have the size or strength that Artest has, but he's very comparable.

 

Also, the Ratliff situation. He's signed for one more year. I imagined the deal taking place this offseason which means it would be expiring at the end of the season. Even if the trade were to be made near the deadline this year, a guy with only one more year left on his deal when guys like Brad Miller and Shareef Abdur-Rahim have 3+ makes a whole lot of sense.

 

Basically. When talking about the Celtics. I'd rate Jefferson, Green, and Allen as great young talents. Gomes, Rondo, West, and Perkins as good talents who haven't been able to show consistency.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Basically. When talking about the Celtics. I'd rate Jefferson, Green, and Allen as great young talents. Gomes, Rondo, West, and Perkins as good talents who haven't been able to show consistency.

 

Problem is you're probably all alone on those ratings...

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Feb 9, 2007 -> 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Problem is you're probably all alone on those ratings...

We'll see in the future, when a deal is made, my friend.

[ZoomSlowik]

I stopped reading after you threw Tony Allen under a bus. You clearly don't watch enough Celtic basketball, which to be honest, I don't blame you for. This losing streak started when Allen went down. He's an Artest like defender and a better shooter. He doesn't have the size or strength that Artest has, but he's very comparable.

 

Also, the Ratliff situation. He's signed for one more year. I imagined the deal taking place this offseason which means it would be expiring at the end of the season. Even if the trade were to be made near the deadline this year, a guy with only one more year left on his deal when guys like Brad Miller and Shareef Abdur-Rahim have 3+ makes a whole lot of sense.

 

Basically. When talking about the Celtics. I'd rate Jefferson, Green, and Allen as great young talents. Gomes, Rondo, West, and Perkins as good talents who haven't been able to show consistency.

 

Allen is decent, but he's far from an elite piece. He's a mediocre scorer, and though he's a good defensive player you're going a little nuts there. He's not a difference maker, he's a glue-guy on a good team, which generally has little value in trades.

 

At the end of the season that would be another story with Ratliff, but Gasol would likely be gone by then, and who knows about Bibby. Mid-season he's going to have little value, because while the contracts of those guys might be longer, they're also actually useful players at this point in their careers. They're also making considerably less money per year (Rahim is at about 6, Miller at about 9, Ratliff at about 12), so the short-term cost in money and cap flexibility negates a lot of the value of the future savings. It also makes the actual deal harder to pull off because the salaries on each side have to be withing 125% of each other.

 

Allen is far from a "great" young talent. He's not a guy with All-star potential by any stretch of the imagination. If he can't get over 25 minutes per game for these depleted Celtics, how good can he really be? Green does have a lot of talent, but he's just not a center-piece for a major deal yet.

 

Rondo still needs some work before he can be considered a good trading chip as well, and Perkins needs MAJOR improvement to get his stock back to anywhere near what it was coming into the draft (plus if I'm not mistaken this is his last year on his rookie deal).

 

I'd guess that it's MUCH more likely that they stand pat and see what happens in the lottery. If they get Oden or Durant they might move some pieces to build around a Pierce/Jefferson/Oden or Durant trio, though I doubt it'd be a blockbuster move since that'd be 3 of their 4 major trading chips staying put, with Green having by far the lowest value of that group right now.

Edited February 9, 2007 by ZoomSlowik

[redandwhite]

Really isn't much else to say. I've been optimistic about this team from the start, with the mindset that while we'll be an awful team this year, we're heading the right direction something that wasn't the case in years past.

 

Good convo.

[ZoomSlowik]

Really isn't much else to say. I've been optimistic about this team from the start, with the mindset that while we'll be an awful team this year, we're heading the right direction something that wasn't the case in years past.

 

Good convo.

 

They do have a decent chance to be good in the near future. Pierce and Jefferson already looks like a nice foundation, and they have a very good chance to add Oden or Durant. Even if they get screwed in the lottery, someone like Brandan Wright, Horford or Noah would be a nice addition.

 

One major problem that I see is Wally Sczcerbiak. He's a one-dimensional player with an awful contract, and it looks like you guys are stuck with him for several more years. He's also a real detriment to their development as a team as he eats up valuable minutes on the wing that should be going to Green (that's killing my fantasy team ), and it'll get A LOT worse if they end up with Durant. He's got to go if they want to succeed. Even if they could get something like PJ Brown and Malik Allen from the Bulls (note: I am NOT endorsing this deal AT ALL) that'd give them some much needed cap relief to possibly add a good free agent (Mike Bibby might be available, and some other lofty targets would be Billups, Carter, Lewis, or a more realistic target might be Mo Williams). I might even package some of those non-essential youngsters to get it done (ie Rondo or Telfair, Perkins, maybe Gomes, though I'd try to avoid that).

 

I actually would kind of like to see the Celtics good again, it's disgusting how bad they've been of late given their rich tradition.

[redandwhite]

http://nbadraft.net/prevenas077.asp

[RockRaines]

http://nbadraft.net/prevenas077.asp

this could be your best post ever. What a great read.

[danman31]

Yeah, that was a great article.

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Feb 10, 2007 -> 02:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this could be your best post ever. What a great read.

This could be your best post ever. You're not complaining for a change.

[RockRaines]

This could be your best post ever. You're not complaining for a change.

I was just messin with ya dude. Great article though.

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Feb 10, 2007 -> 06:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was just messin with ya dude. Great article though.

 

As was I.

 

I agree with the article, really well written for something done on nbadraft.net - I didn't think that site was as respected as this article makes them seem. My favorite part:

 

Possible Durant Ceilings: Dirk Nowitzki, Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett, George Gervin. Total NBA championships: zero.

 

Possible Oden Ceilings: David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Bill Russell. Total NBA championships: seventeen.

[southsider2k5]

What should Pax do if the Knicks pick ends up as the #1?

[RockRaines]

What should Pax do if the Knicks pick ends up as the #1?

Oden would fill a huge need for the Bulls. In fact I will say that i think he is better than Ben Wallace, right now.

[ZoomSlowik]

Oden would fill a huge need for the Bulls. In fact I will say that i think he is better than Ben Wallace, right now.

 

I would definitely say that's true. Oden is bigger and is actually a threat on offense, and is probably on about the same level defensively.