Ken Rosenthal Talks Offseason Moves

[Gregory Pratt]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6466022

Of White Sox interest:

 

1. The Phillies' acquisition of right-hander Freddy Garcia from the White Sox for right-hander Gavin Floyd and left-hander Gio Gonzalez.

 

Some Phillies officials were so astounded by the White Sox's low asking price, they initially considered the deal a salary dump. Garcia, 31, is a free agent after this season, increasing his motivation to succeed.

[Flash Tizzle]

but...but..but.. OUR SCOUTS LIKED WHAT THEY SAW IN FLOYD!

They scout the player, not the stats, you know.

Williams will do whatever possible to receive his players.

 

That about covers the excuses I heard.

 

Too bad they couldn't scout Fabio Castro and reacquire him.

Edited February 14, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[spiderman]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6466022

Of White Sox interest:

 

Talk about a difference of opinion...The White Sox think that they have the two best lefty prospects in baseball with Gonzalez being one, and the Phillies, according to Rosenthal, don't think he's much of anything.

[CWSGuy406]

but...but..but.. OUR SCOUTS LIKED WHAT THEY SAW IN FLOYD!

They scout the player, not the stats, you know.

Williams will do whatever possible to receive his players.

 

That about covers the excuses I heard.

 

Too bad they couldn't scout Fabio Castro and reacquire him.

 

Oh God no, Philly scouts mocking the Sox?!?!?!?! What ever will we do? I wonder if those were the same scouts who liked Adam Eaton enough to give him $24 million dollars. Or the same scouts that liked that 'awesome' package of players they received for Bobby Abreu.

[Flash Tizzle]

Oh God no, Philly scouts mocking the Sox?!?!?!?! What ever will we do? I wonder if those were the same scouts who liked Adam Eaton enough to give him $24 million dollars. Or the same scouts that liked that 'awesome' package of players they received for Bobby Abreu.

Obviously not.

[iWiN4PreP]

Oh God no, Philly scouts mocking the Sox?!?!?!?! What ever will we do? I wonder if those were the same scouts who liked Adam Eaton enough to give him $24 million dollars. Or the same scouts that liked that 'awesome' package of players they received for Bobby Abreu.

 

haha.

 

I also thought we could get more for garcia, but it's not bad.

[DrunkBomber]

That trade I seemed to mind the least out of any others too...

[iWiN4PreP]

mmhm, i dont understand why we just got all that we got, why not add aaron rowand? hes a good 4th outfielder, i duno, just add something else.

[Flash Tizzle]

That trade I seemed to mind the least out of any others too...

You know, even though I criticize the move, I'm not losing sleep over the package. I only felt at the time, as I do now, that Williams should have asked for more considering the market for FA pitchers. The blurb from Rosenthal suggests to me Williams was his own worst enemy.

 

McCarthy is a whole other discussion. Whether Masset transforms into Jenks Jr. or not, he's likely a bullpen arm for the remainder of his career. Considering McCarthy's value (even with the poor year out the bullpen), I would have asked for Hurley and Danks. If Texas denied that, fine -- we still would have had McCarthy for 5+ seasons.

Edited February 14, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[gosox41]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6466022

Of White Sox interest:

 

 

Hopefully Kenny and his scouts know their stuff.

 

I've said before that KW will be known as the GM who brought a WS championship to Chicago but his legacy will be what he does in the next few years.

 

I hope Gavin Floyd turns out to be something good for the Sox.

 

 

 

Bob

[santo=dorf]

But after looking it over some more, would we really want BMac for another 5 years? He was discovered by our s***ty scouts. Right Flash?

 

I see Rowand's name mentioned. Wasn't he drafted and signed by the Sox's scouts within the last 10 years?

 

How much impact should we expect from a player if he was drafted 1 or 2 years ago? This isn't the NBA or NFL.

 

Back to the Garcia trade, I said at the time the Sox should've gotten more, and I still feel that way. On the day Freddy was traded, Schmidt, Lilly and Meche all signed big contracts. IMO KW thought that was the best time to sell, but Jennings netted a nice package, and Marquis and Miguel Batista got overpaid as well.

Edited February 14, 2007 by santo=dorf

[Gregory Pratt]

I'm withholding judgement to see how Freddy rebounds, arm-wise, how Floyd turns out, and how Gio turns out, but I just don't like this deal and never really did.

[Flash Tizzle]

But after looking it over some more, would we really want BMac for another 5 years? He was discovered by our s***ty scouts. Right Flash?

 

I see Rowand's name mentioned. Wasn't he drafted and signed by the Sox's scouts within the last 10 years?

 

How much impact should we expect from a player if he was drafted 1 or 2 years ago? This isn't the NBA or NFL.

 

Back to the Garcia trade, I said at the time the Sox should've gotten more, and I still feel that way. On the day Freddy was traded, Schmidt, Lilly and Meche all signed big contracts. IMO KW thought that was the best time to sell, but Jennings netted a nice package, and Marquis and Miguel Batista got overpaid as well.

Yeah, he was. Unfortunately, a projected #3 starter doesn't make up for the problems across other divisions of this team. Williams didn't trade for the prospects he did because he was confident in our current collection.

 

Or don't you remember the recent comments he made, which you obviously looked at before writing your post? Williams himself realizes the problems within our minor league system.

 

Rowand's nothing more than a 4th OF. Chris Young, however, was a great signing and may develop into a superstar. Unfortunately, he's gone. We hardly have the type of talent necessary to sustain success within this devision. This ultimately is the key. I don't know how many times I've repeated such a statement. Even before Williams' offseason trades I suggested he take that path. Others criticized me. Now that he's doing percisely that, it's genius.

 

How else will future pitching staffs be assembled, since apparently, contracts beyond 3 years for pitchers are avoided? Are we destined to search through scrap heaps year after year looking for the next "coop project?"

 

t doesn't matter when I hear responses such as "how many teams would like a Liriano," or "what about player x within our organization" -- the job is winning. Set the expectations high and perhaps people will begin doing their job. It's obvious we've been relying too much on trades, too little on player development. Too bad it took an outrageous pitching market for Williams to realize changes may be neccessay, since -- you know -- Cleveland/Minnesota/Detroit all have blue-chip prospects in their systems. All three aren't going anywhere, either.

 

Last point -- expecting production from drafted players one or two years ago may be unwarranted, but what about all the years previous to that? Latin America is still uncharted territory with our scouts.

Edited February 14, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[FlaCWS]

Listen, I think Rosenthal makes a valid point about the low asking price and Freddy's motivation in a contract year. But you have to give Kenny the benefit of the doubt. In '05 no one thought we got enough for Carlos Lee. No one thought the signings of AJ or Dye meant much of anything. Guys like Jenks and Thornton were pretty much discarded by their old teams. Somehow Kenny saw something in these guys. His track record speaks for itself over the past two years. I don't mean to sound like a Ken Williams apologist, but he absolutely deserves the benefit of the doubt. And it'll be a few years before we can truly evaluate this deal, because it'll depend on what Gio does, if anything, in the majors.

[Flash Tizzle]

Listen, I think Rosenthal makes a valid point about the low asking price and Freddy's motivation in a contract year. But you have to give Kenny the benefit of the doubt. In '05 no one thought we got enough for Carlos Lee. No one thought the signings of AJ or Dye meant much of anything. Guys like Jenks and Thornton were pretty much discarded by their old teams. Somehow Kenny saw something in these guys. His track record speaks for itself over the past two years. I don't mean to sound like a Ken Williams apologist, but he absolutely deserves the benefit of the doubt. And it'll be a few years before we can truly evaluate this deal, because it'll depend on what Gio does, if anything, in the majors.

I'm never giving anyone benefit of doubt for anything. If Williams made a move one day after the World Series which I disliked, I would have criticized him if I felt it were necessary.

 

Maybe it's my mindset, but I can't blindly sit back and tell myself that.

[jphat007]

The 5th starter race will be fun to watch this Spring, and interesting (notice the fun goes away) to watch during the year. Hopefully that fun will continue on. Watching Floyd, or at least hearing about him, will be really interesting.

[sircaffey]

Listen, I think Rosenthal makes a valid point about the low asking price and Freddy's motivation in a contract year. But you have to give Kenny the benefit of the doubt. In '05 no one thought we got enough for Carlos Lee. No one thought the signings of AJ or Dye meant much of anything. Guys like Jenks and Thornton were pretty much discarded by their old teams. Somehow Kenny saw something in these guys. His track record speaks for itself over the past two years. I don't mean to sound like a Ken Williams apologist, but he absolutely deserves the benefit of the doubt. And it'll be a few years before we can truly evaluate this deal, because it'll depend on what Gio does, if anything, in the majors.

 

The point really isn't if this deal turns out good for us 5 years down the road. The point in question is whether we could have gotten more. Trades shouldnt just be evaluated by long term effect, but whether or not true value was met at the time of the trade.

 

As far as the benefit of the doubt with KW goes, I agree if this were small signings or little trades, but KW hasn't really proven that he's capable of getting or giving real worth for quality major league talent. Does anyone just love any of his trades involving quality major league talent? Every deal is, "Oh we'll see in five years." That's not a very confident thought. I think if anything, KW doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt with moves like this until he actually makes one that works out.

[EvilJester99]

For as much as KW complained about the FA market he was in the catbird's seat when it came to the starters he traded and certainly should have gotten more for Freddy and IMO sold himself short. Given if Floyd comes out and does well it will more than likely be a moot point anyway.

[Frank the Tank 35]

Listen, I think Rosenthal makes a valid point about the low asking price and Freddy's motivation in a contract year. But you have to give Kenny the benefit of the doubt. In '05 no one thought we got enough for Carlos Lee. No one thought the signings of AJ or Dye meant much of anything. Guys like Jenks and Thornton were pretty much discarded by their old teams. Somehow Kenny saw something in these guys. His track record speaks for itself over the past two years. I don't mean to sound like a Ken Williams apologist, but he absolutely deserves the benefit of the doubt. And it'll be a few years before we can truly evaluate this deal, because it'll depend on what Gio does, if anything, in the majors.

 

KW also took the money saved from CLee and spent it on other holes in the roster.

 

The point really isn't if this deal turns out good for us 5 years down the road. The point in question is whether we could have gotten more. Trades shouldnt just be evaluated by long term effect, but whether or not true value was met at the time of the trade.

 

[sircaffey]

While I don't totally disagree with you, I am interested to hear how you would rate the Podsednik trade?

 

Value wise, I personally rate it the worst out of the major deals KW has made. I struggle to believe that the going rate for a .300-30-100-10 guy with 2 yrs left on his contract at an affordable price was a one tool LF and a 6/7th inning guy? I find it very very hard to believe that's all we could have gotten for Carlos. I love how it all turned out (AJ/Gooch). Overall, we definitely were better for making such a deal, but we did not get fair compensation for Carlos, imo. I think the salary savings and personal problems Ozzie and KW had with Carlos affected the "need" to get Carlos off the team a bit much.

[Heads22]

People will be yearning for Garcia when he gets a standing ovation for bloodying up his ganja hand by pitching through a blister.

[DBAHO]

Can I ask, if we're talking about a "fair" package for Garcia, based on the trades we've seen with similar starting pitchers, what type of package are we talking about here?

[sircaffey]

Ok, but at times, you always can't have the best of both worlds. The reason I brought that deal up was because of the value that Carlos had, yet the unspectacular package that was brought back. Now, while the value of Lee was probably not reached, the trade was a huge success. If we don't make that deal, there isn't a chance we win it all. Sometimes there is more to a deal than just "Value." Williams used a chip that he had(Lee) and turned him into two pieces that he thought we needed(A leadoff hitter and bullpen help). Williams also knew the budget the 05 club was working on, and understood to obtain the players he wanted (Hermanson-Gooch-Duke), bigger salaries would have to be moved.

 

Sure it would have been nice to re-stock the farm with the Lee trade, but would that have really helped in 2005? Williams had a plan that off-season to win NOW, and getting Pods-Viz was a way to further that goal.

Sorry if that is a little odd, I am talking on the phone as I write this.

 

I understand that portion. But we're really not discussing that. That's a whole entirely different topic, imo. That logic basically suggests that all of KW's trades were good ones. He's very good at addressing needs and going out and filling them. In theory they are helpful deals, but that doesn't make them "good" deals. But that's really not what we're discussing here so I'll stay away from that.

 

Just because the Pods trade turned out to be a success, doesn't mean it couldn't have been more successful. Likewise, the Garcia trade could turn into a steal, but it could have been that much more of a steal if equal value was met. Now if that's all the Brewers were willing to give, and there were no other leadoff options on the market, then I accept the fact that KW had to make that deal. However, I don't believe that to be the case. Judging by KW's main trades, I think he just settled for Pods/Viz. That's where the problem lies. Continually undervaluing your own players and overvaluing other players is not a good trend.

Edited February 14, 2007 by sircaffey

[GoodAsGould]

I don't know how anyone can say the Carlos Lee trade was a good one. We could of gotten Pods/Vizcaino and atleast a pretty damn good prospect for him. And it would still be a "salary dump"

 

Just because it was a salary dump doesn't mean you cant get more value than what we did get. And I'm fairly positive there were a bunch of deals out there that were better than what we got out of it. That being said, we did win the WS so even though it wasn't a good trade, that kind of takes any sting someone could have from it away.

[badatbest]

I completely agree. Garcia could blow out his arm this year and Gio could win 20 games but i call that luck, not KW being a prophet.

 

Baseball is too random to only judge a trade based on how it works out in the end. I personally judge a trade on the value that KW got for someone...and i think he could have done better witg garcia. If you consistantly get value in a trade, your chances of "winning" the trade in the end are better.