Ken Rosenthal Talks Offseason Moves

[Jordan4life_2007]

I completely agree. Garcia could blow out his arm this year and Gio could win 20 games but i call that luck, not KW being a prophet.

 

Baseball is too random to only judge a trade based on how it works out in the end. I personally judge a trade on the value that KW got for someone...and i think he could have done better witg garcia. If you consistantly get value in a trade, your chances of "winning" the trade in the end are better.

 

Nothing against you, but I find it mind-boggling that the guy that got roasted all year long (Kalapse's intimidation has a new name sig being the cherry on the sundae), the guy that people couldn't wait to get rid of soon enough, is the same guy that has everybody crying and whining that we didn't get enough value for him? What exactly were we supposed to get for a guy that had exactly one year remaining on his current contract? Somebody please enlighten me.

Edited February 14, 2007 by Jordan4life_2007

[GoodAsGould]

I dont mind the Garcia trade, would of been nice if we could of got 1 more piece but the organization thinks highly of the 2 arms we got so ill stick with them, i was going on about the carlos lee trade.... who I personally loved

[knightni]

(Waits for Pods 2.9 million joke)

 

Nah.

 

It's a joke all by itself.

[witesoxfan]

Nothing against you, but I find it mind-boggling that the guy that got roasted all year long (Kalapse's intimidation has a new name sig being the cherry on the sundae), the guy that people couldn't wait to get rid of soon enough, is the same guy that has everybody crying and whining that we didn't get enough value for him? What exactly were we supposed to get for a guy that had exactly one year remaining on his current contract? Somebody please enlighten me.

 

People probably would have liked to have seen the package the Rockies got for Jennings - a good young starter, a fringe MLB pitcher, and a CFer. Floyd and Gio have to cover the front two in some form, and some (me included) may consider Floyd slightly more than a fringe MLB pitcher. Perhaps not this year, but his upside is higher than Buccholz.

 

And it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Gillick was ready and willing to give Rowand back to the Sox, and KW turned it down simply because it would have cut a ton into the Sox budget. I'm not exactly sure who else is in the Phillies system that the Sox could have used, but mainly the fans just wanted some other piece thrown in, even if said piece didn't make it to AA.

[shoota]

I'm never giving anyone benefit of doubt for anything. If Williams made a move one day after the World Series which I disliked, I would have criticized him if I felt it were necessary.

 

Maybe it's my mindset, but I can't blindly sit back and tell myself that.

 

I like that philosophy. Bad is bad; good is good. No reason to judge on a curve.

 

Nothing against you, but I find it mind-boggling that the guy that got roasted all year long (Kalapse's intimidation has a new name sig being the cherry on the sundae), the guy that people couldn't wait to get rid of soon enough, is the same guy that has everybody crying and whining that we didn't get enough value for him? What exactly were we supposed to get for a guy that had exactly one year remaining on his current contract? Somebody please enlighten me.

 

You might have a point if Soxtalk's anti-Garcia members were the only ones stating KW traded Garcia below his value. Many experts agree that KW received a package below Freddy Garcia's value.

[Texsox]

I completely agree. Garcia could blow out his arm this year and Gio could win 20 games but i call that luck, not KW being a prophet.

 

Baseball is too random to only judge a trade based on how it works out in the end. I personally judge a trade on the value that KW got for someone. If you consistantly get value in a trade, your chances of "winning" the trade in the end are better.

 

I edited out one statement so I could agree 100%. But one caveat. Value varies by team. Trying to not bring any single trade into this, but if your team needs a closer and you have someone rated a F and can land a B, that is huge value to you. If the other team has two closers, an A and a B and can trade it for a C where they have an F, perhaps both team win, even though a C was traded for a B?

 

Perhaps I am needlessly complicating this, but a player's value can shoot up dramatically by switching teams.

[GoSox05]

i have come to the conclusion that sports writers have no idea what they write about.

[iWiN4PreP]

i have come to the conclusion that sports writers have no idea what they write about.

I'll second that.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

Sports Writers for the most part are hated, so they have to pull stories out of their behinds.

[RockRaines]

Where's our Liriano?

[Jimbo's Drinker]

we better have one of these kids step up...we only have liike 5 awesome prospects. If they suck, could be the end of KW's scouts.

[CanOfCorn]

There's one aspect that people are forgetting...money. Either money right now or in the future. Equal talent is definitely an aspect of every trade...but we have to think about the money that comes off the books or the Sox won't have to pay.

 

Just keep in mind that there are many factors that go into a trade, not just talent for talent.

[sircaffey]

I don't know how anyone can say the Carlos Lee trade was a good one. We could of gotten Pods/Vizcaino and atleast a pretty damn good prospect for him. And it would still be a "salary dump"

 

Just because it was a salary dump doesn't mean you cant get more value than what we did get. And I'm fairly positive there were a bunch of deals out there that were better than what we got out of it. That being said, we did win the WS so even though it wasn't a good trade, that kind of takes any sting someone could have from it away.

 

100% true.

[bigruss]

Where's our Liriano?

 

kenny is thinking that gio could be the next liriano, everybody has to admit that the twins just raped the giants in the AJ trade, but i believe that opened eyes across baseball and making teams less hesitant to trade away top prospects, more trades like Bostons Beckett trade have already haunted teams, so trading for Garcia is a huge risk for the team, he's over 30, had a dead arm for the first half of last year, didnt pitch statistically all that well, and has one year left on his contract, so really, did Kenny underrate him? i dont think so, i think most of the guys here are overrating Garcia and if i had to trade for him i wouldnt give up to much more than what the Phillies gave up.

 

And i cant remember who but somebody posted asking for a major trade that included majorleague talent that KW was succesful, the Seattle trade for Garcia was succesful in my mind, yes they got some good young players but none are stars while Garcia was one of our top pitchers for every year he was with us(except last year) he helped us win a world series with great pitching in the post season, and now brought us back a good prospect and a coop project with his value being the lowest in his career

 

 

we better have one of these kids step up...we only have liike 5 awesome prospects. If they suck, could be the end of KW's scouts.

 

 

Kenny knows that the Sox need to draft better, and i think that with the ability of the system to contribute with guys like broadway, gio, danks, sweeney, and fields etc, that they can go after more high ceiling prospects who have a less chance to make it or just farther from the bigs. The influx of pitching talent higher in the system will enable the sox to have more time in developing these guys since they wont need to worry about replacing older vets whose time may be up.

 

that said, i love all the "small" trades that kenny does, and if we dont have a good draft this year then we should decide to make some changes in our amateur and college scouting departments

[sircaffey]

And i cant remember who but somebody posted asking for a major trade that included majorleague talent that KW was succesful, the Seattle trade for Garcia was succesful in my mind, yes they got some good young players but none are stars while Garcia was one of our top pitchers for every year he was with us(except last year) he helped us win a world series with great pitching in the post season, and now brought us back a good prospect and a coop project with his value being the lowest in his career

 

That was me. I didn't ask for a trade that turned out successful. I asked for a trade that at the time that it was made, everyone agreed Kenny made a fantastic deal (value wise). The Garcia trade with Seattle was MUCH debated.

Edited February 14, 2007 by sircaffey

[elrockinMT]

I reserve my opinion till after the season. B) Trades and FA signingsa re a crap shoot anyway. This year might not work out, but next year could see one of these palyers being a Cy Young. You just never know. I thin k we could have done better for Freddie, but what we got was young talent with a high ceiling. Too late to worry about it now.

[badatbest]

There's one aspect that people are forgetting...money. Either money right now or in the future. Equal talent is definitely an aspect of every trade...but we have to think about the money that comes off the books or the Sox won't have to pay.

 

Just keep in mind that there are many factors that go into a trade, not just talent for talent.

 

 

Any way you cut it, the Garcia trade was a salery dump. We were trying to get cheap young talent; i think we could have gotten more.

[southsideirish]

Did we receive a better deal than what we gave up to acquire Freddy Garcia to begin with? I mean we acquired a Freddy Garcia that was probably at his prime market value for Mike Morse, Miguel Olivo, and Jeremy Reed.. BWAAHAHAHAHA!!! And people hated that deal when we made it saying that we gave up too much. OH NO! We lost Jeremy Reed and Miguel Olivo!! What are we going to do now?!?!?

 

 

 

Now we trade Freddy Garcia at one of the low points of his career when his arm seems to have lost a lot of velocity for whatever reason and we get 2 young pitching prospects in Gavin Floyd and Gio. Now everyone thinks we didn't get enough in return? What did you people expect to get back for pitcher that has pitched a ton of innings the last few years, has lost velocity, and is in the last year of his contract? I don't know what you people expected or wanted in return for this guy. If someone can please tell me that then please dazzle me.

 

 

 

I think I will trust the White Sox and their scouts rather than the people that criticize them on this board. For the most part, the critics are wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Feb 14, 2007 -> 03:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

People probably would have liked to have seen the package the Rockies got for Jennings - a good young starter, a fringe MLB pitcher, and a CFer. Floyd and Gio have to cover the front two in some form, and some (me included) may consider Floyd slightly more than a fringe MLB pitcher. Perhaps not this year, but his upside is higher than Buccholz.

 

And it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Gillick was ready and willing to give Rowand back to the Sox, and KW turned it down simply because it would have cut a ton into the Sox budget. I'm not exactly sure who else is in the Phillies system that the Sox could have used, but mainly the fans just wanted some other piece thrown in, even if said piece didn't make it to AA.

 

 

 

Isn't Jason Jennings younger, cheaper, and better than Freddy Garcia? I think the answer is yes to all 3 of those questions.

 

 

 

I will wait and see if those players the Astros gave up for Jennings turn out to be as good as Floyd and Gio. I really don't think the pitchers will and I really don't want Taveras on the White Sox. I don't think he is very good at all.

 

 

 

QUOTE(bad at best @ Feb 14, 2007 -> 11:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Any way you cut it, the Garcia trade was a salery dump. We were trying to get cheap young talent; i think we could have gotten more.

 

 

 

How so and in what way? You can say we did not want to sign him for more than just this season, but is that a salary dump? A salary dump to me is when you have a guy with a few more years left with a salary you just don't want to pay any longer. Carlos Lee was a salary dump and a great move at that. That is not the case here. He is only making 9 million this year. That is one hell of a deal for a pitcher of his caliber.We were definitely trying to get young, cheap talent, but isn't that what every GM is looking for? I don't see that as a bad thing at all. What did you expect to get in return for a pitcher that has shown a decline, has lost velocity, and is in the last year of his contract? Please tell me. If you are going to disagree with something why don't you have an opinion on what they should have done or what they should have received in return and why. I honestly don't see it.

 

 

 

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Feb 13, 2007 -> 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm never giving anyone benefit of doubt for anything. If Williams made a move one day after the World Series which I disliked, I would have criticized him if I felt it were necessary.

 

Maybe it's my mindset, but I can't blindly sit back and tell myself that.

 

 

 

What have you agreed with in the past that KW has done? Have you agreed or thought much of any of his deals or signings?

 

 

 

What is your track record in agreeing or disagreeing with KW and his scouts? How did that turn out for you? I have a feeling you are more wrong than right when it comes to what moves the Sox should or shouldn't have made.

 

 

 

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Feb 13, 2007 -> 11:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Value wise, I personally rate it the worst out of the major deals KW has made. I struggle to believe that the going rate for a .300-30-100-10 guy with 2 yrs left on his contract at an affordable price was a one tool LF and a 6/7th inning guy? I find it very very hard to believe that's all we could have gotten for Carlos. I love how it all turned out (AJ/Gooch). Overall, we definitely were better for making such a deal, but we did not get fair compensation for Carlos, imo. I think the salary savings and personal problems Ozzie and KW had with Carlos affected the "need" to get Carlos off the team a bit much.

 

 

 

Then what do you expect to get in return for a .300-30-100-10 guy who is also one of the dumbest baseball players around, has no heart, can't play a lick of defense in FREAKING LEFT FIELD, and has issues running the bases? How many more times would I have had to see him kill a rally by getting picked off. Freaking moron of a baseball player = Carlos Lee. But he sure can hit. I will give him that.

Edited February 14, 2007 by southsideirish

[CanOfCorn]

That was me. I didn't ask for a trade that turned out successful. I asked for a trade that at the time that it was made, everyone agreed Kenny made a fantastic deal (value wise). The Garcia trade with Seattle was MUCH debated.

 

I think we are much too close to the team to judge objectively. We had a lot of people saying Olivo would be excellent given time. IIRC, Reed was our top OF prospect at the time. Of course, all Sox fans want Kenny to grab as much as he can...we should, that's why we are called fans. But, it doesn't work that way. There are waaaaay too many factors that go into it that we dont' know about.

[vandy125]

Just wanted to point out something that I am seeing in general that I thought was pretty funny.

 

The naysayers of the Garcia trade (including Rosenthal) are saying, "He was in his contract year, and you know what type of numbers guys like that put up."

 

The supporters of the trade are saying, "He only has one year left of a cheap contract, you are getting a one-year rental unless you want to pay a whole heck of a lot."

 

I think that this was a good trade, but my viewpoint is colored by my optimistic view of what Kenny has done in the past.

[witesoxfan]

Isn't Jason Jennings younger, cheaper, and better than Freddy Garcia? I think the answer is yes to all 3 of those questions.

 

He is indeed younger. He is about $3.5-4 mill cheaper. Better is extremely arguable.

 

2006 was the first year since 2002 that Jennings ERA was south of 5, his WHIP has never been below 1.37, his K/BB ratio is less than 2, his command of the strikezone is pretty mediocre, and his K/9 of 6 is middle of the pack at best. He'll probably have a solid year next year, but there is potential for Jason Hirsh - the main part of the deal for Colorado - to be better than Jennings as early as next year.

 

For Freddy, 2006 was the first time since 2003 that his ERA was north of 4, his WHIP hasn't been above the 1.37 WHIP that Jennings put up last year since 2000 (his second year in the league), his K/9, while even worse than Jennings at 5.6, is helped by his K/BB of 2.8. The fact that he also pitched in the AL - which was clearly superior to the NL offensively last year, even considering that the pitcher hits in the NL - only helps his case.

 

I will wait and see if those players the Astros gave up for Jennings turn out to be as good as Floyd and Gio. I really don't think the pitchers will and I really don't want Taveras on the White Sox. I don't think he is very good at all.

 

I'd take Taveras over Podsednik any day of the week and twice on Sundays. He's got no power at all, but he gets on at roughly the same clip Podsednik does while also being able to steal a base. Beyond that, he actually provides range defensively - the type of range you'd expect from someone that is faster than s*** - and he has a strong arm as well. He may not be good, but he'd be a better option for Podsednik, and I know that for a fact. It's almost too bad that the Astros wouldn't give up Pence along with those same three that went to Colorado for Garland, because then Podsednik is traded for anything.

[badatbest]

Did we receive a better deal than what we gave up to acquire Freddy Garcia to begin with? I mean we acquired a Freddy Garcia that was probably at his prime market value for Mike Morse, Miguel Olivo, and Jeremy Reed.. BWAAHAHAHAHA!!! And people hated that deal when we made it saying that we gave up too much. OH NO! We lost Jeremy Reed and Miguel Olivo!! What are we going to do now?!?!?

Now we trade Freddy Garcia at one of the low points of his career when his arm seems to have lost a lot of velocity for whatever reason and we get 2 young pitching prospects in Gavin Floyd and Gio. Now everyone thinks we didn't get enough in return? What did you people expect to get back for pitcher that has pitched a ton of innings the last few years, has lost velocity, and is in the last year of his contract? I don't know what you people expected or wanted in return for this guy. If someone can please tell me that then please dazzle me.

I think I will trust the White Sox and their scouts rather than the people that criticize them on this board. For the most part, the critics are wrong.

 

Isn't Jason Jennings younger, cheaper, and better than Freddy Garcia? I think the answer is yes to all 3 of those questions.

I will wait and see if those players the Astros gave up for Jennings turn out to be as good as Floyd and Gio. I really don't think the pitchers will and I really don't want Taveras on the White Sox. I don't think he is very good at all.

 

How so and in what way? You can say we did not want to sign him for more than just this season, but is that a salary dump? A salary dump to me is when you have a guy with a few more years left with a salary you just don't want to pay any longer. Carlos Lee was a salary dump and a great move at that. That is not the case here. He is only making 9 million this year. That is one hell of a deal for a pitcher of his caliber.We were definitely trying to get young, cheap talent, but isn't that what every GM is looking for? I don't see that as a bad thing at all. What did you expect to get in return for a pitcher that has shown a decline, has lost velocity, and is in the last year of his contract? Please tell me. If you are going to disagree with something why don't you have an opinion on what they should have done or what they should have received in return and why. I honestly don't see it.

 

What have you agreed with in the past that KW has done? Have you agreed or thought much of any of his deals or signings?

What is your track record in agreeing or disagreeing with KW and his scouts? How did that turn out for you? I have a feeling you are more wrong than right when it comes to what moves the Sox should or shouldn't have made.

 

Then what do you expect to get in return for a .300-30-100-10 guy who is also one of the dumbest baseball players around, has no heart, can't play a lick of defense in FREAKING LEFT FIELD, and has issues running the bases? How many more times would I have had to see him kill a rally by getting picked off. Freaking moron of a baseball player = Carlos Lee. But he sure can hit. I will give him that.

 

 

 

Its a much different market for startng pitching now (as opposed to when we acquired Garcia); Most GMs this year had their balls in a vice grip to pick up anything resembling starting pitching. I feel Kenny wasnt ruthless enough. The contracts and trades for pitchers this year were outrageous, i would call what phily gave up, modest.

[badatbest]

Does anyone know why we didnt trade Garcia before the 2006 season while he had 2yrs on his contract? Gaarcia would have had more value and we had McCarthy ready for the 5th spot (and i dont want to hear any "he wasnt ready", because her was a hell of alot more ready than any of the people competing for the 5th spot this year)

[sircaffey]

Does anyone know why we didnt trade Garcia before the 2006 season while he had 2yrs on his contract? Gaarcia would have had more value and we had McCarthy ready for the 5th spot (and i dont want to hear any "he wasnt ready", because her was a hell of alot more ready than any of the people competing for the 5th spot this year)

 

You don't want to hear it, but its the same reason Vazquez was acquired. They felt Brandon wasn't ready.

 

Then what do you expect to get in return for a .300-30-100-10 guy who is also one of the dumbest baseball players around, has no heart, can't play a lick of defense in FREAKING LEFT FIELD, and has issues running the bases? How many more times would I have had to see him kill a rally by getting picked off. Freaking moron of a baseball player = Carlos Lee. But he sure can hit. I will give him that.

 

I'd expect more than someone who also can't play a lick of defense in "FREAKING LEFT FIELD" as well as can't hit.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Feb 14, 2007 -> 01:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You don't want to hear it, but its the same reason Vazquez was acquired. They felt Brandon wasn't ready.

 

 

 

I'd expect more than someone who also can't play a lick of defense in "FREAKING LEFT FIELD" as well as can't hit.

 

 

 

Brandon McCarthy proved he wasn't ready last year unless you buy into the argument that he couldn't adapt well to bullpen duty. That is a crappy argument though.

 

 

You could expect more all you want, but give an example of what that more is and why you would expect it. Carlos Lee is not as good of a baseball player as you may think. He is a good DH perhaps, but that is about it. He is not at all like a spider monkey and he is never jacked up on Mountain Dew. 2 negatives right there on Carlos Lee.

 

 

Can't play a lick of defense, but can run the bases and gave the White Sox a valuable speedy leadoff man that they needed, not another right handed station to station base clogger.

Edited February 14, 2007 by southsideirish