Building, winning don't mix

[mmmmmbeeer]

What about Atlanta? I think they're a better comparison for us than Oakland and Minnie, and KW has stated on numerous occasions that the system Scheurholz runs is his model. They've got a top 30% payroll year in-year out, a great pitching coach (well, until he left), and consistently make trades with both the present and future in mind. They're always competitive, but don't ever seem to get it done. It's tough for me to decide whether I'd prefer to be a fan of a team like the Braves who are competitive every year but never good enough to get over the top, or a fan of the Marlins who mix in a championship with a whole bunch of ass seasons.

 

One difference between KW and Scheurholz is the latter seems to prefer to let free agents play out their contracts and let them walk, whereas KW tends to prefer trading them before their walk year.

 

Because they were in the NL East all those years. That division sucked complete ass for the majority of the seasons the braves took the crown. Also, the Braves had a ton of homegrown talent, something which we surely lack.

 

I'm not saying it can't be done or hasn't been done before. What I am saying is that this is an extremely ballsy move. I would have felt much better about KW's idea to stay competitive if he were able to upgrade LF, SS, or CF while still sacrificing the pitching in trades. Those positions were already horrible last season and now we've got Uribe with legal troubles and Pods hurt. So what was a glaring weakness last season has now gotten progressively worse. He didn't use his resources to upgrade any of those positions and I think it's a big mistake. I have no doubt in my mind that this is a weaker squad than we started 2006 with. Is it still a 90+ win team, I think it can be. But last year's team should have won 100 games with all the talent they had.

[spiderman]

Are the White Sox a better team going into spring training than they were last season ?

 

I say no, but that doesn't mean they can't be right there, and win the division. The White Sox have Gavin Floyd as the 5th starter, and that spot could be another revolving door. The rest of the rotation can be good, but it enters the season with question marks, and something to prove. The Bullpen can be great, but it enters the season as an unknown as well. There are a lot of great arms in there, but not a lot of experience in the majors, but the back end of the bullpen should be strong.

 

Offensively is where my biggest concern is on the team. Kenny did absolutely nothing to improve an offense that became HR or nothing. We don't have a leadoff hitter, and we still don't have a LF, CF, or SS entering the season who we can expect much from offensively.

 

It's not all gloom though - let me repeat. The Bullpen CAN be great, the starters are veterans, and have something to prove this season. Offensively, we have good players, but I question their ability to manufacture runs.

 

I think the season is going to be fun and we will be right there in the stretch run, but this is a tough division so it's tough to predict who's going to win as injuries, mid-season acquistions, etc. will factor in as well.

[witesoxfan]

We have been a "HR or Nothing" team for the last 7 years. Get used to it. If you don't like it, I would sugguest finding a new team, because it seems thats the way the Sox like to be built.

 

Another interesting thing about this decade is that the Sox have hit 200+ homers every year of it. The last time they didn't was 1999 when they hit a whopping 162.

[RME JICO]

We have been a "HR or Nothing" team for the last 7 years. Get used to it. If you don't like it, I would sugguest finding a new team, because it seems thats the way the Sox like to be built.

Playing in the Cell makes being a HR or Nothing team a little easier.

[vandy125]

I see a whole lot of this in the thread... Seriously, I would love to see someone actually give some suggestions as to what could have been done better. Upgrade CF. Ok, give a suggestion, and I hope it is not the almighty Rowand. Upgrade LF. Maybe we should have gotten Carlos Lee. Wasn't he available? Upgrade SS. Let's just throw away all our talent and get someone like Miguel Tejada.

 

At least throw something out there that we can consider. I don't even see those pathetic suggestions I listed.

[spiderman]

We have been a "HR or Nothing" team for the last 7 years. Get used to it. If you don't like it, I would sugguest finding a new team, because it seems thats the way the Sox like to be built.

 

I like when the White Sox hit HR's, hopefully they hit lots of them, but they need to be able to manufacture runs as well.

[Vance Law]

False, Buehrle was spectacular in the first half of the '06 season. He had an All-Star first half and was recognized for it.

 

False, 9 - 6 with a 4.02 ERA is not spectacular. And it very likely would not have gotten him on the All-Star team if his coach wasn't picking the players.

 

and I consider Rodgers to be a gigantic moron or just a big Cubs fan (same thing)

 

 

This is precisely why I was going to give KW a D+ for this postseason in that "if we're set" thread.

 

I can't think of a single team outside of Oakland and Minnesota that has successfully competed every year while always building for the future.

 

Atlanta

Yankees (but they don't really count as a team)

[southsideirish71]

I like when the White Sox hit HR's, hopefully they hit lots of them, but they need to be able to manufacture runs as well.

 

I like when they dont "try" to hit home runs. When a home run comes because of working a count, getting a pitch to swing at, or when a line drive bomb flies out its okay. When the team goes up, and tries to lift and pull every single pitch no matter where its thrown because they need to make sportscenter, or when a pitcher consistantly throws low and away, and they still try and lift and pull especially in a tie game late, when you have less than 2 outs and a man in scoring position when a single will win it, and not the dramatic homer. Thats when our approach pisses me off.

 

I would like to see our hitters work the count more this year, and take whats given to them. If you have a pitcher throwing low and away the entire game, its okay to hit it up the middle and to right. The minute they start doing that, they will see more pitches inside, and then they can turn and burn on those.

Edited February 15, 2007 by southsideirish71

[Kalapse]

I like when they dont "try" to hit home runs. When a home run comes because of working a count, getting a pitch to swing at, or when a line drive bomb flies out its okay. When the team goes up, and tries to lift and pull every single pitch no matter where its thrown because they need to make sportscenter, or when a pitcher consistantly throws low and away, and they still try and lift and pull especially in a tie game late, when you have less than 2 outs and a man in scoring position when a single will win it, and not the dramatic homer. Thats when our approach pisses me off.

 

I would like to see our hitters work the count more this year, and take whats given to them. If you have a pitcher throwing low and away the entire game, its okay to hit it up the middle and to right. The minute they start doing that, they will see more pitches inside, and then they can turn and burn on those.

It feels like August all over again reading this post.

[witesoxfan]

False, 9 - 6 with a 4.02 ERA is not spectacular. And it very likely would not have gotten him on the All-Star team if his coach wasn't picking the players.

 

Shoota's exactly right on this one, Buehrle was All-Star caliber in the first half. He was somewhat inconsistent, but you are pointing out his ERA without making note of his Cubs start where he had an ERA of 18.00. Should one start be counted against a pitcher simply because it reflects greatly upon his overall numbers? I don't feel as though that should be the case, but perhaps I'm just in the minority (though I completely doubt I am).

 

Going into his game against the Cubs, his ERA was 3.22. All Star worthy or no?

[mmmmmbeeer]

I see a whole lot of this in the thread... Seriously, I would love to see someone actually give some suggestions as to what could have been done better. Upgrade CF. Ok, give a suggestion, and I hope it is not the almighty Rowand. Upgrade LF. Maybe we should have gotten Carlos Lee. Wasn't he available? Upgrade SS. Let's just throw away all our talent and get someone like Miguel Tejada.

 

At least throw something out there that we can consider. I don't even see those pathetic suggestions I listed.

 

The FA market was crap this season, not to mention expensive. That leaves upgrades via trade, something that none of us have any knowledge to speak to. I will say this, if a GM identifies a weakness on his team and wants it filled, he can get it done. It's just a matter of whether said GM feels the need is pressing enough to warrant overpayment. IMO, KW misjudged our 8-9-1 in the lineup and should have overpaid for a strong contributor, preferably a leadoff type who could play in the OF. He didn't even need to get a superstar, just a contact hitter who can hit .300-ish with decent D to stick in that 8-9-or 1 slot.

 

I mean we saw it last season, what the hell is the point of having a 3-4-5 of Thome, Kong, and Dye if you've got crap for production out of 8-9-1-sometimes 2 hitters?

[Vance Law]

Shoota's exactly right on this one, Buehrle was All-Star caliber in the first half. He was somewhat inconsistent, but you are pointing out his ERA without making note of his Cubs start where he had an ERA of 18.00. Should one start be counted against a pitcher simply because it reflects greatly upon his overall numbers? I don't feel as though that should be the case, but perhaps I'm just in the minority (though I completely doubt I am).

 

Going into his game against the Cubs, his ERA was 3.22. All Star worthy or no?

 

I agree, he was great up to that point 2 weeks before the All-Star break, so I suppose it all depends on when Ozzie picked his players. He lost his next 6 decisions (2 before the break) and at the break, there were 11 pitchers with as many wins as Buehrle and a better ERA.

[gosox41]

Then who? Find someone at SS and CF that KW could have acquired for a reasonable price while also maintaining some type of core that will allow the team to remain competitive beyond 2007.

 

(and please don't say Aaron Rowand, because he's not an upgrade over Brian Anderson)

 

 

I was just listing areas that needed improvement and statistically (at least offensively) stood out to be holes. Uribe and his .260 OBP is not good. Anderson wasn't good last year with the bat.

 

Being that I don't have as much time to follow baseball and the minors as closely as KW (or for that matter as closely as I used to) nor do I have a bunch of scouts to report to me I can't name names. Off the top of my head, why not Garcia for Humberto Sanchez and Melky Cabrera (to play LF)

 

But I'm pretty sure when you trade 2 starting pitchers, one a young cheap up and comer with some decent potential, and one a big game pitcher who finished strong that KW could have addressed one of these holes instead of acquiring all the pitchers he did. There are probably some young minor league stud OF prospects something the Sox seem to lack.

 

Since I'm not privy to trade talk, I don't know what was being offered for Garcia. I trust that KW made the best baseball deal he could but whose to say he couldn't have traded Garcia to another team for a good OFer and a Gavin Floyd type prospect.

 

That's where I tie this in to how I feel about the Garcia trade. I hope Gavin is more then a #5 starter in 2007 who psots a 5+ ERA and averages his 5 innings. I have no choice to trust the scouting of Floyd and the magic of Cooper because Floyd is in a Sox uni.

 

I agree a lot more with the McCarthy trade then the Garcia trade, mainly due to Floyd.

 

I hope I'm wrong and Floyd lives up to the hype taht made him a first round pick.

 

 

 

Bob

[YASNY]

The FA market was crap this season, not to mention expensive. That leaves upgrades via trade, something that none of us have any knowledge to speak to. I will say this, if a GM identifies a weakness on his team and wants it filled, he can get it done. It's just a matter of whether said GM feels the need is pressing enough to warrant overpayment. IMO, KW misjudged our 8-9-1 in the lineup and should have overpaid for a strong contributor, preferably a leadoff type who could play in the OF. He didn't even need to get a superstar, just a contact hitter who can hit .300-ish with decent D to stick in that 8-9-or 1 slot.

 

I mean we saw it last season, what the hell is the point of having a 3-4-5 of Thome, Kong, and Dye if you've got crap for production out of 8-9-1-sometimes 2 hitters?

 

Who would this "strong contributor, preferably a leadoff type who could play in the OF" be? Don't throw Baldelli or Crawford at me as it was obvious those options were explored. There is a limit as to how much a team can afford to "overpay" and as of yet, no one has met the DRays price for either of those guys, so I have to conclude that they were not a reasonable option. Who do you suggest the Sox should have acquired that meet your criteria?

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Vance Law @ Feb 14, 2007 -> 09:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

False, 9 - 6 with a 4.02 ERA is not spectacular. And it very likely would not have gotten him on the All-Star team if his coach wasn't picking the players.

That's bulls***.

 

The day the rosters were already set, Buehrle got CRUSHED by the Cubs. He was 9-5 with a low 3 something ERA when Guillen picked him for the team.

[mmmmmbeeer]

Who would this "strong contributor, preferably a leadoff type who could play in the OF" be? Don't throw Baldelli or Crawford at me as it was obvious those options were explored. There is a limit as to how much a team can afford to "overpay" and as of yet, no one has met the DRays price for either of those guys, so I have to conclude that they were not a reasonable option. Who do you suggest the Sox should have acquired that meet your criteria?

 

 

Again, I'm not a GM nor am I privvy to insider info concerning who's available and who isn't. I'm not going to go through every team's roster to pick players for you. I'll tell you what, make a list of OF's better than Pods, Erstad, and Anderson (I know, a tall task) and throw a dart at it. That's who we should have gone after.

[YASNY]

Again, I'm not a GM nor am I privvy to insider info concerning who's available and who isn't. I'm not going to go through every team's roster to pick players for you. I'll tell you what, make a list of OF's better than Pods, Erstad, and Anderson (I know, a tall task) and throw a dart at it. That's who we should have gone after.

 

That's a cop out. I'm just asking for a reasonable alternative.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Vance Law @ Feb 14, 2007 -> 10:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree, he was great up to that point 2 weeks before the All-Star break, so I suppose it all depends on when Ozzie picked his players. He lost his next 6 decisions (2 before the break) and at the break, there were 11 pitchers with as many wins as Buehrle and a better ERA.

....and at the time the selections were made, only 5 other had an ERA better than's Buehrle's 3.22.

 

Liriano, Lackey, Halladay, Santana and Verlander.

 

Guys with higher first half ERA's who made the team: Redman (5.27,) Contreras (3.38,) Zito (3.29,) Rogers (3.85) and Kazmir (3.27.)

[witesoxfan]

I was just listing areas that needed improvement and statistically (at least offensively) stood out to be holes. Uribe and his .260 OBP is not good. Anderson wasn't good last year with the bat.

 

Being that I don't have as much time to follow baseball and the minors as closely as KW (or for that matter as closely as I used to) nor do I have a bunch of scouts to report to me I can't name names. Off the top of my head, why not Garcia for Humberto Sanchez and Melky Cabrera (to play LF)

 

But I'm pretty sure when you trade 2 starting pitchers, one a young cheap up and comer with some decent potential, and one a big game pitcher who finished strong that KW could have addressed one of these holes instead of acquiring all the pitchers he did. There are probably some young minor league stud OF prospects something the Sox seem to lack.

 

Since I'm not privy to trade talk, I don't know what was being offered for Garcia. I trust that KW made the best baseball deal he could but whose to say he couldn't have traded Garcia to another team for a good OFer and a Gavin Floyd type prospect.

 

That's where I tie this in to how I feel about the Garcia trade. I hope Gavin is more then a #5 starter in 2007 who psots a 5+ ERA and averages his 5 innings. I have no choice to trust the scouting of Floyd and the magic of Cooper because Floyd is in a Sox uni.

 

I agree a lot more with the McCarthy trade then the Garcia trade, mainly due to Floyd.

 

I hope I'm wrong and Floyd lives up to the hype taht made him a first round pick.

Bob

 

Uribe had about the 11th best SLG% out of all MLB shortstops, and he had the 12th most XBH's. Using both OBP, SLG, and defense, I figure Uribe is probably about the 15th best SS in the league - meaning exactly in the middle - with the potential there to be a top 10 SS in the league next year. It's almost guaranteed that he can't put up a worse year, even with his offseason troubles. I'd probably put him at putting a .725-.750 OPS next year with the capabilities to go up to .800. I find that quite realistic, and so long as the glove shows up too, those will be great numbers.

 

Anderson wasn't good last year overall, but he was a rookie (worst.excuse.evar...I'm using it anyways), and he was pretty respectable beyond June 11th (something to the tune of around .280/.330/.400 - Kalapse/someone else will have the exact numbers in a flash because he/they is/are the man, and I'm too lazy to look it up), but Ozzie for whatever reason refused to give him full-playing time and insisted on platooning Mackowiak and Anderson, killing the defense in CF during the times Mackowiak was out there. Anywaysm, so long as he doesn't party like a mad mofo, and he works his ass off, he should have a respectable year at the plate, and he'll be good in the field.

 

Regarding the Garcia trade - you mentioned that you don't have the time to follow it enough, so I'll just let you know now that the Yankees reportedly turned down Mark Buehrle for Humberto Sanchez, so they are pretty high on him. You weren't going to get Melky along with him for Freddy, especially with a free agent class as deep in mediocre starting pitching as this year was, and seeing as how the Yankees essentially intend to build a World Series winner with the most mediocre starting staff ever, they were pretty much in heaven.

 

I've explained that I don't really feel that CF or SS were holes, and that LF was, so I'm just kinda pissed about that. There were several options available to upgrade LF if only Ozzie didn't absolutely have to, have to, have to have a leadoff hitter than can run fast. If that was the case I would have almost been happier with KW throwing globs and globs of money at Juan Pierre (if only I were serious would it be funny). Had he brought in someone like Trot Nixon or David Dellucci to have in LF, and then either used Perez or Ozuna out there with them, or gone out and gotten like Craig Wilson, Jose Cruz Jr, or Preston Wilson, and then set up such a platoon in LF with Iguchi leading off, I would have been in heaven as a fan. As it is, I'm not nearly as excited, but I have my hopes. I just have to hope Erstad leads off most of the year, because if he does, he's atleast pretty much guaranteed to put up a .333 OBP, and it should be consistently. If he does so, it'll be better than his sub .300 OBP that he put up in the second half last year (which is beyond unacceptable). All I can do is hope.

 

That's a cop out. I'm just asking for a reasonable alternative.

 

Brady Clark wouldn't be bad

[Kalapse]

Brady Clark wouldn't be bad

He's going to be dealt somewhere this year and he will be a difference maker, he'd look awful good starting in LF as well as backing up Anderson in center.

[witesoxfan]

He's going to be dealt somewhere this year and he will be a difference maker, he'd look awful good starting in LF as well as backing up Anderson in center.

 

I'm really not sure you can rule the White Sox out of potentially acquiring him either. KW has proven that if he feels the team has a need in Spring Training, and there's a player who may fit the need, he will go out and acquire that player.

 

However, the Brewers may want something of significant value, and KW hasn't proven that he's willing to give that up. Matt Ginter, Jeff Bajenaru, and Joe Borchard are scrap heap pieces at best.

 

actually, upon thinking about it again, he may be had for cheap. He was pretty much s***ty last year, and the Brewers have like 39 outfielders that are ready to be called up to the majors. It could be a perfect buy low situation for the White Sox, and that would allow the Sox to dump Pods off somewhere to a team willing to give him a shot (which could be a perfect buy low situation for said team).

Edited February 15, 2007 by witesoxfan

[mmmmmbeeer]

That's a cop out. I'm just asking for a reasonable alternative.

 

 

Corey Patterson

Victorino

Freel

Clark

Davanon

Delucci

Reed Johnson

Markakis

 

 

and these are just some of the non-superstar types that would be a step up from Pods/Anderson/Erstad. Sure some of them are debatable, but it really wouldn't take much to improve on what we had last season.

[southsider2k5]

You know I hate when good, intelligent writers spit out crap like this. He makes a hypothesis that it doesn't work when teams try to build through this manner, yet doesn't provide a single example of it, good or bad. Instead he concentrates on ripping the players, instead of reenforcing what his whole article was about. I like the fact that it took our posters to come up with at least 3 solid examples that refute the basis for this write up.

[Controlled Chaos]

Good to see some fire and emotion back on the board, regardless of which side you're on. That could only mean one thing.....spring is here....Pitchers and catchers....2 days.

 

[Colorado Sox Fan]

So say we go for it all this year and still don't end up with a WS. Next year would you commit to your statement and be willing for the team to not be competitive, and sign mediocre pitching for top dollar?

I want to go for it all this year, next year and every year. Maybe everything will work out great and KW will be looked at as a genius again. My main comment is I can't get excited about this team. We've lost quality starting pitching and will again rely on scoring a lot of runs. Maybe the bullpens better and this will compensate...I'm still not sold on the bullpen, either. But, hey, I was pumped about last season after KW's moves and the team faded, maybe this year they'll surprise me. Hope so...........

 

I like when they dont "try" to hit home runs. When a home run comes because of working a count, getting a pitch to swing at, or when a line drive bomb flies out its okay. When the team goes up, and tries to lift and pull every single pitch no matter where its thrown because they need to make sportscenter, or when a pitcher consistantly throws low and away, and they still try and lift and pull especially in a tie game late, when you have less than 2 outs and a man in scoring position when a single will win it, and not the dramatic homer. Thats when our approach pisses me off.

 

 

Bingo!!!!