Chief Illiniwek.....HE GONE!!!

[Texsox]

Would you be offended by an all black college using a mascot where a black person painted their face white and danced very stiff and rigid during half time?

 

That would crack me up.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Can someone please explain to me how Chief Illiniwek is offensive to an extinct tribe of Native Americans?

 

If he went out hammered and dealt blackjack at center court, wouldn't that be more stereotypical and offensive?

 

Illinois is not the Redskins, Indians, Savages, Braves. They are the Illini, the same as the Seminoles, and the like.

 

Hell, just to prove a point, the Irish Illini in favor of the Chief should start b****ing about Fighting Irish. Maybe get that changed, I'm not of Irish decent, but if White Americans can b**** and pull weight in how offensive the Chief is to Native Americans, shouldn't I, a non-Irish American be able to say how offensive that damn Leprechaun is? Or the fact that the Irish are portrayed as green wearing, fighting drunks?

 

Political Correctness to the extreme like this is ruining America.

Um, the outfit isn't authentic. The dance isn't authentic. The person portraying the Chief isn't even authentic.

 

So it is all the honesty and genuine respect of complete sham imitation.

 

The difference between the Seminoles and the Illini is that FSU pays the Seminoles and the Seminoles agree with the school's usage of the mascot.

 

All ethnic school mascots should be changed. There's bound to be more creativity and fun in these institutions of higher learning to create some hilarious and forebodingly awesome mascots. It isn't a PC vs un-PC battle. It is a racist and insensitive symbol from yesteryear that has long outgrown its usefulness and effectiveness as an entity bringing the student body together in pride and school spirit.

[CanOfCorn]

Give it 5 years, the incoming students wont give a crap.

 

Pardon me if I'm saddened by this. The Chief stirred my emotions from the first time I saw him in person in 1984. I never thought it was anything but respectful. Of course, I am a white jewish kid from Skokie.

 

To me, there's a very fine line. Chief Wahoo, Redskins, Indians...bad. Why, because those ARE caricatures.

 

If there wasn't ever a Chief, the Illini name would be able to stand, as the NCAA has allowed. BUT, there is nothing but reverence for the Chief. No baby kissing. No mugging for the camera. No speaking when dressed as the Chief.

 

I guess my point is...if an institution is doing it's best to try to make it as reverential as possible, why couldn't the remaining tribes try to find a middle ground. Maybe, in exchange for allowing it to continue...the Chief loses the headdress, has to spend up to a year on the reservation with the tribe, learning customs, authentic dances, etc. In return, the University supplies a certain amount of scholarships, maybe does some research on issues that impact Native Americans, possibly even opening some sort of research facility on the res to supply jobs?

[RockRaines]

Pardon me if I'm saddened by this. The Chief stirred my emotions from the first time I saw him in person in 1984. I never thought it was anything but respectful. Of course, I am a white jewish kid from Skokie.

 

To me, there's a very fine line. Chief Wahoo, Redskins, Indians...bad. Why, because those ARE caricatures.

 

If there wasn't ever a Chief, the Illini name would be able to stand, as the NCAA has allowed. BUT, there is nothing but reverence for the Chief. No baby kissing. No mugging for the camera. No speaking when dressed as the Chief.

Sorry man, but thats the reality. In the next few years the final students who remember the Chief will slowly graduate (some slower than others) and a new crop of high school kids will come in and develop their own memories and customs. Within the years after that, there wont be a tradition called the Chief, there will be something else taking its place. I have been through a name change of a University and just like that, every memory of it was erased and replaced by new memories.

[longshot7]

Pardon me if I'm saddened by this. The Chief stirred my emotions from the first time I saw him in person in 1984. I never thought it was anything but respectful. Of course, I am a white jewish kid from Skokie.

 

To me, there's a very fine line. Chief Wahoo, Redskins, Indians...bad. Why, because those ARE caricatures.

 

If there wasn't ever a Chief, the Illini name would be able to stand, as the NCAA has allowed. BUT, there is nothing but reverence for the Chief. No baby kissing. No mugging for the camera. No speaking when dressed as the Chief.

 

I guess my point is...if an institution is doing it's best to try to make it as reverential as possible, why couldn't the remaining tribes try to find a middle ground. Maybe, in exchange for allowing it to continue...the Chief loses the headdress, has to spend up to a year on the reservation with the tribe, learning customs, authentic dances, etc. In return, the University supplies a certain amount of scholarships, maybe does some research on issues that impact Native Americans, possibly even opening some sort of research facility on the res to supply jobs?

 

It's still a caricature. A white student (even an actor) cannot portray a Indian effectively enough for it not to be. It works the same way in films and tv - whites do not portray characters of other races because they cannot do it without trivializing and ridiculing them.

[StrangeSox]

Of course you do. Luckily there are people who actually are of the race in question and are actually offended by a white kid performing an incredibly inaccurate, inappropriate, and racist halftime show.

 

HE GONE

 

 

And there are other native americans that aren't.

 

And most of the people who b**** and moan about this are a bunch of white suburbanites.

[RockRaines]

And there are other native americans that aren't.

 

And most of the people who b**** and moan about this are a bunch of white suburbanites.

Actually the people b****ing are the only descendants of the Illini tribe, but yeah, you are right.

[NorthSideSox72]

Pardon me if I'm saddened by this. The Chief stirred my emotions from the first time I saw him in person in 1984. I never thought it was anything but respectful. Of course, I am a white jewish kid from Skokie.

 

To me, there's a very fine line. Chief Wahoo, Redskins, Indians...bad. Why, because those ARE caricatures.

 

If there wasn't ever a Chief, the Illini name would be able to stand, as the NCAA has allowed. BUT, there is nothing but reverence for the Chief. No baby kissing. No mugging for the camera. No speaking when dressed as the Chief.

 

I guess my point is...if an institution is doing it's best to try to make it as reverential as possible, why couldn't the remaining tribes try to find a middle ground. Maybe, in exchange for allowing it to continue...the Chief loses the headdress, has to spend up to a year on the reservation with the tribe, learning customs, authentic dances, etc. In return, the University supplies a certain amount of scholarships, maybe does some research on issues that impact Native Americans, possibly even opening some sort of research facility on the res to supply jobs?

Chief Illiniwek is very much a caricature. The tribe's history is in no way indicative of that routine, that outfit or anything else. Its offensive.

 

But you do present an interesting thought - giving them the option of modifying it to be less offensive. I wonder if that was done.

 

I am glad, though, that the Illini name and some other things that are not offensive were left alone. Its nice to see this didn't turn into a PC crusade against all that isn't plastic and boring.

[IlliniKrush]

Sorry man, but thats the reality. In the next few years the final students who remember the Chief will slowly graduate (some slower than others) and a new crop of high school kids will come in and develop their own memories and customs. Within the years after that, there wont be a tradition called the Chief, there will be something else taking its place. I have been through a name change of a University and just like that, every memory of it was erased and replaced by new memories.

I don't see this happening exactly as you see it. Will the bitterness die down? Sure. But for the thousands upon thousands of graduates who had fond memories of the Chief, they will continue to remember, and it will still be talked about.

 

I don't see another 'mascot' or anything else completely taking its place. The memories won't go anywhere, and people will hold onto their Chief apparel forever.

[RockRaines]

I don't see this happening exactly as you see it. Will the bitterness die down? Sure. But for the thousands upon thousands of graduates who had fond memories of the Chief, they will continue to remember, and it will still be talked about.

 

I don't see another 'mascot' or anything else completely taking its place. The memories won't go anywhere, and people will hold onto their Chief apparel forever.

Im just telling you from first hand experience. Will a freshman 3 years from now even know that there was a chief that danced at halftime or whenever? How about 10 years? It will fade away, you will see.

[IlliniKrush]

Im just telling you from first hand experience. Will a freshman 3 years from now even know that there was a chief that danced at halftime or whenever? How about 10 years? It will fade away, you will see.

I'd say they will. It will fade, but I wouldn't call your first hand experience a direct comparison to what will happen at U of I. I just think the spirit of the Chief will live on with people, especially since the name fighting illini didn't change.

[Pauly8509CWS]

Would you be offended by an all black college using a mascot where a black person painted their face white and danced very stiff and rigid during half time?

 

Probably not at all. But the same people b****ing about the Chief would. The majority of those "offended" by the Chief are white people.

 

Again, the white race, is still around, the Illini Tribe is no longer, so who's offended by this? Go after the Redskins, the Cleveland Indians, the Spokane Chiefs, the Atlanta Braves, Warriors, Squaws, etc.

 

For those of you who seem to be hardheaded on this issue, here are a few facts that I'd like to get opinions on...

 

In the past two years, the only scientific opinion polls on the subject have concluded that the majority of Native Americans are not opposed to the use of Indian nicknames—at the high school or college level, or in professional sports. In 2002, a Peter Harris Research Group poll showed that 81% of Native Americans support the use of Indian nicknames in high school and college sports, and 83% of Native Americans support the use of Indian mascots and symbols in professional sports. The accompanying commentary concluded that the “poll suggests that although Native American activists are virtually united in opposition to the use of Indian nicknames and mascots, the Native American population sees the issue far differently.”

 

 

 

In September 2004, the University of Pennsylvania’s National Annenberg Election Survey reported the results of a year-long poll which showed that the vast majority of American Indians say that calling Washington’s professional football team the “Redskins” does not bother them (90% of Indians took that position, while 9% said they found the name “offensive”)

 

Following a 20-month investigation, the decision of the U.S. Department of Education Office of Civil Rights (11/30/95) concluded that there was insufficient evidence to show that a racially hostile environment existed at the University.

 

 

Flame on boys.

[RockRaines]

Probably not at all. But the same people b****ing about the Chief would. The majority of those "offended" by the Chief are white people.

 

Again, the white race, is still around, the Illini Tribe is no longer, so who's offended by this? Go after the Redskins, the Cleveland Indians, the Spokane Chiefs, the Atlanta Braves, Warriors, Squaws, etc.

 

For those of you who seem to be hardheaded on this issue, here are a few facts that I'd like to get opinions on...

 

In the past two years, the only scientific opinion polls on the subject have concluded that the majority of Native Americans are not opposed to the use of Indian nicknames—at the high school or college level, or in professional sports. In 2002, a Peter Harris Research Group poll showed that 81% of Native Americans support the use of Indian nicknames in high school and college sports, and 83% of Native Americans support the use of Indian mascots and symbols in professional sports. The accompanying commentary concluded that the “poll suggests that although Native American activists are virtually united in opposition to the use of Indian nicknames and mascots, the Native American population sees the issue far differently.”

In September 2004, the University of Pennsylvania’s National Annenberg Election Survey reported the results of a year-long poll which showed that the vast majority of American Indians say that calling Washington’s professional football team the “Redskins” does not bother them (90% of Indians took that position, while 9% said they found the name “offensive”)

 

Following a 20-month investigation, the decision of the U.S. Department of Education Office of Civil Rights (11/30/95) concluded that there was insufficient evidence to show that a racially hostile environment existed at the University.

Flame on boys.

Are you just making stuff up?

 

Position of the Peoria Tribe of Indians of Oklahoma

 

The Peoria Tribe of Indians of Oklahoma are the closest living descendants of the Illiniwek Confederacy, having been relocated to Oklahoma in the 19th century. The position of the tribal leadership has evolved over the years. In a television interview with WICD-TV in 1995, Don Giles, then Chief of the Peoria Tribe, said, "To say that we are anything but proud to have these portrayals would be completely wrong. We are proud. We're proud that the University of Illinois, the flagship university of the state, a seat of learning, is drawing on that background of our having been there. And what more honor could they pay us?" Supporting Chief Giles was another tribal elder, Ron Froman, who stated that the protesters "don't speak for all Native Americans, and certainly not us."[2]

 

Ron Froman was later elected Chief, by which time his views on the Chief Illiniwek symbol changed. His views changed following meetings with American Indian students attending the University. In April 2000, the tribal council, with Chief Froman's support, passed by the margin of 3 to 2 a resolution requesting "the leadership of the University of Illinois to recognize the demeaning nature of the characterization of Chief Illiniwek, and cease use of this mascots [sic]". [12] Froman stated "I don't know what the origination was, or what the reason was for the university to create Chief Illiniwek. I don't think it was to honor us, because, hell, they ran our (butts) out of Illinois."[8] This puts Chief Illiniwek in a position different from that of the mascots of other schools such as Florida State University, whose Native American mascots are not opposed by the leadership of the corresponding tribes. In 2005, a new Chief, John P. Froman, when asked his position by the NCAA, indicated that "the Chief was not representative of our tribe and culture, mainly because the costume is Sioux"[9] In 2006, in response to a widely published column by journalist George Will in support of the symbol's use, he wrote a letter reiterating the Peoria Tribe's opposition to the symbol and decrying that the "University of Illinois has ignored the tribe’s request for nearly five years." [10]

 

These people are NOT white people, they are the only descendants of the Illini tribe, which are the most important opinion in the matter.

 

Among the national Native American organizations which called for the retirement of the symbol were the National Congress of American Indians and the National Indian Education Association. At the UIUC campus, the Native American House, the American Indian Studies program, and the Native American student organizations all called for its retirement.

 

This issue has NOTHING to do with the nickname, nothing at all. The professional sports listed by you have no bearing on this issue at all. The issue is the mascot and his dance, that is it.

[RockRaines]

This is what they are removing for good reason. If you can give me something comparable other than naming professional sports, then you have an argument.

Edited February 21, 2007 by RockRaines

[thedoctor]

But you do present an interesting thought - giving them the option of modifying it to be less offensive. I wonder if that was done.

 

the unfortunate sidenote in this whole thing is that both sides were utterly unwilling to compromise on any level.

[longshot7]

What did Blacks say while the majority of vaudeville performers (Al Jolson, anyone?) performed in blackface, or shows like Amos n Andy with racist stereotypes were on radio and laer television? Nothing. In some cases, I'll bet they even defended it.

 

The racism is institutionalized so it isn't as noticeable to either the majority or the minority. Have you ever heard the phrase "That's mighty white of you." Same thing - not meant as racist when used today, but its racist in origin and therefore wrong. Same thing as calling someone "a girl", a "pussy", or intimating that something dumb "is gay." That's sexist and heterosexist, and not right.

 

You're either on the right side of history or the wrong side, and the Chief is clearly on the wrong side. Good riddance.

[BigSqwert]

I really don't understand why people are losing sleep over a mascot going away. In the grand scheme of things who cares? Although I'm not a fan of any Illini team I still wouldn't care if any of my favorite team's mascot or logo needed to change for whatever reasons. There are more important things in life to concentrate your energy on.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(BigSqwert @ Feb 21, 2007 -> 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I really don't understand why people are losing sleep over a mascot going away. In the grand scheme of things who cares? Although I'm not a fan of any Illini team I still wouldn't care if any of my favorite team's mascot or logo needed to change for whatever reasons. There are more important things in life to concentrate your energy on.

The same could be said for the portestors, no? It's just a mascot, who cares? There are more important things in life.

 

From what I recall in school, the people who had a problem with it (true descendants of the Illiniwek Trib, and ultra-libs trying to change the world) didn't like how the Chief character was inaccurately representing the Illiniwek tribe. Everything from the clothing, the dancing and the fact a non-descendant was playing the character.

 

Like I mentioned before, why can't they drop "Illiniwek" from the Chief name, and claim he is not part of the Illiniwek tribe, but he represents the "Fighting spirit of Illinois?" If you think that last part sounds silly, it's actually the reason why the school doesn't have to change their name. Which Tribe does Chief Wahoo belong to?

Edited February 21, 2007 by santo=dorf

[CanOfCorn]

This is what they are removing for good reason. If you can give me something comparable other than naming professional sports, then you have an argument.

 

I understand that the Seminole or Ute tribe isn't against it, but if one is wrong, why aren't they all wrong?

 

Would you say that those are both caricatures, too?

[RockRaines]

I understand that the Seminole or Ute tribe isn't against it, but if one is wrong, why aren't they all wrong?

 

Would you say that those are both caricatures, too?

Nope they arent the same. Watch the video, that is supposedly a representative of the illni tribe. it bears the same name and under no circumstances is anything about it remotely from the actual tribe or descendants. FSU asked the Seminole tribe BEFORE it even created their Chief if it was ok, and made them an active participant. They also had input to what the Chief was allowed to do on the field (which is why he isnt doing some boy scout dance). They are all for it, the Peoria tribe is not.

 

There were over 40 schools that were told their mascot or team names were wrong. Most of them have abandoned it all together and some were able to keep it due to the support of the local tribe. Some schools were still forced to abandon their mascot even with the support of the tribe (like my alma mater). The difference here is not the imagery behind their school mascot, its the fake religious dance that it performs at halftime wearing a rival tribe's gear preforming a dance derived from the boy scouts. Im sure if U of I allowed the Peoria tribe some input or compromised with them, that maybe it could have been saved in some sense, but the legal battle was lost before it began, which is why tonight he dances his last dance.

[danman31]

I really don't understand why people are losing sleep over a mascot going away. In the grand scheme of things who cares? Although I'm not a fan of any Illini team I still wouldn't care if any of my favorite team's mascot or logo needed to change for whatever reasons. There are more important things in life to concentrate your energy on.

I agree.

 

Ok so what the heck is with all the people crying during halftime of the U of I game? I watched the halftime show and I guess most of you don't get ESPNU, but they showed several fans (including a 6 or 7 year old girl somehow) crying. I don't want to sound like an ass because I think it's harsh to have to get rid of him despite the fact that he just freestyles and I could do that dance. That said, who cries over a mascot? Especially considering a majority of the students didn't passionately root for Illinois until they got there.

[Buehrle>Wood]

http://mfile.akamai.com/8108/wmv/cstv.down...02feb/chief.asx

 

 

 

The amount of pictures going off is nuts. It's like the final at bat of the World Series or something.

 

It's clear people care about this situation. And it looks like the chief really is more than a mascot.

[Soxfest]

It's a sad day no more Chief!

[Texsox]

What would be a whole lot better in this situation is if people actually put some time and resources into helping Native Americans. The poverty rate, health profiles, education levels, etc. are abysmal on the reservations. In the end, this doesn't actually do anything for them.

[whitesoxfan101]

Now since I never have or will go to U of I, I won't fully understand. But having been to over a dozen football and basketball games in Chambana, having family that went to school down there, and knowing people now down there....I never have or will get the Chief thing. All those people crying and such tonight....get over it and remember it's just a student in a costume dancing around. Cry over what the Indian race in this nation has become. I'm glad the Chief sillyness is over, although I would hope "fighting illini" doesn't go away. If they get rid of that, might as well change the name of the state.