Williams on Sox FA

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(vandy125 @ Feb 18, 2007 -> 12:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Am I the only one who is reading this as KW just being a good boss? Maybe building up the view with his players that he is loking out for them? He is not giving them the BS view that they should sign without even considering the FA market with how high it is right now.

 

I would be insulted if someone kept pushing me to sign without exploring my enormous options that would be available. I would imagine that if the offers on the market are similar to what the Sox are offering, these players will be back. If not, they won't be back, and they would not have been BSed by KW.

 

Us fans don't like hearing any conversation of key players leaving the team or exploring other options, but good God look at that market. You would have to be dumb to not see what was there, and you would be even dumber if you told your players that they shouldn't and expect them to listen to you.

Hey it more fun to assume he is saying the Sox are going through a rebuilding phase, not going to try and re-sign these guys, and not try and sign suitable replacements.

 

How is this any different with how Beane handled Tejada and Giambi? Oh right, KW didn't say the Sox weren't going to try and re-sign them.

[jackie hayes]

And, the White Sox are more than willing to pay. They like to find players that other teams want to get rid of, either because they feel that player is finished (Thome) or wants to get out from under their salary (Vazquez).

The Phils didn't think Thome was finished, they knew what they had in Howard. And Vazquez demanded a trade.

[YASNY]

So let me get this straight, KW is only saying these things for the fans so they don't get upset but in doing so he's upsetting the fans whom should not be getting upset over these comments because he's only saying these upsetting things to keep the fans from getting upset?

 

Huh?

[CWSGuy406]

And there comes a point where "overpaying" becomes a necessity, like when player contracts are running out and your minor league system is one of the worst in baseball and in possibly the worst shape in team history.

 

Out of this group, who should the Sox be looking to overpay?

 

I think him including Iguchi in there is just posturing. The market for second basemen isn't good at all. Adam Kennedy and Marcus Giles just signed contracts, and neither got a contract of a better annual value than $4 million per year. Unless Iguchi has a crazy good year with the bat, I can't see him getting more than $5 million per year.

 

Jermaine Dye will probably get paid by somebody, but is he the kind of guy you want to sign for 4-5 years? He's looking at his last big contract, so I doubt a three year deal would lock him up. He's also on his way to becoming a DH -- he just seems slower and slower in the field every year. He'll be 33 before the season starts, and is coming off of his best year ever by a long shot. I mean, his OPS in 2006 was close to 200 points better than his career OPS.

 

You could make the argument for Buehrle if he's able to bounce back to his pre-July-2006 form, but even then, his way of 'getting by' is more of an exception than a rule. And I can see a scenario where the Sox -- with this new plethora of minor league pitching talent* -- are saving for the time when Johan Santana hits the market. Because I'd say the odds of it happening are extremely strong. And if the Sox can have two-three of these pitching prospects pan out, they'll certainly be able to afford giving Johan $20 million per year.

[Kalapse]

Out of this group, who should the Sox be looking to overpay?

 

I think him including Iguchi in there is just posturing. The market for second basemen isn't good at all. Adam Kennedy and Marcus Giles just signed contracts, and neither got a contract of a better annual value than $4 million per year. Unless Iguchi has a crazy good year with the bat, I can't see him getting more than $5 million per year.

 

Jermaine Dye will probably get paid by somebody, but is he the kind of guy you want to sign for 4-5 years? He's looking at his last big contract, so I doubt a three year deal would lock him up. He's also on his way to becoming a DH -- he just seems slower and slower in the field every year. He'll be 33 before the season starts, and is coming off of his best year ever by a long shot. I mean, his OPS in 2006 was close to 200 points better than his career OPS.

 

You could make the argument for Buehrle if he's able to bounce back to his pre-July-2006 form, but even then, his way of 'getting by' is more of an exception than a rule. And I can see a scenario where the Sox -- with this new plethora of minor league pitching talent* -- are saving for the time when Johan Santana hits the market. Because I'd say the odds of it happening are extremely strong. And if the Sox can have two-three of these pitching prospects pan out, they'll certainly be able to afford giving Johan $20 million per year.

I just don't want to see Iguchi test the market, only bad could come of that. He seems like the easiest to sign during the season and is only going to cost you more if he does hit free agency. He's going to be the hardest of the 3 impending free agents to replace with so few options out there in free agency and no one within the organization capable of taking over that spot. I just imagine that if Tadahito does find his way to free agency that someone will offer him more money and years than the Sox had anticipated simply because of how hard it is to find a 2B these days and the amount of teams out there with money to spend and a whole at second.

 

If it's posturing then cool I have no problem but if he really does want Tadahito to go out there and see what he can get on the market, I think KW is going to be surprised at just how much it's going to cost him to retain his 2B when other teams are involved.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Why the heck take such an apporach towards Iguchi? He isn't going to get top dollar on the FA market, we have no one even on the radar to replace him and, simply put, we really, really need him.

[HawkFan81]

Why the heck take such an apporach towards Iguchi? He isn't going to get top dollar on the FA market, we have no one even on the radar to replace him and, simply put, we really, really need him.

 

Agreed. Its not like guch is gonna look for or recieve Konerko money. It simply comes across as an arrogant uneccesary comment by KW.

[DrunkBomber]

I could see us losing Dye because he might get a monster offer if he can come close to last years numbers. I think we should absolutely get Iguchi signed, and he shouldnt be insanely expensive and I wouldnt mind overpaying for MB if he shows any sign of bouncing back this year. His overall consistency over his career makes him worth it.

[Steve9347]

I'm sorry, but this is bad business... I can see JD, Buehrle, and Tada all being highly annoyed that KW felt the need to talk honestly about this.

[sircaffey]

I would hate it if KW were to give Dye a market-valued extension before the season. I mean, does anyone really know what Jermaine Dye will show up this season? Basically, with Fields and Sweeney our only luxury right now would be to take a wait-and-see approach as far the OF is concerned. I think a good portion of whether or not Fields moves to LF is whether Dye can be resigned. If Dye leaves, it's gonna be hard for KW to let Crede walk.

 

Iguchi doesn't fit into the same category that Mark and Jermaine do. Guess KW just didnt want to single any of our FA out.

[badatbest]

I'm sorry, but this is bad business... I can see JD, Buehrle, and Tada all being highly annoyed that KW felt the need to talk honestly about this.

 

I agree. There is no reason to mention their names. He could easily talk in more general term. I think Ozzie has rubbed off on KW, they both need to shut their mouths more often.

[Milkman delivers]

I'm sorry, but this is bad business... I can see JD, Buehrle, and Tada all being highly annoyed that KW felt the need to talk honestly about this.

 

It would annoy them that KW said he wouldn't hold it against them if they wanted to test free agency?

[Frank the Tank 35]

So can this story go hand-in-hand with the story about KW putting the scouts on alert? We still get picks for losing FAs, yes? (Not sure if the CB changed anything) Maybe he wants them ready to make some extra picks...

[AWhiteSoxinNJ]

can you shut up now? he brought us a world series trophy, and the team is still very competitive and jsut because teams like the cubs and giants raise the market value for players and the sox cant afford to chase players vs. the Red sox and Yanks and other big spenders means we should fire him? cmon, no general manager would somehow be able to lower the asking price of these players, and KW has a plan and if JD, Beurhle, or Guch arent in them then so be it, KW is committed to winning and so far has had a ton more success than alot of other people

 

No I will not shut up. KW has been horrible this offseason. Poor trades for Garcia and McCarthy. Trading Cotts for nothing. And now unwilling to even talk about extending our up and coming free agents. Sure we won a World Series, but I don't want to be a one and done team. And at this rate, why would any good free agent want to come here and why would any of our players want to resign with a hard nose, small market approach. Overall it's not get business to get your own players, and your fan base upset.

Edited February 18, 2007 by AWhiteSoxinNJ

[vandy125]

No I will not shut up. KW has been horrible this offseason. Poor trades for Garcia and McCarthy. Trading Cotts for nothing. And now unwilling to even talk about extending our up and coming free agents. Sure we won a World Series, but I don't want to be a one and done team. And at this rate, why would any good free agent want to come here and why would any of our players want to resign with a hard nose, small market approach. Overall it's not get business to get your own players, and your fan base upset.

 

How about we wait until, I dunno, we actually play some freakin games, before we call this any type of an offseason? We won 90 games last year, and can certainly expect to be around that number again this year. What makes you think this is a one and done team?

[witesoxfan]

No I will not shut up. KW has been horrible this offseason. Poor trades for Garcia and McCarthy. Trading Cotts for nothing. And now unwilling to even talk about extending our up and coming free agents. Sure we won a World Series, but I don't want to be a one and done team. And at this rate, why would any good free agent want to come here and why would any of our players want to resign with a hard nose, small market approach. Overall it's not get business to get your own players, and your fan base upset.

 

I really don't understand how he got a poor return for McCarthy; care to explain?

 

I also don't believe you're aware of the fact that the nothing Williams got back in return for Cotts had an ERA of more than a run lower than Cotts himself.

 

And for whatever reason, you feel as though this team will not be competitive this year. That is about the only way KW could have been horrible this offseason. I disagree with that, and I would venture to guess that everyone else on this board is likely to disagree with that thought as well.

[bigruss]

No I will not shut up. KW has been horrible this offseason. Poor trades for Garcia and McCarthy. Trading Cotts for nothing. And now unwilling to even talk about extending our up and coming free agents. Sure we won a World Series, but I don't want to be a one and done team. And at this rate, why would any good free agent want to come here and why would any of our players want to resign with a hard nose, small market approach. Overall it's not get business to get your own players, and your fan base upset.

 

uhh lets see, u just said one and done, thats what kenny is trying to prevent by having a surplus of young pitchers with high ceilings to replace the overpriced free agents. and i guess your right, why would any free agent want to come to a team were so many fans are so negative on their general manager who won the world series only 2 years ago and now wants him fired after winning 90 games in baseball's toughest division, yeah i wouldnt want to sign on that team either because of the negativity that fans like you bring onto a team that has once again a very good chance to win it all this upcoming season and in the near future.

 

and poor trades? how do u know that the trade is poor before spring training hasnt even gotten into full gear yet? if floyd is as good as our scouts say he is (and our pro scouts are quite good) then he could have a very surprising season in the 5 hole, and some scouts think gio is the next liriano, all for a guy who was being paid 10 mill for next season, probably wasnt going to resign, and had a dead arm for half of last season, oh by the way everybody (atleast almost everybody) knew and wanted him outta here

 

danks is projected as a little bit better than mccarthy, who even tho with a year in the bullpen and some outstanding performances as a starter, still wasnt any garuntee stud. someone else posted saying that teams tend to struggle versus pitchers with little or no scouting on them, and that def happened. im not saying hes going to suck, but he may not turn out to be as great as everybody thought, plus he gave up a ton of homers as a starter and reliever, then masset could also start, but seems better fit in the bullpen and has been seen as the next jenks, which i wont complain about getting

 

cotts, as incredible as his 2005 season was, has been wildly inconsistent, as his ERA has been up and down throughout his major league career, and to get a power arm in aardsma in return sounds pretty fair to me, plus i like wat KW said in that he is trading for players who fit well in the Cell

 

I do agree that KW has said some pretty stupid stuff (beurhle situation) and he needs to improve on PR situations, like the Frank Thomas one

 

THE ONLY WAY THE FAN BASE WILL NOT BE UPSET IS IF THE TEAM WINS GAMES AND CHAMPIONSHIPS, and that is what kenny is trying to do, he did once and i have faith that he can do it again very soon

[beck72]

I don't have any real problem with what KW said. The pending FA's aren't going to jump at the sox offers anyway after the ridiculous numbers that were tossed around this offseason. All of the sox Fa's should test the market and see what they can get.

 

All KW has to do is tell the agents "Come back to us after you get an offer" and the sox would still have a legitimate chance to re-sign them---[though Dye and Mark should get huge offers that the sox probably won't match]. The Sox telling the players and agents that 'we like you to come back but we aren't going to break the bank' isn't insulting--it's a realistic stance.

[southsideirish71]

Anyone that wants to dump KW or thinks he should be fired is a first class moron. We just one year out from the WS parade, so get a clue.

 

The only thing I think is that he should keep a lot of this behind closed doors, that is all. Players and their agents will leak this type of info. But when its coming from KWs mouth is when I have a problem. He is an executive and should handle himself as such. The whitesox have had a long history of not going into long term deals with pitchers. So them keeping with their long acting policy, I dont think it will work in the long term, but hey at least they are consistent. However they have paid top dollar at times, or at least within what is considered a normal contract for players for a while also. We haven't heard a thing about Dye, who knows what is going on there.

 

We have 2 choices here with the state of our farm system. We either complement our talent with some FA stock to keep things going. Or we trade some of our top talent for top prospects. With the state of our farm system, we cannot just fall back and rely on what we have from a positional standpoint. Our pitching in the farm, is a lot better now than a lot of people give it credit for.

[beck72]

Brian Cashman wants to wait until the offseason to sign Mariano Rivera--where Mariano can also test the market. Yet he doesn't get the same drubbing KW is getting. The trend is going to be that smart GM's are going to wait to know what other teams are offering before just throwing out numbers. IMO, Cashman and Kw are going to be ahead of the curve with regard to player contracts, just like they are with stockpiling arms.

[SkokieSox]

I'm sorry, but this is bad business... I can see JD, Buehrle, and Tada all being highly annoyed that KW felt the need to talk honestly about this.

On the flip side, I can see them being appreciative, getting the opportunity to see what kind of deal they could get outside the organization, while still having the opportunity to negotiate with the Sox. He basically took the pressure off of having contracts becoming a distraction. Just play, we'll talk later...

[badatbest]

KW loves the sound of his own voice.

[Hideaway Lights]

Anyone that wants to dump KW or thinks he should be fired is a first class moron. We just one year out from the WS parade, so get a clue.

 

The only thing I think is that he should keep a lot of this behind closed doors, that is all. Players and their agents will leak this type of info. But when its coming from KWs mouth is when I have a problem. He is an executive and should handle himself as such. The whitesox have had a long history of not going into long term deals with pitchers. So them keeping with their long acting policy, I dont think it will work in the long term, but hey at least they are consistent. However they have paid top dollar at times, or at least within what is considered a normal contract for players for a while also. We haven't heard a thing about Dye, who knows what is going on there.

 

We have 2 choices here with the state of our farm system. We either complement our talent with some FA stock to keep things going. Or we trade some of our top talent for top prospects. With the state of our farm system, we cannot just fall back and rely on what we have from a positional standpoint. Our pitching in the farm, is a lot better now than a lot of people give it credit for.

 

What other moves has Cashman made this offseason

 

when has cashman not gone out and traded for/gotten an FA that the fans wanted? It didnt' always work out but to compare cashman to williams is ludicrous.

 

Williams is already setting us up for a huge payroll slash in 08 and I will just about vomit if the Sox do that.

[mr_genius]

Well, Buehrle better have a great season or even his precious Cardinals won’t give him the money he wants.

[Milkman delivers]

uhh lets see, u just said one and done, thats what kenny is trying to prevent by having a surplus of young pitchers with high ceilings to replace the overpriced free agents. and i guess your right, why would any free agent want to come to a team were so many fans are so negative on their general manager who won the world series only 2 years ago and now wants him fired after winning 90 games in baseball's toughest division, yeah i wouldnt want to sign on that team either because of the negativity that fans like you bring onto a team that has once again a very good chance to win it all this upcoming season and in the near future.

 

and poor trades? how do u know that the trade is poor before spring training hasnt even gotten into full gear yet? if floyd is as good as our scouts say he is (and our pro scouts are quite good) then he could have a very surprising season in the 5 hole, and some scouts think gio is the next liriano, all for a guy who was being paid 10 mill for next season, probably wasnt going to resign, and had a dead arm for half of last season, oh by the way everybody (atleast almost everybody) knew and wanted him outta here

 

danks is projected as a little bit better than mccarthy, who even tho with a year in the bullpen and some outstanding performances as a starter, still wasnt any garuntee stud. someone else posted saying that teams tend to struggle versus pitchers with little or no scouting on them, and that def happened. im not saying hes going to suck, but he may not turn out to be as great as everybody thought, plus he gave up a ton of homers as a starter and reliever, then masset could also start, but seems better fit in the bullpen and has been seen as the next jenks, which i wont complain about getting

 

cotts, as incredible as his 2005 season was, has been wildly inconsistent, as his ERA has been up and down throughout his major league career, and to get a power arm in aardsma in return sounds pretty fair to me, plus i like wat KW said in that he is trading for players who fit well in the Cell

 

I do agree that KW has said some pretty stupid stuff (beurhle situation) and he needs to improve on PR situations, like the Frank Thomas one

 

THE ONLY WAY THE FAN BASE WILL NOT BE UPSET IS IF THE TEAM WINS GAMES AND CHAMPIONSHIPS, and that is what kenny is trying to do, he did once and i have faith that he can do it again very soon

 

What?

 

What other moves has Cashman made this offseason

 

when has cashman not gone out and traded for/gotten an FA that the fans wanted? It didnt' always work out but to compare cashman to williams is ludicrous.

 

Williams is already setting us up for a huge payroll slash in 08 and I will just about vomit if the Sox do that.

 

Yeah, that schmuck Cashman hasn't even won a WS in years with a payroll which happens to be the highest in all of baseball every single year he's been the GM.

 

It is ludicrous to compare Cashman to Williams, and a slap in the face of KW.

Edited February 19, 2007 by Milkman delivers