No Vets Elected

[StatManDu]

QUOTE(Jimbo @ Mar 1, 2007 -> 10:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No votes for Donn Pall or Don Wakamatsu or Ron Karkovice...this crap is tainted i say.

Don't forget Jose Munoz, BB Richard, Chris Snopek or Nyls Nyman

[Jimbo's Drinker]

Don't forget Jose Munoz, BB Richard, Chris Snopek or Nyls Nyman

 

 

Snopek is already in, he and Jeff Abbot were elected in 06,

[Pants Rowland]

There's no way anyone can conclusively say what would have happened over the course of a full season of competition if the Negro league players had been allowed in MLB. Surely, there were Negro leaguers who would have excelled, but there are just as many who would have failed to live up to their billing. Just use Triple A can't miss prospects as an example of how wrong scouts can be when the players move up to the next level.

 

All Star games are just that. All Star games. The Negro league All Stars likely would have done well in MLB, but every player in the Negro leagues was NOT Paige or Gibson. They had their fair share of roster filler, and I'm sure that some of the numbers that the All Star Negro league players accrued came at the expense of these lesser players. That said, I think Negro league players do have a place in the HOF, but I don't think it's right to say that any player would have dominated the MLB players because we just won't ever really know.

 

My initial comments were very much tongue in cheek, but it is fairly safe to assume that the overall quality of play and level of talent in MLB would have increased substantially had Cap Anson and Kennesaw Mountain Landis not resisted integration. My understanding was that the Negro Leagues were as talented (and untalented) as MLB. Just as not all Negro Leaguers were Paige or Gibson, not all MLB players were Walter Johnson or Babe Ruth, either.

 

The AL was maligned for a long time by the haughty National League, which had already been in existance for 25 years when the AL declared itself a major league. Some old time fans still refer to the NL as the "Senior Circuit" and dismiss the AL as a sideshow of sorts. Those fans are obviously few and far between nowadays, but the arrogance was there for some time. A similar arrogance contributed to the myth that the Negro Leagues were of lesser talent and were a lower quality brand of baseball. Further, a lot of marginal players in the all-white AL & NL would also have fallen by the wayside rather than having productive careers had integration taken place long before Robinson broker the color barrier.

 

Think of the quality of talent that would be lost if we removed all black, latino, and asian players from the major leagues. Do you think it would be better or worse? The WBC last year illustrated that small countries such as Korea, Japan, P.R., D.R., Venezuela, and Cuba are as competitive and talented as the U.S., if not moreso. They obviously had marginal players on their rosters that would not make it big in the majors and are definitely not HOF material. However, the same applies for the U.S. roster, which did not even fare as well as several of these teams and that is with both white and black players. How would the U.S. team have performed even worse if you removed all of the black players? They may have had trouble with the Netherlands.

 

You are correct that we will never know who from both sides of the color barrier would emerge as the truly elite talent. However, if some Negro Leaguers were comparable to can't miss prospects that couldn't cut it in the majors, then it is more than likely the same could be said of the white players in MLB prior to integration. With that in mind, the Negro League stars should be given just as much HOF consideration as the elite MLB players from the period prior to integration. I have not analyzed the acceptance process of Negro League Players in the HOF, but historians seem to indicate that the opposite has been the case.

[SoxFan562004]

There's a clip of Levine and Joe Morgan getting into a huge argument over this topic. Levine was very matter-of-fact in the discussion. He basically said that the veterans were not the right people to chose who should go in the HOF, and Morgan obviously disagreed with that notion.

 

IMO, it is a little odd that the veterans haven't added anyone in 6 years, however, what doesn't fly with me is the Santo supporters who are saying since Santo isn't in, the system doesn't work and everyone is wrong. The main problem I have with this argument is he was on the regular ballot for 15 years and didn't get elected, that tells me he is not a slam-dunk HOF'er by definition. If he got in, I don't think it would be a travesty, but I also don't think that it is a tragedy if he doesn't. Many of his supporters seem to be overlooking the fact that he wasn't voted in by the reporters in previous years.

 

I guess his recent influx of support stems from his medical problems he has had over the past few years. My dad is diabetic, and everytime I hear of what Santo went through it scares the hell out of me, but that doesn't mean he is better suited to be in the HOF than he was the first time he was on the ballot as the HOF is currently situated. However, I have always thought the HOF should add a section for people who might not be HOF level players, but contributed greatly to the game, ie Tommy John for pioneering the comeback from the radical surgery, or the players who paved the way for FA, etc... then Santo could be in for dealing with his disease during his playing days.

 

I would have to look back to see if there's anything detailing the veteran's supposed role, but Joe Morgan seems comfortable with the process.

[StatManDu]

Good stuff from both Beltin Bill and SoxFan562004. ... I think Levine is wrong although I havent' seen the clip. If the Veterans are doing their homework, they are exactly the right people to be voting in players. If not them, who?

 

It's just really hard to get a handle on this whole process but it appears pioneering doesn't really resonate with the Hall. It took Larry Doby forever to get in and he was an obvious pioneer. The subtle pioneers such as Tommy John (arm surgery) or even Santo (diabetes if you want to look at it like that) are having a helluva time getting in. The fact that the players didn't vote MARVIN MILLER in, should say something.

[Texsox]

This sounds bad, but Santo won't get in until hes dead. just my thought

 

Sounding even worse, let me add, it depends on how soon he dies.

 

 

The Veterans Committee are validating the writers votes through the years. I laugh at the whole concept of first ballot HoF or second, etc. It's not like they are still hittin' home runs or racking up Ks.

[Middle Buffalo]

I agree.

 

Internationally speaking, though, I believe that the recent failure of our professionals (NBA, MLB) against other countries has as much to do with our players lack of commitment to train for the events, arrogance, and poorly constructed teams. Essentially, in baseball, we sent the 2005 Yankees to battle when we would be better served to send the '96 Yankees. Players have to be willing to sacrifice their personal glory for the good of the team.

[Pants Rowland]

I agree.

 

Internationally speaking, though, I believe that the recent failure of our professionals (NBA, MLB) against other countries has as much to do with our players lack of commitment to train for the events, arrogance, and poorly constructed teams. Essentially, in baseball, we sent the 2005 Yankees to battle when we would be better served to send the '96 Yankees. Players have to be willing to sacrifice their personal glory for the good of the team.

 

No doubt. The U.S. sports federations have a bad habit of looking at the top players statistically and failing to fill in the gaps created by their broad shoulders. The lack of role players has resulted in consistent disappointment on the international stage.

 

I may be speculating, but this same reasoning may offer a tiny clue as to why Santo is not in the HOF and also why his vote tallies from fifteen years of eligibility were so low compared to his near success in the veterans committee.

 

Media eye witnesses covering baseball daily are able to objectively summarize a player's entire career and vote for the HOF. They look at the numbers but they also remember the intangibles such as clutch hits, advancing runners, taking an error while trying to save a run, playing with injuries, etc. If a player is not the complete package, odds are fifteen years are not going to be enough to get him in the HOF via a media vote.

 

Then the veterans are asked to reconsider just in case the press slighted him somehow. Some of these veterans were contemporaries of said player and can judge accordingly. However, many others did not follow his career and are forced to either abstain or rely on paper numbers.

 

With Santo, this has dragged on for so long that the intangibles of his game have effectively been thrown out. This forces the voters to compare numbers to other players in the HOF. Santo's supporters have taken it a step further and said the VC should compare his stats to other 3B in the HOF rather than all HOF members. The true Santo fanatics say he should only be compared to the 3B from his era, especially in the NL alone. If you spin the facts enough and look at them from just the right angle, you conclude that Santo's ommission is nothing less than a tragedy. Using the same approach, I am sure someone could argue Dave Kingman into the HOF along with Harold Baines, Jim Rice, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy and a whole slew of other borderline players with impressive paper stats.

 

Time heals all wounds. In the case of Santo and his supporters, time seems to be putting enough distance between the voters and possible gaps in his game. I am too young to opine on his qualifications, but older fans I know that watched his career do not split +75% pro to -25% con for his induction. To hear his career described by someone who was there, he sounds like another good player with some impressive statistics. Believe it or not, there are a lot of players in that category who have to pay for a ticket to get into Cooperstown.

Edited March 1, 2007 by Beltin'Bill