Jesus documentary

[longshot7]

let's hope we can respect each other and not let this devolve into name-calling...

 

 

Has anyone heard about this documentary set to air on Discovery/History channel in which they purport to find the tombs of Jesus, Mary, Mary Magdalene, Jesus' son Judah, etc? It was produced by James Cameron, of Terminator & titanic fame. Yesterday they had a press conference outlining their discoveries and their conclusions.

 

Without paraphrasing important details and getting it wrong, I would recommend checking out the New York Times' article on it. There is understandedly a lot of outrage over this in Christian circles, and their research and conclusions have come under fire by several important archaelogists.

 

Is there a conclusion that the filmmakers can draw that will not raise ire? Are they jumping to a conclusion before having all the facts? Are they letting personal beliefs influence what should be a purely scientific investigation?

 

Thoughts?

[CrimsonWeltall]

one box that says "mary" and another that says "judah, son of jesus"?

 

I'M CONVINCED

[HuskyCaucasian]

one box that says "mary" and another that says "judah, son of jesus"?

 

I'M CONVINCED

and they aren't even sure it really is the name Jesus!

 

On a side note: I was told by a biblical scholar a while back that many believe Jesus real name was Jesua (or Joshua), but he is referd to as Jesus in the bible (I don't remember why there was a difference). So, is it "judah, son of jesus" or "judah, son of Jesua" on this box? That would make a HUGE difference to me.

 

on another side note: I heard that this type of burial chamber and boxes is very middle to upper class in quality. According to the bible, Jesus' family was a lower class family. His dad was a carpenter, so not really middle class. His family would not have been able to afford this kind of burial.

[EvilMonkey]

Which 'headline' sounds more likely to occur:

 

1) Angry Christians Shout "Christ Is Risen" As They Beat James Cameron For Making Jesus-Is-Dead Film

or

2) Muslims chant "Allah is great" while beating a director for displaying the barbaric practice of "honor" killings.

 

(hint, it is number 2. http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2007/02/...-beat-with.html )

[Middle Buffalo]

I heard that this type of burial chamber and boxes is very middle to upper class in quality. According to the bible, Jesus' family was a lower class family. His dad was a carpenter, so not really middle class. His family would not have been able to afford this kind of burial.

Joseph was in the Union, and he did some work on the side, so money wasn't an issue for the Son of God.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Joseph was in the Union, and he did some work on the side, so money wasn't an issue for the Son of God.

 

Probably also a little 'Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's. . . but don't count what Poppa Joe is making under the table. . . ' going on as well.

 

Then again, when you take into account the bar tabs after a couple softball nights each week (Joseph and Son Carpentry played for and also sponsored the Nazereth Nailers if I recall my catechism correctly), there were probably some lean weekshere and there at Rancho Christo.

 

Tell me bread from heaven and water into wine didn't come in handy there.

[NorthSideSox72]

Interesting discussion, but I think that people who are either outraged or joyful are missing the point. For a person of faith, I don't see why Jesus having potentially been married or having kids is detrimental. It just makes him that much more of the flesh, and further expands on one of the things that makes Christianity somewhat unique - God in human form.

[southsider2k5]

Interesting discussion, but I think that people who are either outraged or joyful are missing the point. For a person of faith, I don't see why Jesus having potentially been married or having kids is detrimental. It just makes him that much more of the flesh, and further expands on one of the things that makes Christianity somewhat unique - God in human form.

 

It also makes thing much more realisitic I understand my history. It would have been really odd for a Jew of Christ's age to not have married, and it would have made people weary of listening to him.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Interesting discussion, but I think that people who are either outraged or joyful are missing the point. For a person of faith, I don't see why Jesus having potentially been married or having kids is detrimental. It just makes him that much more of the flesh, and further expands on one of the things that makes Christianity somewhat unique - God in human form.

 

I agree that a fully human Jesus, fully engaged in all domestic aspects of human life is not something that should shake the foundations of the faith. But I think you are missing the real point for the by-the-book faithful. If Jesus rose from the dead and 30 days later ascended bodily into heaven, how could his bones possibly be in an ossuary in a tomb in Jerusalem?

[NorthSideSox72]

I agree that a fully human Jesus, fully engaged in all domestic aspects of human life is not something that should shake the foundations of the faith. But I think you are missing the real point for the by-the-book faithful. If Jesus rose from the dead and 30 days later ascended bodily into heaven, how could his bones possibly be in an ossuary in a tomb in Jerusalem?

Well, I wasn't really addressing the Bible-literalists (i.e. Crazy Carl), who are sort of pointless to discuss. I can't handle conversations with people like that. Most of the Christians I know have varying levels of faith and devotion, but very few are 100% literal about the text.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Well, I wasn't really addressing the Bible-literalists (i.e. Crazy Carl), who are sort of pointless to discuss. I can't handle conversations with people like that. Most of the Christians I know have varying levels of faith and devotion, but very few are 100% literal about the text.

Perhaps not, but rising from the dead or not is not some minor Bible trivia quibbling point like when Jesus turned the water into wine was it merlot or shiraz. Died. . . rose. . . will come again. . . t's sort of the central tenet of Christianity.

[NorthSideSox72]

Perhaps not, but rising from the dead or not is not some minor Bible trivia quibbling point like when Jesus turned the water into wine was it merlot or shiraz. Died. . . rose. . . will come again. . . t's sort of the central tenet of Christianity.

True. I just don't think you have to believe that Jesus' body vanished from the tomb as stated in the text, to believe he rose from the dead. As the son of God, his body was sort of superfluous at that point.

 

I am not trying to say its not an important topic - just that it isn't something that should shake anyone's faith, nor validate anyone's disbelief.

[Soxy]

Perhaps not, but rising from the dead or not is not some minor Bible trivia quibbling point like when Jesus turned the water into wine was it merlot or shiraz. Died. . . rose. . . will come again. . . t's sort of the central tenet of Christianity.

Actually, Flaxx, there is a rather large contigent of (admittedly, the more liberal denominations) Christians who believe that the resurrection was spiritual, and that the bodily resurrection was simply a metaphor. See: Marcus Borg

[FlaSoxxJim]

Actually, Flaxx, there is a rather large contigent of (admittedly, the more liberal denominations) Christians who believe that the resurrection was spiritual, and that the bodily resurrection was simply a metaphor. See: Marcus Borg

That is true, I misrepresented all of Christiandom as being wrapped up with the fate of the corporeal body. Those people aren't the folks up in arms about the claims made by this film though.

 

For my part, I think the claim that the tomb has anything to do with a historical living Jesus is a crock, despite the filmmakers' statisticians who say there's at least a 600 to 1 chance the tomb and remains are Jesus'.

[southsider2k5]

OK whoever has something from grandfamily.com in their post or sig needs to kill it, because it keeps popping up a sign in prompt everytime you open this thread!

[Soxy]

That is true, I misrepresented all of Christiandom as being wrapped up with the fate of the corporeal body. Those people aren't the folks up in arms about the claims made by this film though.

 

For my part, I think the claim that the tomb has anything to do with a historical living Jesus is a crock, despite the filmmakers' statisticians who say there's at least a 600 to 1 chance the tomb and remains are Jesus'.

I agree with you. I think it's just a money making scheme (James Cameron for crikey's sake!). Anyway, if it was real I HIGHLY doubt it would have waited this long (close to 25 years, right?) to be disclosed. It would have been exploited YEARS ago. Just another fast buck shroud of Turin.

[southsider2k5]

OK whoever has something from grandfamily.com in their post or sig needs to kill it, because it keeps popping up a sign in prompt everytime you open this thread!

 

NVM, it was athomeboy. I took a part out of your signature that was triggering a pop up.

[CanOfCorn]

That is true, I misrepresented all of Christiandom as being wrapped up with the fate of the corporeal body. Those people aren't the folks up in arms about the claims made by this film though.

 

For my part, I think the claim that the tomb has anything to do with a historical living Jesus is a crock, despite the filmmakers' statisticians who say there's at least a 600 to 1 chance the tomb and remains are Jesus'.

 

I hope they make sure it doesn't say Jeebus, who, as we all know, was Jesus' evil twin.

 

And it doesn't really matter anyway, because, again, the sequel is NEVER as good as the original.

 

Seriously, though, I would watch it just to see what they have to say. Anytime there is empirical evidence that challenges ANY part of faith, even the merlot or shiraz debate that Flaxx brought up earlier, it sends the church historians and leaders scrambling to explain. And that can chip away at certain people's faith.

[Jenksismyhero]

As to the body issue, didn't they say the coffin was empty?

 

Also the reason that it took 25 years to come out was that they found it and then the local authorities closed it down before they could investigate further. I'd imagine Cameron's pull ($) helped them change their mind.

[Balta1701]

As to the body issue, didn't they say the coffin was empty?

 

Also the reason that it took 25 years to come out was that they found it and then the local authorities closed it down before they could investigate further. I'd imagine Cameron's pull ($) helped them change their mind.

I'm wondering more personally why the first way this was presented was in the form of a made-for-tv documentary, instead of actually being published in an archeological journal or Nature, where it could go through some sort of peer review process.

[SoxFan562004]

Joseph was in the Union, and he did some work on the side, so money wasn't an issue for the Son of God.

...he built my hot rod

[HuskyCaucasian]

OK whoever has something from grandfamily.com in their post or sig needs to kill it, because it keeps popping up a sign in prompt everytime you open this thread!

Sorry about that. I'm not sure what happened. odd. oh well. My apologies.

[FlaSoxxJim]

OK whoever has something from grandfamily.com in their post or sig needs to kill it, because it keeps popping up a sign in prompt everytime you open this thread!

 

 

I keep getting that as well. I thought the site had been Gaged.

[HuskyCaucasian]

I got this e-mail from famed biblical archeologist and Professor of Ancient History at Western Michigan University... Paul L. Maier, PhD.

 

February 25, 2007

 

Dear Friends and Readers,

 

Thanks for the profusion of e-mails I've received over the last two days regarding the Talpiot tombs discovery in Jerusalem, a.k.a., "the Jesus Family Tomb" story. Some of you also suggested that "life seemed to be following art" so far as my A Skeleton in God's Closet was concerned. Believe me, this is not the way I wanted my novel to hit the visual media!

 

Alas, this whole affair is just the latest in the long-running media attack on the historical Jesus, which - we thought - had culminated in that book of lies, The Da Vinci Code. But no: the caricatures of Christ continue.

 

Please, lose no sleep over the Talpiot "discoveries" for the following reasons, and here are the facts:.

 

1) Nothing is new here: scholars have known about the ossuaries ever since March of 1980. The general public learned when the BBC filmed a documentary on them in 1996. James Tabor's book, The Jesus Dynasty, also made a big fuss over the Talpiot tombs more recently, and now James Cameron (The Titanic) and Simcha Jacobovici have climbed aboard the sensationalist bandwagon as well. He

 

2) All the names - Yeshua, Joseph, Maria, Mariamene, Matia, Judah, and Jose -- are extremely frequent Jewish names for that time and place, and thus most schol-ars consider this merely coincidental, as they did from the start. One-quarter of Jewish women at that time, for example, were named Maria.

 

3) There is no reason whatever to equate "Mary Magdalene" with "Mariamene," as Jacobovici claims.

 

4) So what if her DNA is different from that of "Yeshua" ? That particular :Mariamme" (as it is usually spelled today) could indeed have been the wife of that particular "Yeshua."

 

5) What in the world is the "Jesus Family" doing, having a burial plot in Jerusalem, of all places, the very city that crucified Jesus? Galilee was their home. In Galilee they could have had such a family plot, not Judea. Besides all of which, church tradition - and Eusebius - are unanimous in reporting that Mary died in Ephesus, where the apostle John, faithful to his commission from Jesus on the cross, had accompanied Mary.

 

6) If this were Jesus' family burial, what is Matthew doing there - if indeed "Ma-tia" is thus to be translated?

 

7) How come there is no tradition whatever - Christian, Jewish, or secular -- that any part of the Holy Family was buried at Jerusalem?

 

8) Please note the extreme bias of the director and narrator, Simcha Jacobovici. The man is an Indiana-Jones-wannabe, who over-sensationalizes anything he touches. You may have caught him on his TV special regarding The Exodus, in which the man "explained" just everything that still needed proving or explaining in the Exodus account in the Old Testament! It finally became ludicrous, and now he's doing it again. - As for James Cameron, how do you follow The Titanic? Well, with an even more "titanic" story. He should have known better.

 

There are more arguments, to be sure, but I want to get this off pronto.

 

With warm regards,

 

Paul L. Maier

[longshot7]

I too am VERY skeptical about this - and I'm about as far from a Christian as one can get. The things I've read have said that the inscriptions are incredibly hard to decipher - and the coincidence of the names just seems too easy for me.

 

To whoever questioned the middle class tomb - there is no evidence on either side that can prove how rich or poor Jesus' family was. Take everything in the Bible with a grain of salt unless it can be confirmed in other secular 1st Century sources.

 

The thing that makes me the most mad about this whole thing - is how desperate the filmmakers & some non-Christians seem to disprove Christianity. Since when did someone need EVIDENCE to disprove that someone didn't rise from the dead? Common sense should dictate this.

 

I don't see it changing anyone's minds. Good Christians will have their faith, regardless of what anyone says. Why is either side so desperate for validation? Just respect others' beliefs - why do this just to piss the other side off? What good does that serve?