12 year old dies of toothache

[Soxy]

I wonder if bottled water without flouride is causing more dental problems for kids.

Fluoride, today's snake oil. One of the professor's at my school is actually on the national panel and he has found some pretty detrimental effects of fluoride--as well as arguing that it's only minimally effective against cavaties and tooth decay.

[Jenksismyhero]

This Malcolm Gladwell article on healthcare starts off discussing tooth decay. Almost prophetic. It's a long read, but for the tiny percentage of people out there interested in public health policy, I think it's interesting. I don't believe Gladwell is a knee-jerk "socialist" either, IIRC he used to be in favor of the government staying out of healthcare.

 

See, here's my thing with Gladwell. I like his approach because it's different. It says: we waste a ton of money on blanket-programs, let's focus the funds to fix the most expensive parts of the problems. That'll make more economic sense. So in this case if it's going to cost us 250k in medical bills later we might as well spend 10k on them now and save ourselves a ton of money. Even though we don't like to do that because it feels wrong to give people free money who don't deserve it, in the name of economics lets do it anyway.

 

But the problem with this is that you never fix the problem. I'm finding more and more that our social programs aren't designed to fix problems. Be it poverty, lack of health care, lack of food, whatever, the solution to the problem is always: let's just give them what they need, we'll work on the underlying causes of the problem later.

 

Why don't we take Gladwell's theory and use it in a different area altogether? Why don't we take the XX millions that we spend on welfare and put the money into schools and communities? The entire fallacy behind the welfare system is that the more you give people money, the more money they expect to be given. Funny how we've gone 40-50 years now giving people money and our poverty rates are worse, our homelessness #'s are worse.

 

So why should we just GIVE people healthcare? Obviously it's going to help certain people today, but it's not going to help the hundreds of thousands later. How about we fix the underlying problems of poverty? Why not attack the fact that the people on welfare have ZERO desire to get off welfare because it's free money? Why not create social programs to help them understand the necessity of education? Why not create programs for job placement? (and yes, i realize there are exceptions where people really work hard to get off welfare, but i'm willing to be the overwhelming majority don't).

 

This is obviously a sad story, but it's funny that we look at it from the perspective of 'wow the government is terrible for not providing them what they need,' when in my mind we should be saying, 'what's preventing these people from utilizing the services the government already does provide or why are they so dependent on the government in the first place?'

Edited March 2, 2007 by Jenksismybitch

[Texsox]

Why do we help people today? Perhaps it is because enough people in this country do not like hearing about 12-year old kids dying because of a toothache. Perhaps enough people in this country would rather give other people money than step over the bodies of starving people? We could stop all these social programs, and perhaps Sally Struthers will come to our neighborhoods instead of some third world country, and ask people to please help this starving person.

[Jenksismyhero]

Why do we help people today? Perhaps it is because enough people in this country do not like hearing about 12-year old kids dying because of a toothache. Perhaps enough people in this country would rather give other people money than step over the bodies of starving people? We could stop all these social programs, and perhaps Sally Struthers will come to our neighborhoods instead of some third world country, and ask people to please help this starving person.

 

 

Our current system 'caused' the death of this girl... so how exactly are we helping them? I know, let's just give them MORE money! That'll help them, right?

[Texsox]

Our current system 'caused' the death of this girl... so how exactly are we helping them? I know, let's just give them MORE money! That'll help them, right?

 

Nice try at twisting my answer.

 

You asked why we help and I gave an answer to "why we help". No I don't think more money would have helped. Knowledge of existing systems would have helped.

 

Why do you think we help?

[mreye]

The kid who died wasn't the one with 6 rotten teeth.

 

No, but one of her kids did. My point is this isn't just one cavity like all of us had as kids.

[Texsox]

Your teeth are a great indicator of your overall health, or so my dentist says . A poor diet will result in poor teeth.

[shipps]

I work in an emergency room.Honestly, the people who work hard and have insurance through their jobs have a harder time of getting healthcare than those with public aid.And to make things worse public aid is abused more than people are aware of.You shouldnt be getting emergency services for a sneeze yet time after time public aid participants come in with small complaints like that.And the bill will be atleast 400 bucks for a SNEEZE.And who is paying for that?

[Texsox]

I work in an emergency room.Honestly, the people who work hard and have insurance through their jobs have a harder time of getting healthcare than those with public aid.And to make things worse public aid is abused more than people are aware of.You shouldnt be getting emergency services for a sneeze yet time after time public aid participants come in with small complaints like that.And the bill will be atleast 400 bucks for a SNEEZE.And who is paying for that?

 

That has been a problem for decades, using the ERs for non emergency care. Usually because it is cheaper for the patient than a Doctors office, and ERs, for the most part can not refuse service, while a private practice DR. can.

 

Needs to be changed.

[Rex Kickass]

In the state of New Jersey, you can not be denied service if you walk into an ER. Seeing a non-walk in clinic doctor can be quite difficult without insurance, IMO, here otherwise.

[hitlesswonder]

Why don't we take Gladwell's theory and use it in a different area altogether? Why don't we take the XX millions that we spend on welfare and put the money into schools and communities? The entire fallacy behind the welfare system is that the more you give people money, the more money they expect to be given. Funny how we've gone 40-50 years now giving people money and our poverty rates are worse, our homelessness #'s are worse.

 

So why should we just GIVE people healthcare? Obviously it's going to help certain people today, but it's not going to help the hundreds of thousands later. How about we fix the underlying problems of poverty? Why not attack the fact that the people on welfare have ZERO desire to get off welfare because it's free money? Why not create social programs to help them understand the necessity of education? Why not create programs for job placement? (and yes, i realize there are exceptions where people really work hard to get off welfare, but i'm willing to be the overwhelming majority don't).

 

Well, I agree to a certain extent. I believe that the US has employed half-assed "fixes" to societal problems (like affirmative action) rather than attacking fundamental disfunctions. Instead of affrimative action, it seems like it would make more sense to provide a decent education and a reasonably safe neighborhood for everybody. Right now, safety and education are strongly associated with economic class. The problem is that equaliziing this would cost a lot of money. And I think that most people would be against having their taxes raised to provide money for schools and cops in Chicago. Personally, again, I'd be willing to pay higher taxes for that, but I'm not sure a lot of people would.

 

As far as "giving" people healthcare, count me in. Even people with decent jobs and emplyer provided coverage go bankrupt when a major medical problem occurs. I know a lot of people believe that if you work hard and do everything you are supposed to, your life will be just fine. I don't -- bad things happen to all kinds of people I'd like to live in a society will not let someone die because they lack the money needed for medical care. Again, that's just my opinion; believing that everyone has to take personal repsonsibility for themselves is just as justifiable.

 

As for poverty in America, I don't believe it's that rates are worse than they used to be. From Wikipedia: "From 1963 when Lyndon Johnson took office until 1970 as the impact of his Great Society programs were felt, the portion of Americans living below the poverty line dropped from 22.2 percent to 12.6 percent, the most dramatic decline over such a brief period in this century". That 12 percent is about where we're at today. Similarly homelessness and poverty among the elderly is much lower now than before social security.

 

I agree that people abuse the social welfare system (e.g. medicaid), and we should attempt to curtail that abuse. But I don't believe in abolishing the entire program just because it's subject to some fraud. I'm all for restructuring public assistance to achieve a better result, but it's obviously a difficult problem.

[Balta1701]

In the state of New Jersey, you can not be denied service if you walk into an ER. Seeing a non-walk in clinic doctor can be quite difficult without insurance, IMO, here otherwise.

The rules are the same here in California. The uninsured have basically no place to go other than to the ER.

 

Of course, anyone who had half a brain and was designing a system would consider this a terrible idea; ER visits are ungodly expensive, they're designed for emergencies, not to be the sole provider of care for people. But because of the lack of insurance for so many people, we wind up having people with no choice but to go to the ER when they decide they need care for something, which of course helps drive prices through the roof and keeps those people in debt.

 

And on top of that, the huge cost of going to the ER when you have no other insurance is a huge impediment to getting actual care, such as, for example, being able to go to a dentist when you have a cavity before they turn into 6 cavities or a disease that kills you. Preventative medicine would be so much cheaper if it were just employed in an intelligent way, but no, we just toss people to the ER.

[Rex Kickass]

I was advised to go to the ER for chest pains in January. The day before my insurance kicked in. Two and a half hours: $2000 (More than half of that time I spent in a gurney lying outside of X-Ray waiting to be wheeled back to the ER). Turns out I pulled a rib cage muscle in the gym. The best part about this story, is that the insurance companies pay about half that cost. No insurance? Hello, full price!

[Balta1701]

As for poverty in America, I don't believe it's that rates are worse than they used to be. From Wikipedia: "From 1963 when Lyndon Johnson took office until 1970 as the impact of his Great Society programs were felt, the portion of Americans living below the poverty line dropped from 22.2 percent to 12.6 percent, the most dramatic decline over such a brief period in this century". That 12 percent is about where we're at today. Similarly homelessness and poverty among the elderly is much lower now than before social security.

No luck finding the actual data on Google yet, and I'm only on a modem today so I'm lazy, but I believe one of, if not the biggest group, which moved from being consistently stuck in poverty to actually being able to move out of poverty in the 1960's was Senior Citizens...because suddenly there was a program dealing with their catastrophic health costs.

[BobDylan]

The highest visibility company is Walmart. Their Human Resource groups do a great job of letting their employees know about educational opportunities through grants, loans, etc. They help with finding child care programs, medical, dental, and vision programs, etc. The same stuff that Lesko will sell you in a book. All these programs are designed to help bridge people from public aid to fully independent. They help the "caught in the middle" workers who were sometimes better off not working, in the sense they had handouts.

 

Many people blame the companies that publicize these programs for not just providing those benefits. In a nutshell. don't provide those benefits, but tell you employees about the government programs they qualify for, bad. Don't provide those benefits and don't tell your employees, good.

 

I think good is the wrong word. I think when they tell them how to go to school instead of providing it, it feels like a little bit of a "f*** you" from "the man". Not everybody is in a position where they can just go to school. If I understand correctly, soon as you're enrolled in school, they take away the governmental handouts? How's one supposed to feed a family with no job or aid? If I'm right on that...isn't Walmart in turn saying more of, "Well, you can either work your 40 hours/week here and put food on the table or go to school, lose out on your paycheck and starve until you have the education to get a better job." Plus, getting those grants and loans isn't nearly as easy as they make it sound. ...Of course, I might be talking out of my ass here. And I probably am.

[southsideirish71]

I think good is the wrong word. I think when they tell them how to go to school instead of providing it, it feels like a little bit of a "f*** you" from "the man". Not everybody is in a position where they can just go to school. If I understand correctly, soon as you're enrolled in school, they take away the governmental handouts? How's one supposed to feed a family with no job or aid? If I'm right on that...isn't Walmart in turn saying more of, "Well, you can either work your 40 hours/week here and put food on the table or go to school, lose out on your paycheck and starve until you have the education to get a better job." Plus, getting those grants and loans isn't nearly as easy as they make it sound. ...Of course, I might be talking out of my ass here. And I probably am.

 

I am sick and tired of hearing how people who are able cannot work, and will not work because the handouts are better. How about this work and work hard and you can succeed. Preach education and hard work to your children, and they will follow suit. When my family came over we didnt know if we were going to eat after the first week, but my dad worked his ass off, working multiple jobs. He preached the hard work, and he preached education is your primary goal. He never said, well lets get some public aid and maybe the government will take care of us. Why, because he had pride. Pride in him, and pride in the message he gave his children. The poor of society can make a difference and can bring themselves up. It doesnt happen overnight, and it takes a generation or so. And that is the problem. There are a lot of people that would rather blame their situation on outside factors, and would rather wait for their payday. Like some money fairy is going to drop off bags of gold. This is why there is a high dropout rate, and a high crime rate amoungst the poor. A parent has a profound affect on their children and the people they are going to be. If they see laziness, or lack of hope...they will have lack of hope and will be lazy. Its a shame that this child had died on something that could of been fixed easily. However the parents had a responsibility and should of worked on that one. Here is the formula for making it out of being poor. Live within your means. Dont buy expensive cigarettes. Quit, Take the money you would use on that, and put it towards your kids educations. Dont drink, take the money you would use for drinking and put it towards your kids education. Dont eat out, eat at home. Go to second hand stores to get clothes. You dont need expensive shoes. Go and garbage pick for a bike and put it together yourself. These are the things my family did to take themselves out of the situation that they were at. Other people have to realize that their children are their legacy, and they should do whatever it takes to make sure that they are better off than they are.

Edited March 5, 2007 by southsideirish71

[Queen Prawn]

The idea of dying from a toothache is making me nervous. I go in at 5:30 tonight to deal with my cracked molar.

 

I have never had a cracked tooth so I do not know what to expect. From what two people have said, it will have to be pulled. I hope the dentist has a remedy that doesn't call for pulling the tooth, but I know my luck and I doubt there is.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Queen Prawn