Sox Lockup Vazquez to Contract Ext.

[Dick Allen]

his record doesnt mean much pitching for mediocre teams. Not to mention its a worthless stat for most pitchers. And he would also push for him to NOT sign this extension because the next 2 years like you say, he would actually be paid MORE.

Yeah, he played for some horrendous teams.

His best months after he made adjustments to his motion and stance, he was 2-5 with a 3.61 and 70+ k's. Would you say his record is more important than either of his other stats?

He may have been paid more the next 2 seasons, depending on his 2007 results. Another year like the last 2 1/2 and I think the White Sox would have a pretty good case in arbitration offering him $11.5 million, and you don't have the commitment for the following 2 seasons. Wins and losses are not a worthless stat. Sometimes they can be a little misleading, but take last season with Vazquez. He had the lead in every game he pitched except for 2 or 3 and still finished below .500. The White Sox play pretty good defense. Those losses were on him. He coughed them up.

[Hideaway Lights]

I wouldn't embarrass someone by comparing them to Pedro Martinez.

 

The point is whether pitching for the expos makes a significant impact on your career winning percentage

 

Pedro was 55-33 (.625) with the Expos

 

He is 206-92 (.691) in his career

 

Seems to me like it wasn't altogether that significant. Sure, it went up, but he was also younger with the expos and came really into his own in his last year in Montreal.

[badatbest]

This was a great deal. I'm usually pretty critical, but this was a steal. The length of the contract is ideal and the money is below what i would have expected considering the jokers getting huge contracts this offseason. Plus, at his worst Javy is a solid 4 of 5 starter. At his best, he could be an ace, he has the stuff. I love the contract.

[RockRaines]

Jesus. Now we are comparing one of the best pitchers of all time with Javy to make a point.

 

Im out

 

 

Dick, we'll just see if you ever get YOUR tickets.

[Dick Allen]

For more money.

2007 was the same. The difference, depending on 2007's performance was 2008. I'd rather pay him a few million more in 2008 if it meant he was lights out in 2007, and not have to commit the other $23 million yet. I could get burned, but history would indicate Vazquez continuing to be about average.

[Hideaway Lights]

Jesus. Now we are comparing one of the best pitchers of all time with Javy to make a point.

 

Im out

Dick, we'll just see if you ever get YOUR tickets.

 

Yeah, leave it to you to completely miss the point of bringing Martinez into the conversation.

 

Again, for those not quite as slow, playing for the Expos does not significantly impact your winning percentage necessarily.

 

Also, I can't wait to bump this thread midseason, even if I'm wrong.

[Gregory Pratt]

Being Pedro Martinez does not significantly impact your winning percentage.

Besides, the Expos of Pedro's time were better than Javier's.

[Dick Allen]

Being Pedro Martinez does not significantly impact your winning percentage.

Besides, the Expos of Pedro's time were better than Javier's.

You may be right, but when Vazquez was 5-15, his ERA was 6.06. Maybe he wasn't getting much help, but he wasn't exactly Cy Young on the mound. One reason a team is bad is because the pitcher was bad.

 

The 1998 Expos were bad but they had an interesting roster. Dustin Hermanson was 14-11 for them. They had Widger and Vlad Guerrero and Orlando Cabrera. Even Carl Pavano, and White Sox killer Mark Grudzdkdfjdjfkd fdslnik

Edited March 7, 2007 by Dick Allen

[Hideaway Lights]

the 2002 Expos were 83-79.

 

Vazquez was 10-13 for them.

[Wedge]

Something about "more years of Javier Vazquez" makes me want to put a gun to my head and pull the trigger, "fair market value" be damned.

[Dick Allen]

the 2002 Expos were 83-79.

 

Vazquez was 10-13 for them.

More importantly, the 2006 White Sox were 90-72. Vazquez was 11-12. His ERA has been above league average the majority of his career.

[Balta1701]

Something about "more years of Javier Vazquez" makes me want to put a gun to my head and pull the trigger, "fair market value" be damned.

If nothing else, it just became a lot easier to trade Javier Vazquez if we decide that a few more of these guys in AAA this year are ready for the big show.

[Soxbadger]

Did some one really post that .620 and .690 was not a significant difference in winning percentage?

 

If you add .07 to Javy's win percentage its .550

 

Which would be better than Garlands win %.

 

Not sure how you disproved my point, cause even an HOF suffered terribly from playing with the Expos.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Soxbadger

[Hideaway Lights]

Javier's games in which he got massive run support:

 

April 14th against Toronto. 13-7 loss (L). The Sox score 5 runs in the first three innings but it's not enough.

 

June 3rd against Texas. 8-6 win (W) . Javy gives up 11 hits and 5 earned in 6.1 innings, but the team bails him out by scoring 8.

 

June 25th against Houston. 10-9 loss (ND) . 9 earned runs and 10 hits in 6 innings pitched. Iguchi almost wins it by himself despite that.

 

July 1st against the Cubs. 8-6 win (ND) . Pierzynski's homer bails us out after Gload extends the inning.

 

July 30th at Baltimore. 8-7 loss (ND) . Sox break a 2 all tie to take a 4-2 lead in the top of the 6th inning, Baltimore takes a 5-4 lead in the bottom half because Vaz implodes.

 

So there were 5 games in which he got massive run support, and the team goes 2-3.

 

 

 

The team scored less than 2 runs in support of him a grand total of 6 times down the stretch.

 

 

Like I said, sort of evens out, huh?

 

 

 

 

Did some one really post that .620 and .690 was not a significant difference in winning percentage?

 

If you add .07 to Javy's win percentage its .550

 

Which would be better than Garlands win %.

 

Not sure how you disproved my point, cause even an HOF suffered terribly from playing with the Expos.

 

I think that Martinez's age might have had something to do with the fact he wasn't as dominant until later. Usually this is the case with most pitchers. I'll break down the rest later.

[Balta1701]

July 30th at Baltimore. 8-7 loss (ND) . Sox break a 2 all tie to take a 4-2 lead in the top of the 6th inning, Baltimore takes a 5-4 lead in the bottom half because Vaz implodes.

I'd like to add, because I remember this game...this is one of the games where Rob Mackowiak in CF did a HUGE amount of damage.

 

In inning 3, after a leadoff walk, Brandon Fahey hit a fly ball to center that Anderson could have had in his sleep. Because it turned into a hit, the O's had 1st & 2nd with nobody out instead of 1st and 1 out. That wound up turning into 1 run, and beyond that, had Vazquez throwing about 15-20 more pitches that inning than he should have had to. I wasn't surprised at all that Vazquez melted down later in the game, because of how hard he had to work in the 3rd. I bet you put Brian Anderson in CF in that game from the start, this one turns into a win.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Balta1701

[southsideirish71]

Javier's games in which he got massive run support:

 

April 14th against Toronto. 13-7 loss (L). The Sox score 5 runs in the first three innings but it's not enough.

 

June 3rd against Texas. 8-6 win (W) . Javy gives up 11 hits and 5 earned in 6.1 innings, but the team bails him out by scoring 8.

 

June 25th against Houston. 10-9 loss (ND) . 9 earned runs and 10 hits in 6 innings pitched. Iguchi almost wins it by himself despite that.

 

July 1st against the Cubs. 8-6 win (ND) . Pierzynski's homer bails us out after Gload extends the inning.

 

July 30th at Baltimore. 8-7 loss (ND) . Sox break a 2 all tie to take a 4-2 lead in the top of the 6th inning, Baltimore takes a 5-4 lead in the bottom half because Vaz implodes.

 

So there were 5 games in which he got massive run support, and the team goes 2-3.

The team scored less than 2 runs in support of him a grand total of 6 times down the stretch.

Like I said, sort of evens out, huh?

I think that Martinez's age might have had something to do with the fact he wasn't as dominant until later. Usually this is the case with most pitchers. I'll break down the rest later.

 

So Mr GM. What would you have done. Extend Buerhle for about 5 years at a good clip. Or trot Danks out next year, then Gio and Broadway out in 09. And had the rotation filled with kids and no vets outside of Contreras who is 60.

[RockRaines]

So Mr GM. What would you have done. Extend Buerhle for about 5 years at a good clip. Or trot Danks out next year, then Gio and Broadway out in 09. And had the rotation filled with kids and no vets outside of Contreras who is 60.

Probably something completely brilliant. We are all slower than Mr. No Plan.

[Friend of Nordhagen]

How does his love afair with Vaz cost us bmac. I understand the Young part, because he was traded for him. But bmac.

 

Hey, Southside. I'm referring to the fact that Mac pitched great down the stretch in 2005, only to be booted as the potential 5th starter for 2006 because KW traded for Javy. McCarthy never fit in the bullpen, and I seriously question whether he was put in a position to succeed in that position. Then Ozzie and Kenny got down on him (that's pretty clear), and off he went to Texas. Yeah, there's some assumptions in there, but I'm convinced that Brandon would have fared much better as a starter -- and, in fact, better than Vazquez.

 

(As for the trade of McCarthy to Texas, I think KW is full of it. When McCarthy was traded, the implication was that Danks's stuff made him a better fit for the Cell. Now all I hear is that Danks throws 89-92. That was McCarthy's velocity. So, Danks may become great (and Masset, too), and he's certainly left-handed, but what I heard Kenny say is not what I'm hearing now that Mr. Danks is actually in Tucson.)

[RockRaines]

(As for the trade of McCarthy to Texas, I think KW is full of it. When McCarthy was traded, the implication was that Danks's stuff made him a better fit for the Cell. Now all I hear is that Danks throws 89-92. That was McCarthy's velocity. So, Danks may become great (and Masset, too), and he's certainly left-handed, but what I heard Kenny say is not what I'm hearing now that Mr. Danks is actually in Tucson.)

Danks throws 90-94 ish. It is spring remember. And he is a much better groundball pitcher than BMAC who gives up a homerun about every other inning. Plus BMAC didnt fit in with this team, which is an automatic out in the clubhouse.

[Frankensteiner]

Because A. if he sucks in 2007 you can't get rid of him. And B. If I'm reading it correctly about $23 million more has been committed to the 2009 and 2010 combined payrolls. I would have rather rolled the dice and let him play this season out. If he came up big and you had to pay him $3 million-$4 million extra in 2008 so what, at least your paying for results seen. Either that or trade him for a package of minor leaguers and spend away at the free agent market. If Gio, Danks and Floyd are as good as KW says they are, I was in the room when he said Gio and Danks are the top 2 lefthanded pitching prospects in baseball, and we all know what he says about Floyd, you don't need to spend $12 million finding a mediocre starting pitcher. Garland and Contreras would still be around.

 

I thought that was the whole point of stockpiling young arms, so as to avoid overpaying for mediocre talent.

[Friend of Nordhagen]

Danks throws 90-94 ish. It is spring remember. And he is a much better groundball pitcher than BMAC who gives up a homerun about every other inning. Plus BMAC didnt fit in with this team, which is an automatic out in the clubhouse.

 

We'll see, Rock. Last I saw was that his Double-A pitching coach said he got it up there between 88-90.

[TLAK]

Yeah because it has nothing to do with 5-15 recrod as a rookie with the Expos.

 

In fact compare another pitcher who has played as many games with the Expos to Javy...

 

OK, 1998 Montreal Expos: Dustin Hermanson 14-11

 

Over the span of 1998 to 2003 Livian Herandez, Zach Day and Graeme Load were all over .500. Javier was -4.

[Friend of Nordhagen]

I thought that was the whole point of stockpiling young arms, so as to avoid overpaying for mediocre talent.

 

Yep. And one more thing. I said earlier that, much as I question it, the contract is movable. But let's be clear: Williams record "moving" these contracts is that we get far less than we start out thinking we will. So, yeah, the contract (and Javy's 6th inning meltdowns) can be traded, but I wouldn't expect much.

[southsideirish71]

Hey, Southside. I'm referring to the fact that Mac pitched great down the stretch in 2005, only to be booted as the potential 5th starter for 2006 because KW traded for Javy. McCarthy never fit in the bullpen, and I seriously question whether he was put in a position to succeed in that position. Then Ozzie and Kenny got down on him (that's pretty clear), and off he went to Texas. Yeah, there's some assumptions in there, but I'm convinced that Brandon would have fared much better as a starter -- and, in fact, better than Vazquez.

 

(As for the trade of McCarthy to Texas, I think KW is full of it. When McCarthy was traded, the implication was that Danks's stuff made him a better fit for the Cell. Now all I hear is that Danks throws 89-92. That was McCarthy's velocity. So, Danks may become great (and Masset, too), and he's certainly left-handed, but what I heard Kenny say is not what I'm hearing now that Mr. Danks is actually in Tucson.)

 

I am as big of a brandon supporter as you will find on the site. And I have a ton of autographed stuff from him, and was hoping that he would be here for a while.

 

 

The Buerhle situation probably did more to get this trade going than anything Bmac did. If you look at Danks, what does he remind you of. A slightly harder throwing Buerhle with a better curveball. Danks has been targetted for a few reasons. He is young/cheap/left handed.

 

The way a lot of teams get their young starters into the game is to use them in relief. Buerhle, Liriano, Santana, Papleboner, etc. These are all starters, or would be starters that all started in the relief role. These are all examples of guys who started their whole life, and had to adjust to warming up quick and throwing strikes out of the pen. It helps them work on a limited number of pitches, get some experience and work in game situations with a bit of pressure. Bmac didnt do to well in this. He missed in the strikezone, and then had to come over the plate with a fastball late in the count. Bmac uses his changeup as a pace changer to keep people off of his fastball. He had a hard time getting command of that at times, and the scouting report on Bmac is to lay off the curve, because he has a hard time throwing it for strikes. So basically you have eliminated 2 of his 3 pitches and you sit on the fastball.

 

McCarthy is gone because most likely he failed the litmus test, and because we could get Danks who is lefty and projects with similiar stuff.

[Frankensteiner]

If nothing else, it just became a lot easier to trade Javier Vazquez if we decide that a few more of these guys in AAA this year are ready for the big show.

 

Actually, it was a lot easier to trade Javier Vazquez when he didn't have all that guaranteed money on his contract. I mean, there are contracts that you know are bad as soon as they're signed (i.e. Gil Meche or Lilly) and I think this is one of them (even if it's a good bargain in relation to the rest of the overpriced 4th starter brigade).

 

Putting myself in any GMs shoes, if I was looking at finding a starting pitcher at the deadline, I'd much rather have Gil Meche with half a year/1.5 years remaining on his contract than Gil Meche with 4 years left. No one wants to pay for someone else's mistakes.