Sox Lockup Vazquez to Contract Ext.

[YASNY]

The fact that we have so many dissenting opinions on this signing tells me that it's probably in the proper range. Given that the current market is the current market, I think this is a pretty good deal by KW. I doubt that you'll see a market correction anytime soon. Boras, when talking recently about ARod's contract and whether or not he'd opt out, said that when ARod signed that deal baseball was a $30 billion per year industry, and now it's double that. I'm not sure about the numbers there, but the point is made.

 

As for the concern expressed about what Garland would feel about this, he signed his multiyear deal before the market exploded. He knows he's got another huge contract coming his way.

[G&T]

I'll throw this in here. Pretty good read, but nothing all that new.

 

FoxSports.com Interview With KW

[DBAHO]

It's an interesting deal and one I didn't expect to see done so early.

 

I am pro Vazquez. I think the Javier Vazquez we saw in the majority of the 2nd half when he was dominant, is the Vazquez we're more likely to see in the future.

 

The Sox coaching staff have obviously seen something with him, and recommended to KW to get him locked up, becuase they want him signed below market value below his numbers improve, which I think they will on his 2006 season at least.

 

So from that point of view, we could be saving a few million here by re-signing him, instead of him going to salary arbitration, and that could be the difference in re-signing a Dye, Buehrle or Iguchi in the upcoming off-season.

[Dick Allen]

Correct.

Excpet last year, where in the 2nd half he was the worst starting pitcher in the majors.

Not done what?

Listen, I am a Sox fan first and foremost. I don't like trying to come up with arguments why one of our players is bad. I just don't enjoy doing it. However, last season Mark let this team down more than anyone last season. After the ASB, he suddenly went from All-Star to AAA pitcher, and never showed flashes of coming out of it. He has done outstanding things for this franchise over his tenure, but going into 2007, I don't see why I should have a ton of faith in Mark.

If you use the argument that Buerhle was the worst starting pitcher in the majors the second half, and I do think you may be right, check Vazquez the second half of 2004. He may have been the worst starting pitcher in baseball. It was bad enough the Yankees thought he was hurt and couldn't wait to dump him. I can see where Buerhle in 2007 is a question mark, but it makes absolutely no sense that Vazquez is a sure bet. He's been like he was last year most of his career.

[Friend of Nordhagen]

If you use the argument that Buerhle was the worst starting pitcher in the majors the second half, and I do think you may be right, check Vazquez the second half of 2004. He may have been the worst starting pitcher in baseball. It was bad enough the Yankees thought he was hurt and couldn't wait to dump him. I can see where Buerhle in 2007 is a question mark, but it makes absolutely no sense that Vazquez is a sure bet. He's been like he was last year most of his career.

 

Put another way, if the Sox had signed a guy with Vazquez's numbers from another team, my guess is that most people here would wonder why we wouldn't put that money toward Buehrle (or, for that matter, extending Garland even further).

[southsider2k5]

I'll throw this in here. Pretty good read, but nothing all that new.

 

FoxSports.com Interview With KW

 

One really interesting thing for all of the conspiritalists who swear the Sox have a ton more money after the attendence increases... they are wrong

 

: A lot of people think your moves were driven by owner Jerry Reinsdorf, that he wanted to cut payroll . . .

 

A: He absolutely did not tell me to lower payroll. The payroll went up. The payroll since '05 has gone up about $28 million. The revenues haven't gone up that much, I guarantee you that.

 

It's kind of an unfair picture that's being painted. We're over $100 million. And while it's great to be able to pay some of the stars of the game, we did win (the 2005 World Series) on a $75 million payroll. Money is not the answer to one's issues. It's not.

[SoxFan562004]

I think it's an OK deal. Pitching has gotten expensive. FWIW, I think yesterday was a good example of why you can't go by the boxscore for ST games. I thought Javy threw better than his line yesterday.

 

The weird thing is the reaction I've heard by people like Mark Silverman is that since they've signed Javy, there's no chance to sign MB, basically it was one or the other. I know KW has said he would let his FAs get to the end of the year, but I believe he said that about other guys, and ended up signing them to extensions.

 

We'll see, ESPN radio said MBs agent is going to give them a proposal this week. I wouldn't be shocked if it's so far off from what KW wants that MB could move by the end of spring. (that's just a gut reaction/guess by me)

Edited March 7, 2007 by SoxFan562004

[southsider2k5]

Also on the deal, if you are Kenny Williams and the agent comes to you and offers his pitcher with a one million dollar payCUT, and wants to add only three years to his deal, you'd have to be borderline retarded not to do it. As much as pitching is overpriced in this day and age, you still have to have it. In a vaccuum this deal is terrible, but that is the price of doing business today. If you want a 30 start, 200 inning guy, you are going to pay at very least 10 million dollars a year. Throw on top of it the allure of the guys arm, and you are looking at a 5 year $65 million deal on the open market. Ridiculous, hell yeah it is. A fact of life? Yes again. At worst, he has solid trade value, because of his discount to free agents, and relative shortterm deal, unless his arm falls off.

[Wedge]

I thought Javy threw better than his line yesterday.

 

That is his epitaph.

 

[Y2HH]

Haven't had my chance to chime in here yet...

 

I like the deal considering the current market combined with the potential we know he has. The reason why is, well...I have a feeling Vazquez is going to have a break out season for us. I'm not sure why, I just have a feeling.

 

Last time I had a feeling like this? 2005.

 

I had the funny feeling the Sox were better than people said they were in 2005 -- so I laid down a bet they'd win the AL pennant in March of 2005.

 

I won.

[Dick Allen]

So because Vazquez had a bad half 3 years ago, he is just as much a question as Buerhle? Sorry, I don't buy that. While some try and make it out that Vazquez was the antichrist, as I pointed out, he had a better season than Mark, pretty much across the board.

 

Didn't you just post this?

After the 2006 Mark had, most importantly the half to close out the season, why is he any more of a sure bet than Vazquez. After all, how he had done the last 6 seasons should be no concern of yours, right?

My point was it was pretty irrelavant what Vazquez did in the late 90's. Buerhle had 1 half of a bad year, and has been the most consistent White Sox starter his entire career except for another real bad stretch in 2003 which he recovered from nicely. Vazquez was on the AL All Star team in 2004 and has been mediocre at best since. That's 2 1/2 seasons. You just said Buerhle was the worst starting pitcher in the league the second half of last season, and I tend to agree with you. Spouting off that Vazquez was a better pitcher in 2006 really isn't saying much. Vazquez was bad the second half of 2004, very mediocre in 2005 and very mediocre in 2006. If that earns you a $34.5 million extension, KW better stop crying about money.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

I just hope its not Vazquez and the rookies next year

[ScottyDo]

Point taken. But I think Javier is much more a risk to be signed than Buerhle, based on what I said. Buerhle had a bad year, but overall he's been consistent, whereas Javier has not, unless you mean consistently dissapointing.

i dunno, i kinda see where KW is coming from on this one. Mostly because buehrle will never overpower hitters with his stuff. He's a finesse pitcher and without that pinpoint control he has nothing. Vazquez will have the stuff he's got for years to come, presumably. I mean he's not gonna forget how to throw that wicked slider or 2-seamer. granted, he's done nothing to amaze past the 6th inning but it's the same old stuff vs. control debate. none of this is meant to impugn buehrle's curveball or his ability to come back, i think there's a good chance he will bounce back well. he's just gotta be more careful with his first pitch

[Baines3]

I have never been a Vazquez fan, so I guess we're stuck with him.

[harfman77]

I really like the deal, you lock him up for about the same money he is currently making, and if you really are expecting a big year from him you have to lock him up before he has the numbers to ask for ridiculous money. With all the money spent on pitchers up north who are not any better than Javy, this was a great deal in the current market.

[southsideirish71]

Dumb cub fans are calling up the score to whine and b**** that we should complain about them paying for their pitching when Lilly and Marquis are much better pitchers than Vazquez. They are stupid.

[Friend of Nordhagen]

That is his epitaph.

 

 

Totally hilarious.

[greg775]

This guy is garbage and should get 5th starter money, anything more is a waist of money.

 

That's a little harsh. He isn't garbage.

He is getting fifth starter money, isn't he?

I trust our GM and scouts on this one. They obviously think the guy is better than Freddie, better

than a lot of four and five starters in the league and worth it.

I don't think they'd just throw away the money.

I do hope Oz and Coop and KW make a decision EARLY this season.

If Vazzy is just a six inning pitcher, then make him that and get his ass out of the game

before he implodes.

He looked unhittable for 5 innings at times last year.

Why let him go 7 if he's going to get rocked in inning No. 7??

[TLAK]

I have never been a Vazquez fan, so I guess we're stuck with him.

 

I'm with you. Freddy Garcia was my favorite pitcher and they got rid of him. Then they sign my least favorite one.

[Colorado Sox Fan]

When I first saw this on the ESPN ticker I was shocked, but I get the logic. Replacing him will cost more in the future. As for MB, he needs to show me the second half of last year was an aberration. If he does, then I pay him the going rate.

[VAfan]

After 280+ posts, let me add my two cents.

 

I didn't like the trade for Javy Vazquez in the first place (see below), even though I understood why Kenny made the move. At the time, neither Garland nor Contreras had signed their 3-year extensions, whereas Javy was locked in through 2008. Javy had a history of being able to throw 200 innings, and I'm sure Cooper thought there was some considerable upside in his lively arm. We'd turned Contreras around, after all, and finally gotten Garland into a zone where he was much more than a .500 pitcher. Plus, the Yanks were cutting Javy's cost to around $8-9 million/year, and having a reliable 5th starter who could eat 200 innings and do no worse than .500 was probably worth that.

 

The extension was offered for the exact same reasons. Buerhle is not signed and will almost certainly walk. Contreras regressed dramatically after getting some small injuries. And Garland is good for only a couple more years before he may bolt for a better deal. Kenny has brought back a lot of young arms, but you can't expect to phase in more than one of these guys per year. Remember how long it took Garland to get off the .500 plateau?

 

The trouble is, for the Sox' plan to work, JV has to become more than a .500 5th starter. The new kid gets to fill that role. JV has to fill Freddie Garcia's role at least and go at least 15-10, 4.25 ERA. If he doesn't, we can probably kiss the playoffs goodbye again because we play in an extremely competitive division.

 

It doesn't matter whether JV's contract is market value, or provides stability. The point of playing baseball is to win the World Series. If JV doesn't produce like a #3 starter during the life of this deal, the plan is not going to work. We're going to remain a good team, but ultimately a team unable to repeat our 2005 miracle year.

 

I would say there is still a possibility that Cooper will get Javy turned around. Frankly, if Ozzie had managed him last year by yanking him after 5 and going with McCarthy, he might have been that pitcher last year. So there is a possibility JV will produce like a 3rd starter should. But I wouldn't say it is more likely than not. I'd give him about a 30% chance. If he does it during the life of this contract, then this extension will have been a good move. If not, then we would have been better off using the money to re-sign Jermaine Dye. Because if all JV does is limp along at .500 with a high-4s ERA, we probably could have gotten that from one of the young arms that will be sitting in Charlotte, and for a lot less money.

 

P.S. The reason I didn't like JV's signing in the first place is I agree with Dick Allen that it ended up hurting us big time last year, and potentially into the future. Chris Young could become Mike Cameron #2 with better plate discipline. And I'd rate the chances of that happening as significantly higher than the prospects for JV to become a consistent 15-10 #3 starter. Among all of our outfield prospects, Young was the one I always thought was the best -- by far. Indeed, I'm not sure ANY of our other prospects -- Anderson, Sweeney, Owens, et al -- will ever be even average ML ballplayers. I think Chris Young, however, will become a star. And we really need ML outfielders at the moment, because we only have one -- Jermaine Dye -- and he's going to walk next season in part b/c we won't be able to devote an extra $5 million/year keeping him around. That money could have come from replacing JV with one of our young arms.

 

But the other thing the Javy deal cost us in 2006 was a screwed up bullpen, and this really sunk our season. McCarthy certainly could have given us as much as JV gave us in the 5th starter's role. El Duque likely would have been better than McCarthy in long relief. And Vizcaino would have shored up short relief when our only veteran, Cliff Politte, turned up with a bum arm.

 

*****************

Time will tell whether this was a good deal. If JV starts winning at a .600 clip like a #3 starter should, then it will have been a good investment. If JV continues on recent trends, then it won't have been b/c we have enough quality young arms to find another .500 guy among them. Either way, KW needs to spend some time figuring out how to correct the mistake he made in trading Chris Young because our outfield, even with Jermaine, is below par. Without Jermaine, it's going to be a disaster.

Edited March 8, 2007 by VAfan

[Hideaway Lights]

When I first saw this on the ESPN ticker I was shocked, but I get the logic. Replacing him will cost more in the future. As for MB, he needs to show me the second half of last year was an aberration. If he does, then I pay him the going rate.

 

 

In other words, you see the logic in giving 11 million per year to a guy who's been a total s***bag for 75% of his career, but one bad halfseason (in six full seasons) for Buehrle changes your entire opinion of him?

 

Makes total sense to me.

[Chisoxfn]

When I first saw this on the ESPN ticker I was shocked, but I get the logic. Replacing him will cost more in the future. As for MB, he needs to show me the second half of last year was an aberration. If he does, then I pay him the going rate.

A 91 MPH fastball in spring training was all I needed to see. I have full faith in Buehrle being the guy we all have known and loved as Sox fans and not the guy that was absolutely downright abysmal over the 2nd half of last season.

[southsider2k5]

A 91 MPH fastball in spring training was all I needed to see. I have full faith in Buehrle being the guy we all have known and loved as Sox fans and not the guy that was absolutely downright abysmal over the 2nd half of last season.

 

MB was hitting 91 on the gun?

 

Let me be the first to say this... 20 wins.

 

Book it.

[Dick Allen]

When I was in Tucson last year, I was sitting right behind homeplate and could see the gun they had set up there. I am not kidding when I say Buerhle was topping out at 80, and this was the last week or so of spring training.