Sox Lockup Vazquez to Contract Ext.

[Dick Allen]

I absolutely love this deal. Even considering Vazquez's struggles, he would have earned a substantially higher amount of money/years based on last year's statistics alone. Have we not seen what teams offer for power capable arms? Now imagine a powerful arm capable of avoiding injury and providing innings....

 

Honestly, how can anyone oppose this contract extension? I'll just have to assume -- without physically viewing the previous messages -- that EVERYONE realizes this is a good signing.

 

Yes, there exists risk. Most extended contracts for pitchers do. However, even with a collection of possible SP prospects, we need stability within the rotation. More importantly, someone capable of sustaining the "ace" moniker.

 

I'm not foolish enough to believe he'll mysteriously revert to Montreal days for several seasons. However, considering how he hasn't been in one place for two consecutive seasons since 2004, I'm looking forward to this season.

 

Oh, and LOLLERZ at Rotoworld.

So? No mention of how it's a fair deal in comparison to other pitchers?

 

I don't know why the Sox would extend a guy now, considering they don't like to go more than 3 years with pitchers, and its cost them chances to sign good ones, who they have under control for 2 years and has not been a very mediocre pitcher for much of his career. I'd much rather take my chances on him having this breakout year a lot of people seem to think he'll have and paying him a couple more million for 2008, than signing him and taking the more likely chance that what you see is what you get through 2010.

 

 

Did any of the people who think this is a great signing laugh at the Cubs when they signed Ted Lilly?

[hitlesswonder]

I absolutely love this deal. Even considering Vazquez's struggles, he would have earned a substantially higher amount of money/years based on last year's statistics alone. Have we not seen what teams offer for power capable arms? Now imagine a powerful arm capable of avoiding injury and providing innings....

 

Oh, and LOLLERZ at Rotoworld.

So? No mention of how it's a fair deal in comparison to other pitchers?

 

I didn't read through all 10 pages -- are there people who think it's a bad deal?

 

I'll once again go ahead and agree with you. The signing is fine. It's less than what Ted Lilly got, and I think Vazquez is worth more than Lilly. The # years is perfect. Most of all, it means the Sox won't have to go with a rotation of 64 year-old Contreras and 4 young pitchers. And maybe I'm an idiot but I think Vazquez can be 4.5 ERA pitcher in the AL. That plus the innings makes it a good deal. And, I don't know what the limited no trade will be, but that contract would be easy to move to a contender if the Sox decide to rebuild.

 

Rotoworld's take is moronic. Look at the market before saying something is a lot of money.

[Frankensteiner]

I absolutely love this deal. Even considering Vazquez's struggles, he would have earned a substantially higher amount of money/years based on last year's statistics alone. Have we not seen what teams offer for power capable arms? Now imagine a powerful arm capable of avoiding injury and providing innings....

 

I agree with this partially. On one hand, we just signed a starter to a below market contract. On the other hand, it's a market for mediocre pitchers who should never be getting those type of contracts in the first place.

 

Yeah, we can talk about all his 'tools' but Vazquez is a guy who has never been equal to the sum of his parts.

 

I'm on the fence with this as with the rest of Williams' moves this off-season. But I do think there's better ways to spend $35 million.

[Dick Allen]

And that he took 3 years...and that he took a hometown discount...and that he has a history of some success...and that when he was with a team more than one whole year in a row, he was pretty good....

Buehrle had the opportunity to do the same thing and wants to check his value on an open market. Fine. go do that. Vazquez would rather pitch for the White Sox.

The argument that he has to be with a team for more than one season is about as weak of excuse for his struggles as I have ever seen. He started out great with the Yankees, in fact I think he made the All Star team. But he could get anyone out the second half of 2004. He also had a couple of mediocre years in Montreal after he had been there a while.

[southsideirish71]

The contract is fair for the market, and it's probably moveable. But for me, it's just chasing bad money. I didn't like trading Young for Vazquez, I didn't like putting McCarthy in the bullpen because of Vazquez, and I don't like being on a longer hook for Vazquez. Maybe he'll do better. Maybe he won't. But Williams's love affair with this guy has effectively cost us the top two prospects in our system (Young and McCarthy). He better do more than pitch 200 innings with a 4.7 ERA. Because he's cost more than the money he's being paid.

 

How does his love afair with Vaz cost us bmac. I understand the Young part, because he was traded for him. But bmac.

 

 

 

As much as Javy frustrated me with his 6th inning crap last year, this is an awsome signing. The frustrating thing, is he would completely own a team, and then would unravel. The talent is obviously there, he just needs to either keep his mechanics in check past the 5th inning, or his mind in check as far as focus. If he can learn either of those two he can be a steal.

[Rowand44]

Did any of the people who think this is a great signing laugh at the Cubs when they signed Ted Lilly?

I'm not going to call anyone out, but yes.

[Flash Tizzle]

I don't know why the Sox would extend a guy now, considering they don't like to go more than 3 years with pitchers, and its cost them chances to sign good ones, who they have under control for 2 years and has not been a very mediocre pitcher for much of his career. I'd much rather take my chances on him having this breakout year a lot of people seem to think he'll have and paying him a couple more million for 2008, than signing him and taking the more likely chance that what you see is what you get through 2010.

Did any of the people who think this is a great signing laugh at the Cubs when they signed Ted Lilly?

This organization had to weight their options.

 

We're extending Vazquez now after a fairly mediocre season. If Williams waits until 2008, perhaps Vazquez doesn't significantly improve and we have a better idea of what to do with him. Yet, if he has a breakout season, we're paying 14-16 million in arbitration and the likelihood of extending him with a contract comparable to today is impossible.

[Dick Allen]

This organization had to weight their options.

 

We're extending Vazquez now after a fairly mediocre season. If Williams waits until 2008, perhaps Vazquez doesn't significantly improve and we have a better idea of what to do with him. Yet, if he has a breakout season, we're paying 14-16 million in arbitration and the likelihood of extending him with a contract comparable to today is impossible.

Then they could always trade him.

[Flash Tizzle]

I'm not going to call anyone out, but yes.

I know I didn't.

 

It appeared like I avoided the issue in Dick Allen's question.

[mshugrue1323]

Has anyone mentioned how Vazquez is probably the worst out of buehrle, garland, contreras and him? why extend him when these three are much better. that being said, if this is a sign kw is actualy going to spend some money on these pitchers, iguchi, crede and dye, i'm all for it. vazquez is the least important of kw's expiring contracts.

[Balta1701]

Then they could always trade him.

The value of an average pitcher with 3 years on his contract >> the value of an average pitcher with 1 year on his contract.

[Flash Tizzle]

Then they could always trade him.

We'll still have Garland and Contreras to trade.

[ptatc]

How does his love afair with Vaz cost us bmac. I understand the Young part, because he was traded for him. But bmac.

As much as Javy frustrated me with his 6th inning crap last year, this is an awsome signing. The frustrating thing, is he would completely own a team, and then would unravel. The talent is obviously there, he just needs to either keep his mechanics in check past the 5th inning, or his mind in check as far as focus. If he can learn either of those two he can be a steal.

 

This is the same concern many people had with Garland. People wanted him traded because he couldn't go deep in games. May be the Sox figure they can help JV with this also.

 

For the price and length of contract, it is a great deal for the sox.

 

I know most stat heads, believe wins are useless for pitcher's stats but I go back to my usual point. Until the league put the teams with the best stats in the playoffs wins are still the most important thing in baseball. Wins may not tell you how well the pitcher is pitching but it can tell you how valuable they are to the team.

[Flash Tizzle]

Has anyone mentioned how Vazquez is probably the worst out of buehrle, garland, contreras and him? why extend him when these three are much better. that being said, if this is a sign kw is actualy going to spend some money on these pitchers, iguchi, crede and dye, i'm all for it. vazquez is the least important of kw's expiring contracts.

Extending Vazquez really doesn't change anything these next two seasons. He'll have, what, a ~ million increase next season? If Williams is intent on resigning any of the names mentioned in your post it shouldn't matter one bit.

 

I don't believe we'd have a chance of resigning Buehrle or Garland to deal below three years. As for Contreras, he's definitely a person I wouldn't even risk a two year extension with considering his age and possible injury concerns.

[Chisoxfn]

Wow, first time I've logged on since early this morning and I log on to a very pleasant surprise. This seems like a more than fair deal for both sides and I'm really glad we have another pitcher signed. This means if we want to we will have at least 3 of our veteran starting pitchers back in 08 which is a major plus, as it means that if one our 5th starters pan out this year than we have them in the rotation and are just adding one spot and if one of them doesn't than Kenny only has to add one or so more starters as opposed to 2 or so.

[Dick Allen]

Extending Vazquez really doesn't change anything these next two seasons. He'll have, what, a ~ million increase next season? If Williams is intent on resigning any of the names mentioned in your post it shouldn't matter one bit.

 

I don't believe we'd have a chance of resigning Buehrle or Garland to deal below three years. As for Contreras, he's definitely a person I wouldn't even risk a two year extension with considering his age and possible injury concerns.

It does change the amount of money available to make offers on one of the better free agent classes in a long time.

[Chisoxfn]

All this talk about Buehrle ... wonder what Garland thinks of this deal.

 

isn't he outta here after 2008?

Ya, my guess is the Sox will talk to him about extending at some point this season if he's doing well and if he is pitching and Buehrle is pitching well they probably offer them each simliar deals and see which one bites (making either of them the likely highest paid pitchers on the staff, albeit not by much more than Javy and company).

[Balta1701]

It does change the amount of money available to make offers on one of the better free agent classes in a long time.

How does signing Vazquez for less than he'd get in arbitration mean that the White Sox have less money available? The only way to free up more money would have been to not offer Vazquez arbitration and therefore let him walk with no compensation, at which point we very well might be playing the market for a $12 million a year mediocre starting pitcher somewhere.

[Chisoxfn]

How does signing Vazquez for less than he'd get in arbitration mean that the White Sox have less money available? The only way to free up more money would have been to not offer Vazquez arbitration and therefore let him walk with no compensation, at which point we very well might be playing the market for a $12 million a year mediocre starting pitcher somewhere.

It doesn't, what it does is mean barring any serious injuries we won't have a completely decimated rotation a year from now. We could have been facing some really ugly prospects a year from today if we weren't able to get at least one of our vets signed to an extension (hopefully one more during the year) which means we will only have 1-2 and a max of 3 rotation spots opening up over the next few years if all goes fine (and to me thats more than enough spots to give our young guys an opportunity).

 

Remember prospects don't instantly pan out and put up numbers and planning on counting on more than one raw pitcher in the rotation (before you account for injuries) is just a bad idea for a contending team and now I think we'll be able to prevent that.

[Kalapse]

How does signing Vazquez for less than he'd get in arbitration mean that the White Sox have less money available? The only way to free up more money would have been to not offer Vazquez arbitration and therefore let him walk with no compensation, at which point we very well might be playing the market for a $12 million a year mediocre starting pitcher somewhere.

And if the Sox really want to they could always deal Vazquez after the '08 season to free up some available cash for free agency and this way they'll be trading a player with 3 years left on his deal as opposed to a guy who would only be arb eligible and looking at a $14M deal. I don't see this happening but it's certainly a possibility.

[Dick Allen]

How does signing Vazquez for less than he'd get in arbitration mean that the White Sox have less money available? The only way to free up more money would have been to not offer Vazquez arbitration and therefore let him walk with no compensation, at which point we very well might be playing the market for a $12 million a year mediocre starting pitcher somewhere.

Because A. if he sucks in 2007 you can't get rid of him. And B. If I'm reading it correctly about $23 million more has been committed to the 2009 and 2010 combined payrolls. I would have rather rolled the dice and let him play this season out. If he came up big and you had to pay him $3 million-$4 million extra in 2008 so what, at least your paying for results seen. Either that or trade him for a package of minor leaguers and spend away at the free agent market. If Gio, Danks and Floyd are as good as KW says they are, I was in the room when he said Gio and Danks are the top 2 lefthanded pitching prospects in baseball, and we all know what he says about Floyd, you don't need to spend $12 million finding a mediocre starting pitcher. Garland and Contreras would still be around.

Edited March 6, 2007 by Dick Allen

[RockRaines]

This organization had to weight their options.

 

We're extending Vazquez now after a fairly mediocre season. If Williams waits until 2008, perhaps Vazquez doesn't significantly improve and we have a better idea of what to do with him. Yet, if he has a breakout season, we're paying 14-16 million in arbitration and the likelihood of extending him with a contract comparable to today is impossible.

s***, if Flash likes this deal, its even more ridiculous to me why anyone cant.

 

Freddy is going to get 14+ in free agency, Javy in arb would have had most likely 13 or so. Even without the fact that he is capable of being a top of the rotation guy, this is just a great business deal plain and simple.

 

Because A. if he sucks in 2007 you can't get rid of him. And B. If I'm reading it correctly about $23 million more has been committed to the 2009 and 2010 combined payrolls. I would have rather rolled the dice and let him play this season out. If he came up big and you had to pay him $3 million-$4 million extra in 2008 so what, at least your paying for results seen. Either that or trade him for a package of minor leaguers and spend away at the free agent market. If Gio, Danks and Floyd are as good as KW says they are, I was in the room when he said Gio and Danks are the top 2 lefthanded pitching prospects in baseball, and we all know what he says about Floyd, you don't need to spend $12 million finding a mediocre starting pitcher. Garland and Contreras would still be around.

Spend away in the free agent market? You are mad at adding payroll at a decent cost the next couple of years, but you want us to "spend" in the free agent market? Do you know how much money we would have to commit to get a decent veteran pitcher in this market? You are talking 5+ years at at least 13 million per year. Which is locking up every more money in the future.

 

It does change the amount of money available to make offers on one of the better free agent classes in a long time.

Yeah, now we have more money available next year.

[Dick Allen]

s***, if Flash likes this deal, its even more ridiculous to me why anyone cant.

 

Freddy is going to get 14+ in free agency, Javy in arb would have had most likely 13 or so. Even without the fact that he is capable of being a top of the rotation guy, this is just a great business deal plain and simple.

Spend away in the free agent market? You are mad at adding payroll at a decent cost the next couple of years, but you want us to "spend" in the free agent market? Do you know how much money we would have to commit to get a decent veteran pitcher in this market? You are talking 5+ years at at least 13 million per year. Which is locking up every more money in the future.

You have signed Mr. Mediocre to a 3 year extension, which is basically a 4 year contract. Why lock yourself into mediocrity? I thought everyone said there would be a market correction anyway? I'd rather pay someone $13 million-$15 million a year who wins, than pledge all that money to Javier Vazquez. If the White Sox can commit over $40 million the next 4 seasons to Javier Vazquez, there is no reason Dye or Buerhle or Crede or for that matter (and I'm glad he's gone) Garcia should go elsewhere.

[RockRaines]

You have signed Mr. Mediocre to a 3 year extension, which is basically a 4 year contract. Why lock yourself into mediocrity? I thought everyone said there would be a market correction anyway? I'd rather pay someone $13 million-$15 million a year who wins, than pledge all that money to Javier Vazquez. If the White Sox can commit over $40 million the next 4 seasons to Javier Vazquez, there is no reason Dye or Buerhle or Crede or for that matter (and I'm glad he's gone) Garcia should go elsewhere.

Thats where you are thinking far too linear. We have locked ourselves into a very affordable contract with a pitcher that costs more on the open market. If he does not perform like we want him to, we have assured ourselves a very movable contract. Because he is a bargain, and because of his talent, we can deal him or keep him depending on our needs. It is a much better strategy than letting him go for nothing and spending 14-15 million over 5-6 years on a free agent just because they are one of the only ones available. THAT contract is very stationary.

[Dick Allen]

Thats where you are thinking far too linear. We have locked ourselves into a very affordable contract with a pitcher that costs more on the open market. If he does not perform like we want him to, we have assured ourselves a very movable contract. Because he is a bargain, and because of his talent, we can deal him or keep him depending on our needs. It is a much better strategy than letting him go for nothing and spending 14-15 million over 5-6 years on a free agent just because they are one of the only ones available. THAT contract is very stationary.

I don't find the contract to be a bargain. That's where I totally disagree. If Vazquez puts up another season like the last 2 1/2, there would be no team interested in him at that price. You may think its a bargain now, but will you feel that way in 2009 or 2010? I don't think so, but admittedly I have never been a fan of Vazquez.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Dick Allen