Levine reports Sox and Buehrle to talk

[Flash Tizzle]

This is one reason I like KW. Use all of the information available. Don't get caught up in only one aspect of evaluation. He isn't always right, nobody is. But he also make gutsy moves which you need to do to win. It's awfully difficult to win being conservative.

How exactly did Williams use all available information before trading for Floyd? Because, when I look at his minor league numbers, I don't see anything of value.

 

I completely agree that using everything -- from statistics to scouting -- should be considered for player evaluation. However, when one of those options seem to portray Floyd as an enigma; now you're counting on your scouts to notice something that nearly everything quantifiable suggests doesn't exist. There should be some level of agreement between the two factions. Such as the scouts noticing Floyd has a great arm, and the numbers -- at some point in his past -- indicating as much.

 

Sure, such a risk is acceptable when signing someone to one year deal; but it shouldn't be when attempting to collect the largest cache of talent for a departing starter. No doubt it was 'gutsy' acquiring Floyd when perhaps an additional arm, or another player more projectable, could have been included. I've said before, I believe if Fabio Castro were included in the deal Philadelphia would have approved it. His upside is, at the least, equal to Floyd. At worst, he replaces Logan in our bullpen.

 

If Floyd is unable to win the 5th starters position this spring, that'll be enough evidence to prove acquiring him was a mistake. I'm almost certain that Williams' plan after the Garcia deal didn't revolve around Floyd pitching in AAA, perhaps replacing an injured/ineffecitve starter in 2007, only to ultimately be in the bullpen for his White Sox career. This is where I could see him heading if his spring training doesn't end well.

Edited March 8, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[Flash Tizzle]

So if the 24 year old Floyd has a bad 14 innings in meaningless games this spring, the trade was a mistake? Interesting....

(sigh) No.

 

If he doesn't win the position, where's he going to end up? Charlotte.

 

Once in Charlotte, when will he be promoted? When injury and/or ineffectiveness sidelines another pitcher.

 

Do you believe he realistically stands a chance of outperforming Gonzalez or Danks in Charlotte, in regards to a potential 2008 opening? I don't.

 

Either he wins the position and produces, or doesn't and has to wait until something happens to starters/bullpen arms going North.

 

Oh, and don't act as if people won't be doing the exact opposite and vindicate the deal if Floyd pitches well after 14 meaningless spring training innings. I won't even argue with those who do, considering my position. It's important for Floyd to pitch well EVERY pitch considering this is his tryout. He isn't guaranteed a slot in the rotation.

[DBAHO]

(sigh) No.

 

If he doesn't win the position, where's he going to end up? Charlotte.

 

Once in Charlotte, when will he be promoted? When injury and/or ineffectiveness sidelines another pitcher.

 

Do you believe he realistically stands a chance of outperforming Gonzalez or Danks in Charlotte, in regards to a potential 2008 opening? I don't.

Well if Haeger does win the spot and then doesn't perform, I assume Floyd will be given the oppurtunity as the 5th starter.

 

So yeah I mean it is important he does well in ST (although I don't really take into account what anybody does in ST because of the conditions and well it's the pre-season so I don't think you're going to try 100%), but it's not the end of the line for him if he doesn't.

 

If the Sox find themselves out of contention at the deadline you could see SP's like Buehrle moved to give the likes of Floyd, Danks and Gonzalez a shot if they're down in Charlotte and doing well, although it's a hard environment for a pitcher to produce really good numbers.

 

With Floyd, it's not going to happen overnight with him, because he's young and still has to go through the maturity process. Still I'm hoping we see some good progress with him at least this season, in terms of numbers whether he's in Charlotte or (hopefully) Chicago.

[Dick Allen]

Buerhle's agent today on whitesox.com:

 

"In terms of how we value Mark and where the market in general would value Mark ... I mean Gil Meche signed at five years [with Kansas City for $55 million], and Barry Zito signed for seven [with San Francisco for $126 million]. Mark has been one of the most durable pitchers in the last decade and that kind of speaks for itself. "

 

I think a 4 year contract wouldn't even be considered at this point, and if it was, they would have to really jack up the price.

Edited March 8, 2007 by Dick Allen

[Heads22]

Gil Meche is just gonna f*** things up for everyone, isn't he?

[jackie hayes]

Gil Meche is just gonna f*** things up for everyone, isn't he?

That's his mo.

[Heads22]

 

f*** y'all. All y'all.

[SnB]

LOL! Even I've been burned by that. Yes indeed. I have my 2004 All-Star Game jersey featuring... Loaiza. It arrived in the mail literally one week after he was traded.

 

Although: thank God I never did get that Takatsu jersey I wanted! And prior to '06 I was this/close to getting a... McCarthy jersey.

 

Phew.

 

So far I seem safe with my A.J. WS jersey.

 

Back to topic. WHat a wonderful, wonderful surprise it would be to see Buehrle resigned when we all assumed he was gone for sure. That would be a nice start to '07.

i was *this close to getting a roberto alomar jersey in 03

[TLAK]

Buerhle's agent today on whitesox.com:

 

"In terms of how we value Mark and where the market in general would value Mark ... I mean Gil Meche signed at five years [with Kansas City for $55 million], and Barry Zito signed for seven [with San Francisco for $126 million]. Mark has been one of the most durable pitchers in the last decade and that kind of speaks for itself. "

 

I think a 4 year contract wouldn't even be considered at this point, and if it was, they would have to really jack up the price.

 

 

 

A three year extension would set him and his family up for life no matter what happens this year, I mean his arm could fall off. And if he's healthy and productive then he gets another bite at the big money apple at age 31. When you factor in all the risks on both sides three years is not far fetched.

[3E8]

Is it fair to use Meche's contract to set values in the market? It should be obvious to everyone that Kansas City isn't going to ink any sought-after free agent pitcher at fair and especially not under value. They haven't won more than 65 games five of the last six years. How the hell else are they supposed to draw a free agent into what has been a mess of an organization in Kansas City other than throw an assload of money at them? If an agent's starting point to me was" Gil Meche is an $11M/year pitcher, let's work from there", I would show them the door.

[Flash Tizzle]

-Danks looks to project as a solid LHP with a low 90's fastball, and great off speed stuff. Looks like Kenny got a Buehrle clone on purpose....

If that's his plan, I hope the next item is looking for the clone of a legitimate ace when the next veteran is delt. But hey, atleast we won't have to worry about producing another Buehrle for 7 more years.

"In terms of how we value Mark and where the market in general would value Mark ... I mean Gil Meche signed at five years [with Kansas City for $55 million], and Barry Zito signed for seven [with San Francisco for $126 million]. Mark has been one of the most durable pitchers in the last decade and that kind of speaks for itself. "

 

If you average out the two salaries Buehrle's agent mentioned, a figure of 6yrs/95mil is the result. Basically, about 16 million a season.

 

Let someone else pay that.

[Balta1701]

So would a 5 year deal, which is what teams will be lining up to give him if he has a normal "Buehrle" type year.

Well, there are 2 sides to this way of thinking, if your goal is to make as much money as possible. The first option is to get the longest contract for the most money that you can right now. That's the Zito method.

 

The other option is to count on the continuing growth of contracts. It's more of a gamble if you can't stay healthy, but if you can, then it seems to be worth it for players to take the shorter overall contract with more $ per year if it also gets them onto the Free Agent market again.

 

It's actually pretty hard for me to come up with an example of a Free Agent pitcher who's succeeded, but this is the thinking behind Rafael Furcal's deal with the Dodgers. The Cubs offered him more years but less money per year, the Dodgers offered fewer years but more money per year, he took the Dodgers offer, figuring that if he stayed healthy he could get another contract for even more after a few years.

[TLAK]

So would a 5 year deal, which is what teams will be lining up to give him if he has a normal "Buehrle" type year.

 

But if gets hurt this year he gets nothing, nada, null. They have to consider that ristk. Thats all I was saying.

[ptatc]

How exactly did Williams use all available information before trading for Floyd? Because, when I look at his minor league numbers, I don't see anything of value.

 

I completely agree that using everything -- from statistics to scouting -- should be considered for player evaluation. However, when one of those options seem to portray Floyd as an enigma; now you're counting on your scouts to notice something that nearly everything quantifiable suggests doesn't exist. There should be some level of agreement between the two factions. Such as the scouts noticing Floyd has a great arm, and the numbers -- at some point in his past -- indicating as much.

 

Sure, such a risk is acceptable when signing someone to one year deal; but it shouldn't be when attempting to collect the largest cache of talent for a departing starter. No doubt it was 'gutsy' acquiring Floyd when perhaps an additional arm, or another player more projectable, could have been included. I've said before, I believe if Fabio Castro were included in the deal Philadelphia would have approved it. His upside is, at the least, equal to Floyd. At worst, he replaces Logan in our bullpen.

 

If Floyd is unable to win the 5th starters position this spring, that'll be enough evidence to prove acquiring him was a mistake. I'm almost certain that Williams' plan after the Garcia deal didn't revolve around Floyd pitching in AAA, perhaps replacing an injured/ineffecitve starter in 2007, only to ultimately be in the bullpen for his White Sox career. This is where I could see him heading if his spring training doesn't end well.

 

I think the target of that deal was Gio. People still seem to think KW went after Floyd and Gio got thrown in. I think it was the other way around. So for the secondary pitcher in the deal it is worth the chance. Yes, Floyd is closer to contributing but is not the best pitcher in the deal.

There is no way I take Fabio Castro. He will be nothing more than a decent middle reliever. He have plenty of options for relief in that role. He went for a starter with unrealized talent. Could be big could be a bust. This is type of player many people think we should draft. Big talent/big risk. He is 24,he was worth the risk. Even if he is in AAA for awhile, the payoff could be worth it.

[jackie hayes]

It's actually pretty hard for me to come up with an example of a Free Agent pitcher who's succeeded...

Add in the fact that this was, bar none, the most astonishing offseason for mediocre starters, and the fact that the Sox aren't going to offer the moon even in a 3-year deal, and...scene!

[CanOfCorn]

Add in the fact that this was, bar none, the most astonishing offseason for mediocre starters, and the fact that the Sox aren't going to offer the moon even in a 3-year deal, and...scene!

 

Two things: Who is Buehrle's agent?

 

And, do you guys think Buehrle is more of a stability guy or a money guy? And when I say stability, I mean, same team, not more years. I think he should go on the open market, UNLESS he loves the White Sox, and sees the team staying competitive for the lifetime of a 3 or 4 year contract.

[Kalapse]

Two things: Who is Buehrle's agent?

 

And, do you guys think Buehrle is more of a stability guy or a money guy? And when I say stability, I mean, same team, not more years. I think he should go on the open market, UNLESS he loves the White Sox, and sees the team staying competitive for the lifetime of a 3 or 4 year contract.

His agent is Jeff Berry.

[greg775]

That quote from the agent today means Mark is gone.

Why did they even report that the 2 sides were going to talk if the agent still

wants a 7-year type deal?

I had hope that he wanted to be a White Sox and would sign a Vazzy type deal for

the 3 years with a 4th option.

Good luck to Mark if he gets hit hard again this season.

[jackie hayes]

Two things: Who is Buehrle's agent?

 

And, do you guys think Buehrle is more of a stability guy or a money guy? And when I say stability, I mean, same team, not more years. I think he should go on the open market, UNLESS he loves the White Sox, and sees the team staying competitive for the lifetime of a 3 or 4 year contract.

His agent is Jeff Berry.

 

I think he's a bit of each. Everyone wants the money, and most want to play on a winner, and I do believe Mark enjoys playing for the Sox (only a little less now that he can't slide on the tarp ). But $40 mil is $40 mil, however much he cares about the Sox. And there's nothing saying he can't sign with a winner if he's a free agent. I don't think he'll end up with the Cards, but if he wanted to, I hear they did okay last year.

[Chisoxfn]

I'd just like to say that I really really like our GM.

[Gene Honda Civic]

But if gets hurt this year he gets nothing, nada, null. They have to consider that ristk. Thats all I was saying.

Mark Mulder was hurt, and he didn't get NULL.

 

Adam Eaton was hurt, and he didn't get NULL.

[knightni]

I still remember that guy at the Sox game who sat next to me had a Lorenzo Barcelo jersey on.

 

Talk about obscure.

[Hideaway Lights]

Kenny Williams would tell you no.

 

 

Not true. Kenny Williams just paid Javy Vazquez based in part on the market that Gil Meche helped to set.

[EvilJester99]

I seen this on WSI and had to share. I thought it was funny.

 

 

[TLAK]

Mark Mulder was hurt, and he didn't get NULL.

Adam Eaton was hurt, and he didn't get NULL.

This is so, but neither had a career ending injury, and yet both are very devalued from before they got hurt. Mulder got 2 years 13 million. Eaton got 3 years 24.5. This is less than Javy money. I'm just saying that the risk of a career ender like Barcelo or Alex Fernandez has to be considered from the players perspective too.

 

MB's track record indicates he is willing to run the risk and pitch out the year on his own hook, he's twice before turned down 'security' offers.