Rowand on The Score

[greasywheels121]

Well, you knew this was coming.

 

 

I was afraid of that.

 

I'm too lazy to read entire threads.

[Kalapse]

What does that have to do with worms?

 

*not following this*

"can of worms" is a figure of speech meaning "A source of unforeseen and troublesome complexity."

 

For years posters such as "The Cheat" (AKA GeneHondaCivic) have challenged the belief that White Sox starting pitcher Mark Buehrle is an ace much to the dismay of many fellow Sox fans. This opened the proverbial "Can of Worms", if you will.

[max power]

"can of worms" is a figure of speech meaning "A source of unforeseen and troublesome complexity."

 

For years posters such as "The Cheat" (AKA GeneHondaCivic) have challenged the belief that White Sox starting pitcher Mark Buehrle is an ace much to the dismay of many fellow Sox fans. This opened the proverbial "Can of Worms", if you will.

 

I missed the post where someone said "can." I thought maybe all the worm talk was related to some buehrle quote.

[jackie hayes]

"can of worms" is a figure of speech meaning "A source of unforeseen and troublesome complexity."

 

For years posters such as "The Cheat" (AKA GeneHondaCivic) have challenged the belief that White Sox starting pitcher Mark Buehrle is an ace much to the dismay of many fellow Sox fans. This opened the proverbial "Can of Worms", if you will.

Well, since we're 'splainin': it would then get tossed into a thread tangentially just to see what sort of a brawl would result.

 

It was awesome.

[Kalapse]

Well, since we're 'splainin': it would then get tossed into a thread tangentially just to see what sort of a brawl would result.

 

It was awesome.

My finest moment?

 

I hope not.

[witesoxfan]

"Glorified 4th outfielder": Very original quote, I think you just plagiarized Mariotti. My point is if the guy is starting arguably the most important outfield position out there for two very good teams, how can he be a 4th outfielder? If he "just so happens to be the best option in CF", then wouldn't that automatically make him better than a 4th outfielder. I never claimed that Rowand is Willie Mays with a goatee, all I stated was that he's not as bad as you, as well as other posters, are making him out to be. The fact that you have to criticize him for basically sacrificing his body for the good of the team is a stretch. If BA backed off on a play because he didn't want to sacrifice his body,and that ends up costing the sox a game many of us would kill him on this board.

 

BTW, the screen name is 3 years old, you apparently also intentionally ignored the date

 

Yeah, I stole it from Mariotti, because I am absolutely obsessed with everything Mariotti writes, says, or does. Or I used it because it's the term that I feel - and many others as well - best describes Aaron Rowand.

 

Secondly, the White Sox weren't good because of the offense; they were good because of pitching and defense. Rowand was apart of that, but what's the use for his defense when both Erstad and Anderson will likely be able to put up the same caliber of defense in CF? or even perhaps a little better? You'll get about the same offensive output from Erstad and Anderson, so it just makes no sense to bring Rowand in, even if he's cheap. He's cutting into money that the Sox could use on other parts come the trade deadline.

 

Also, it would make him better than a 4th outfielder - on some teams. If you were to take the average OPS of every OFer in the majors today, I guarantee Aaron Rowand is either below average or right around average offensively, and his defense, though good, should not allow him a starting spot alone. If he was Torii Hunter from 3 years ago, he could have his same OPS and barely be starting for teams (though he would start). The fact of the matter is he might not start in Philly if he weren't making as much as he is, because it really wouldn't be that hard for them to put Victorino in RF and Bourn in CF and let the two of them get comfortable lower in the order. As it is, he's essentially being handed a job because of his salary.

 

And I do criticize him for sacrificing his body because an extended DL trip is not worth one game. If my player means that much to the team - Rowand may or may not, depending upon replacements - and he's helping the team win while he's in the lineup and on the field, I'm going to rather have him cost us a victory by not making that catch and then make it up later with his bat rather than have him catch the ball, break his wrist or separate his shoulder and be out for 3 months. Rowand's lucky as hell all he suffered from his face to the wall collision only cost him a broken nose and 20-30 games.

 

Finally, I made mention of your screen name because there's bias there. Whether that bias is as strong now as it was in 2004 or 2005 is irrelevant.

[rowandrules83]

Yeah, I stole it from Mariotti, because I am absolutely obsessed with everything Mariotti writes, says, or does. Or I used it because it's the term that I feel - and many others as well - best describes Aaron Rowand.

 

Secondly, the White Sox weren't good because of the offense; they were good because of pitching and defense. Rowand was apart of that, but what's the use for his defense when both Erstad and Anderson will likely be able to put up the same caliber of defense in CF? or even perhaps a little better? You'll get about the same offensive output from Erstad and Anderson, so it just makes no sense to bring Rowand in, even if he's cheap. He's cutting into money that the Sox could use on other parts come the trade deadline.

 

Also, it would make him better than a 4th outfielder - on some teams. If you were to take the average OPS of every OFer in the majors today, I guarantee Aaron Rowand is either below average or right around average offensively, and his defense, though good, should not allow him a starting spot alone. If he was Torii Hunter from 3 years ago, he could have his same OPS and barely be starting for teams (though he would start). The fact of the matter is he might not start in Philly if he weren't making as much as he is, because it really wouldn't be that hard for them to put Victorino in RF and Bourn in CF and let the two of them get comfortable lower in the order. As it is, he's essentially being handed a job because of his salary.

 

And I do criticize him for sacrificing his body because an extended DL trip is not worth one game. If my player means that much to the team - Rowand may or may not, depending upon replacements - and he's helping the team win while he's in the lineup and on the field, I'm going to rather have him cost us a victory by not making that catch and then make it up later with his bat rather than have him catch the ball, break his wrist or separate his shoulder and be out for 3 months. Rowand's lucky as hell all he suffered from his face to the wall collision only cost him a broken nose and 20-30 games.

 

Finally, I made mention of your screen name because there's bias there. Whether that bias is as strong now as it was in 2004 or 2005 is irrelevant.

 

Um, please find where I said we should trade back for him immediately and give him the starting cf job? This has nothing to do with the abilities of Erstad or BA. Personally, I don't think we need Rowand back, so to use my "bias" just because of a friggin screen name is quite an ignorant argument on your part. You guaranteed that Rowand is about league average offensively and good to above average defensively? So, only above average guys are starters? Every team in baseball has potential all-stars? I think you are completely missing my point. Average offensively and solid defense can, and does, help many players in this league have starting jobs. I never claimed that Rowand was a star, I just claimed that, being a starting cf for the past 3 years, by definition, he is not a 4th outfielder.

 

Also, just because a player is expendable doesn't make him less of a player. Under that logic, Freddy Garcia isn't even a 5th starter, because we traded him to make room for other guys.

[spiderman]

If we could get Aaron Rowand back without giving up a top prospect (meaning a Boone Logan), then I'm all for it. I don't consider Rowand to be a 140 game player as he is just an injury waiting to happen, but this OF needs help. Brian Anderson is in the dog house, Erstad may be a find, but he also has had injury issues, and Podsednik, for whatever reason, seems to be rushing back a bit early.

 

While they do have enough bodies (Erstad, Anderson, Mackowiak (LF), Ozuna (LF), and Podsednik) to fill the two spots, and I'm not really sure Rowand is going to be better then anyone of them, I do realize we need to add somebody out there, and it's obvious the White Sox organization loves him.

 

at best Scott Podsednik is a .380 OBP/.820 OPS/75 SB guy at 80%. I'd bet one of my toes he doesn't get anywhere near any of those numbers this year (except maybe the stolen base percentage, and that's if he only steals like 15 bases).

 

I'd also put that same toe on the line and would bet that Aaron Rowand never puts up another .800 OPS season as a starting player again, let alone .300 20 60 XBHs .900.

 

Rowand, at best right now, is a 4th OFer. If you are going strictly based off of numbers, you are incorrect in this. His game just doesn't allow him to be any more than that, and without an adjustment, he never will be able to do it again.

 

I agree with you - Rowand, is probably, a 4th OF, but I'm not against acquiring him and playing the best matchups in CF/LF. I think, outside of Dye, we have an OF currently of backup OF's.

[witesoxfan]

Um, please find where I said we should trade back for him immediately and give him the starting cf job? This has nothing to do with the abilities of Erstad or BA. Personally, I don't think we need Rowand back, so to use my "bias" just because of a friggin screen name is quite an ignorant argument on your part. You guaranteed that Rowand is about league average offensively and good to above average defensively? So, only above average guys are starters? Every team in baseball has potential all-stars? I think you are completely missing my point. Average offensively and solid defense can, and does, help many players in this league have starting jobs. I never claimed that Rowand was a star, I just claimed that, being a starting cf for the past 3 years, by definition, he is not a 4th outfielder.

 

Also, just because a player is expendable doesn't make him less of a player. Under that logic, Freddy Garcia isn't even a 5th starter, because we traded him to make room for other guys.

 

Where have you not advocated bringing him back? No one wants him back immediately because he's mediocre. And if you aren't advocating that, then why are we even having this discussion? He would be a 4th OFer here, that's all I've ever said, and you've essentially agreed to that, have you not? And you're just arguing for technicality's sake? JFC, you aren't defensive when it comes to Rowand at all.

 

Next, if you read closely, I said he'd be around league average, pretty much at his best. I don't know how else you would interpret "I guarantee Aaron Rowand is either below average or right around average offensively." I haven't done the math, but my instinct tells me he's below average offensively, and perhaps quite a bit below average.

 

And I don't get what the f*** you're trying to prove with your last statement. Who suggested that?

[spiderman]

Where have you not advocated bringing him back? No one wants him back immediately because he's mediocre. And if you aren't advocating that, then why are we even having this discussion? He would be a 4th OFer here, that's all I've ever said, and you've essentially agreed to that, have you not? And you're just arguing for technicality's sake? JFC, you aren't defensive when it comes to Rowand at all.

 

Next, if you read closely, I said he'd be around league average, pretty much at his best. I don't know how else you would interpret "I guarantee Aaron Rowand is either below average or right around average offensively." I haven't done the math, but my instinct tells me he's below average offensively, and perhaps quite a bit below average.

 

And I don't get what the f*** you're trying to prove with your last statement. Who suggested that?

 

I think, ideally, he'd be a 4th OF, but I think with the uncertainity in LF/CF for the White Sox, I wouldn't be shocked if he became the regular CF as Anderson doesn't seem to be that high on their list, and I'm not sure what we're going to get from Erstad/Pods. Of the four outfielders, including Rowand if he is traded to the Sox, he would seem the most likely to me to become the regular CF unless Anderson really comes on.

[Reddy]

I think, ideally, he'd be a 4th OF, but I think with the uncertainity in LF/CF for the White Sox, I wouldn't be shocked if he became the regular CF as Anderson doesn't seem to be that high on their list, and I'm not sure what we're going to get from Erstad/Pods. Of the four outfielders, including Rowand if he is traded to the Sox, he would seem the most likely to me to become the regular CF unless Anderson really comes on.

here's where i dont get the 4th OF thing:

 

VORP (Value Over Replacement Player) for the last 3 years.

 

2004 42.0

2005 14.7

2006 8.8

 

now, last year was very low because of health issues and - possibly - not liking where he's playing. yes that's a big assumtion but who knows. 2004 is so high because it was a random breakout year that he's not likely to duplicate again. so that leaves us with 14.7 which is actually a pretty respectable number and actually, BP is projecting an 18 VORP for 2007.

 

for Anderson they're projecting a 9.1 VORP (significantly better than last year's -11.3)

 

for Erstad they're projecting a -8.6... ick

 

for Podsednik it's a -3.2

 

 

ok so my point is, if Rowand is a 4th OF than the other three need to be sent to the minors or sumthin cuz DAMN. In the end, if he came cheap, Rowand would help this team better than any of our other options.

 

EDIT: oh and by the way, VORP does NOT take defense into account so he's actually even MORE useful then.

Edited March 14, 2007 by Reddy

[witesoxfan]

here's where i dont get the 4th OF thing:

 

VORP (Value Over Replacement Player) for the last 3 years.

 

2004 42.0

2005 14.7

2006 8.8

 

now, last year was very low because of health issues and - possibly - not liking where he's playing. yes that's a big assumtion but who knows. 2004 is so high because it was a random breakout year that he's not likely to duplicate again. so that leaves us with 14.7 which is actually a pretty respectable number and actually, BP is projecting an 18 VORP for 2007.

 

for Anderson they're projecting a 9.1 VORP (significantly better than last year's -11.3)

 

for Erstad they're projecting a -8.6... ick

 

for Podsednik it's a -3.2

ok so my point is, if Rowand is a 4th OF than the other three need to be sent to the minors or sumthin cuz DAMN. In the end, if he came cheap, Rowand would help this team better than any of our other options.

 

EDIT: oh and by the way, VORP does NOT take defense into account so he's actually even MORE useful then.

 

That's merely projections. You're basing your entire argument off of something that they think might happen if everything in their scenario goes right. It's obviously an educated guess, but my educated guess says Anderson will have a better year than Rowand if he plays full time. Neither of us are right or wrong, and neither are more right or more wrong.

 

So, no, I don't buy your argument at all.

[Reddy]

That's merely projections. You're basing your entire argument off of something that they think might happen if everything in their scenario goes right. It's obviously an educated guess, but my educated guess says Anderson will have a better year than Rowand if he plays full time. Neither of us are right or wrong, and neither are more right or more wrong.

 

So, no, I don't buy your argument at all.

ok... but its a statistical fact that there is always a regression to the mean so for instance with Rowand, 42 VORP and 8.8 VORP cancel each other out and what your left with is a pretty decent VORP in the 14-19 range.

 

how can you not buy that?

 

and by the way - what numbers do you have to back up your educated guess? just wondering.

 

EDIT: and by the way, the whole point of my post was to dispel this 4th OF bull. based on purely numbers from the last 3 seasons alone he's better than a replacement player by far.

Edited March 14, 2007 by Reddy

[witesoxfan]

ok... but its a statistical fact that there is always a regression to the mean so for instance with Rowand, 42 VORP and 8.8 VORP cancel each other out and what your left with is a pretty decent VORP in the 14-19 range.

 

how can you not buy that?

 

and by the way - what numbers do you have to back up your educated guess? just wondering.

 

EDIT: and by the way, the whole point of my post was to dispel this 4th OF bull. based on purely numbers from the last 3 seasons alone he's better than a replacement player by far.

 

Everything I've seen from Rowand since 2004 suggests his game is going downhill. Why is that suddenly going to change? Anderson is a good young player who really can't get worse than he was, and he has looked better this spring.

 

Meanwhile, Anderson had about a .700 OPS in the second half last year, and after having worked a bit on his swing during the winter and just recently in ST, he is absolutely tearing the cover off of the ball in Spring Ball (to no avail too because Ozzie won't give him his shot in CF which is an absolute joke) - .348/.385/.565/.950 - opposed to Rowand's OPS not even equaling Anderson's average - .129/.152/.161/.313.

 

And beyond that, it's merely hunch.

Edited March 14, 2007 by witesoxfan

[Reddy]

Everything I've seen from Rowand since 2004 suggests his game is going downhill. Why is that suddenly going to change? Anderson is a good young player who really can't get worse than he was, and he has looked better this spring.

 

Meanwhile, Anderson had about a .700 OPS in the second half last year, and after having worked a bit on his swing during the winter and just recently in ST, he is absolutely tearing the cover off of the ball in Spring Ball (to no avail too because Ozzie won't give him his shot in CF which is an absolute joke) - .348/.385/.565/.950 - opposed to Rowand's OPS not even equaling Anderson's average - .129/.152/.161/.313.

 

And beyond that, it's merely hunch.

its amazing how one moment spring training numbers mean nothing and the next minute BAM! they're the most important stat in the world. lol

[WHITESOXRANDY]

I don't know how many people here are satisfied with finishing with a winning record in the best division in baseball - whether that's 2nd, 3rd or 4th place. If you are, that's ok.

 

But, to WIN this very very tight race with 3 other excellent teams, every game is gonna count big. The Sox can't afford to play games every other 5th game with "we'll give Floyd a few more games to figure it out" or "Danks is taking some lumps now but he'll learn and in a year or two he'll be really good". That's fine if you want to watch the playoffs on TV.

 

The White Sox need 5 legitimate big league starters now -just like Detroit and Cleveland. They don't. Reason # 1 why they'll miss the playoffs.

 

Reason # 2 - the Sox have Dye and 4- 4th outfielders. There are few teams that would start Erstad, Anderson, Ozuna, Pods, Mack. or Terrero on their team. Certainly not the American league representative in the World Series. Pods is the only one that could maybe be a good outfielder this year and that's if he stays healthy the whole year.

 

Kenny's trades of Garcia and McCarthy, no matter how they turn out- are trades for the future. They hurt the team for 2007. If he was going to do this, then he should have signed a veteran starter for this year's 5th spot. Floyd, Danks and Haeger need more seasoning before they can be counted on every 5th day for a quality start.

 

And, an outfielder should have been added atleast the caliber of Rowand.

 

I do like what he did with the bullpen and the Toby Hall signing but he left these 2 spots undermanned and that's why they'll miss the playoffs.

[witesoxfan]

its amazing how one moment spring training numbers mean nothing and the next minute BAM! they're the most important stat in the world. lol

 

For a guy like Anderson or Erstad who's trying to prove himself, it does matter. For a guy like Konerko or Iguchi or Pierzynski, not nearly as much because they know what to expect and know what they need to do to be successful.

 

I suppose you could argue that Rowand knows what he needs to do, but usually players hit better than .129. Just like you could argue that even though Garland and Buehrle and Vazquez know what do to, they all still have ERAs that are way to friggin high.

[rowandrules83]

Where have you not advocated bringing him back? No one wants him back immediately because he's mediocre. And if you aren't advocating that, then why are we even having this discussion? He would be a 4th OFer here, that's all I've ever said, and you've essentially agreed to that, have you not? And you're just arguing for technicality's sake? JFC, you aren't defensive when it comes to Rowand at all.

 

Next, if you read closely, I said he'd be around league average, pretty much at his best. I don't know how else you would interpret "I guarantee Aaron Rowand is either below average or right around average offensively." I haven't done the math, but my instinct tells me he's below average offensively, and perhaps quite a bit below average.

 

And I don't get what the f*** you're trying to prove with your last statement. Who suggested that?

 

Where have i not advocated that? Um, maybe in the post you responded to...i said that i don't think we need him back, so it seems that you are making rebuttals to points that I never made. Just because I say I think he's better than you're making him out to be doesn't automatically mean I think the sox should try to get him back.

 

I think it's kinda messed up to criticize me and say I'm making a stupid argument for stating facts (such as Aaron Rowand has been a starting CF the past few years for solid teams) and then use your "instinct" as part of the basis of your argument. If you have that feeling, hell, more power to you, but it doesn't mean that i'm a biased, defensive jackass. Well, at the least the biased and defensive part...i am kinda a jackass

[Vance Law]

The White Sox organization is FAR from perfect when it comes to personnel moves and all this Rowand talk only makes them look worse. They put all they're eggs in the basket of a 23 year old AAA OF[Anderson], trading away a guy who some people for whatever reason seem to think is a pretty good player in Aaron Rowand and a potential 30/30 guy/top 12 prospect in all of baseball in Chris Young for a league average pitcher [Vazquez]just to clear the way for the 23 year old. And now they're apparently scrambling trying to find a replacement for this failed major leaguer.

 

You forgot to mention that we got Thome in one of these 2 trades you referenced.

[witesoxfan]

Where have i not advocated that? Um, maybe in the post you responded to...i said that i don't think we need him back, so it seems that you are making rebuttals to points that I never made. Just because I say I think he's better than you're making him out to be doesn't automatically mean I think the sox should try to get him back.

 

I think it's kinda messed up to criticize me and say I'm making a stupid argument for stating facts (such as Aaron Rowand has been a starting CF the past few years for solid teams) and then use your "instinct" as part of the basis of your argument. If you have that feeling, hell, more power to you, but it doesn't mean that i'm a biased, defensive jackass. Well, at the least the biased and defensive part...i am kinda a jackass

 

I'm using facts too. His OPS is below league average for an outfielder. Below average offensive outfielders generally shouldn't start, especially when their defense, even if good, doesn't justify them starting in the first place. Many would agree with that line of thought.

 

regardless, this argument is going nowhere, and we are arguing over something petty. Maybe we are both jackasses

[LVSoxFan]

I'll jump in since this has been going on since the winter.

 

I personally would like to see Rowand back. There, I said it.

 

I don't mind BA and he has a lot of potential but as somebody said, with Rowand we know what we're getting. I think his presence would light a fire in the clubhouse.

 

I don't understand why some label him a "mediocre" fielder. I can't recall many plays--and I'm always out in the field right behid him--where I thought "Oh crap! So-and-so would have had that!" (like I do with Mack).

 

I'll be the first to admit that sentimentality is biasing me, but on the other hand, I didn't feel the kind of chemistry with last year's squad that I did when A-Row was around. In '06 there were more than a few games where I thought they just looked passionless. Is Rowand the solution? Maybe, maybe not. But I certainly don't think it would HURT us.

 

But no, trading somebody like McDougal for him--that's crazy. We can get him for cheaper. Let's do it. Platoon the old guy, LOL...

[Balta1701]

I don't understand why some label him a "mediocre" fielder. I can't recall many plays--and I'm always out in the field right behid him--where I thought "Oh crap! So-and-so would have had that!" (like I do with Mack).

Rowand, if healthy, is clearly an above average fielder. The only sense in which he is mediocre is when he's compared to Brian Anderson. Because Brian Anderson is that good out there.

Edited March 15, 2007 by Balta1701

[toasty]

i'd take an OF of rowand/anderson/dye 4th of pods/erstad

 

 

anderson day off, rowand takes center, the 4th of gets left

[ShoeLessRob]

i'd take an OF of rowand/anderson/dye 4th of pods/erstad

anderson day off, rowand takes center, the 4th of gets left

 

Never would happ'n, IF and I mean IF Rowand returns to the Southside, bye bye Anderson. Traded or left in AAA to rot.

[BearSox]

This thread is useless since this will never happen!!!!