Sox @ Rangers, March 13

[hitlesswonder]

The Rockies package for Jennings blows our package out of the water. I know Jennings is better than Garcia, but at least the Rockies got likely 3 MLB players out of it. At this point, we might be lucky to get 1 from our deal.

 

Agreed. Seriously, Hirsh alone (just one of the players the Rox got for Jennings) would have been a better deal than Floyd/Gonzalez.

Usually, I don't think it's faor for a fan to say that a better deal must have been out there, but in this case it's a reasonable based on the HOU-COL trade.

 

It really looks like Floyd is an underperforming pitcher that the Sox fell in love with for some reason -- they projected him to break out and overvalued him accordingly. It's sort of like the Ritchie trade, where the Sox gave up overvalued Ritchie because they thought he would have a breakout season.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(jphat007 @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 06:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL. Either Floyd or Danks putting up a 4.50 ERA with 1.30 whip is like Brian Anderson hitting 50+ homers? LOL.

 

I'll go out on a limb and assume you weren't serious

Keep Danks out of it. KW did not trade Garcia to get Danks. KW did not trade Garcia with the idea of trading for Danks.

 

Yes I highly doubt Floyd can put up a 4.5 ERA, and Garcia hasn't had a 1.30+ WHIP since 2003.

[jphat007]

So, I take it you're not going to decide who won/lost the McCarthy deal until Rasner proves himself....in 2010. By then, the results should come out and you won't look foolish.

 

LOL. Yah, that's exactly what I was saying. Just like we waited until Mike Morse sucked to know that the Freddy trade was a good one. Yah. Good analogy flash.

 

Keep Danks out of it. KW did not trade Garcia to get Danks. KW did not trade Garcia with the idea of trading for Danks.

 

Yes I highly doubt Floyd can put up a 4.5 ERA, and Garcia hasn't had a 1.30+ WHIP since 2003.

 

He had a 1.28 whip last year. He also had a 4.53 ERA. I was rounding, sue me,

[santo=dorf]

.02 in WHIP is very significant. Give it a rest already Hawk Jr.

[jphat007]

.02 in WHIP is very significant. Give it a rest already Hawk Jr.

 

Four whole baserunners over the course of 1 year. Wow. You're right. Didn't realize it was so significant.

 

Makes you look smarter to start name calling when you don't have an argument though.

Edited March 13, 2007 by jphat007

[Flash Tizzle]

Agreed. Seriously, Hirsh alone (just one of the players the Rox got for Jennings) would have been a better deal than Floyd/Gonzalez.

Usually, I don't think it's faor for a fan to say that a better deal must have been out there, but in this case it's a reasonable based on the HOU-COL trade.

 

It really looks like Floyd is an underperforming pitcher that the Sox fell in love with for some reason -- they projected him to break out and overvalued him accordingly. It's sort of like the Ritchie trade, where the Sox gave up overvalued Ritchie because they thought he would have a breakout season.

It's poor decisions such as these which we desperately need to avoid in future deals.

 

Let's remember, Williams traded Garcia and McCarthy to restock the farm system with talented arms in hopes of avoiding the escalating FA market. With an already suspect minor league system, which completely avoids all foreign development, we NEED to have better people working under the organization capable of identifying talent. Our success practically depends upon it.

 

Want to take a chance on Floyd? Find another way of obtaining him. We shouldn't have to deal with projects such as him (with no previous indication of success) in deals involving starting pitchers.

 

LOL. Yah, that's exactly what I was saying. Just like we waited until Mike Morse sucked to know that the Freddy trade was a good one. Yah. Good analogy flash.

Of course, because it didn't influence your opinion of the trade. Reed/Olivo alone were proving themselves useless by year two of the deal.

 

If Danks/Masset fail to reach expecatations, and McCarthy does well, it would just be your nature to hold off criticism until Rasner comes alone.

Edited March 14, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[DBAHO]

Agreed. Seriously, Hirsh alone (just one of the players the Rox got for Jennings) would have been a better deal than Floyd/Gonzalez.

Usually, I don't think it's faor for a fan to say that a better deal must have been out there, but in this case it's a reasonable based on the HOU-COL trade.

 

It really looks like Floyd is an underperforming pitcher that the Sox fell in love with for some reason -- they projected him to break out and overvalued him accordingly. It's sort of like the Ritchie trade, where the Sox gave up overvalued Ritchie because they thought he would have a breakout season.

I don't agree with that. It's not even a given that Hirsh is going to start the season in the Rockies rotation, instead he may be down in AAA with Colorado Springs.

 

Upside wise, I'd say Gio has just as much as Hirsh, albeit he's not at that level yet, and he's probably moreso a riskier prospect.

 

Let's not forget in all of this, Garcia hardly set the world on fire last season, and yes he did turn it around a little towards the end of the season, but is that a clear indicator for what he's going to do this season? I don't know.

 

Floyd is a work in progress, the results are not going to come overnight. I don't really take stock of spring training numbers much, because of the Brandon McCarthy example.

 

But I think Floyd needs to show something before ST is all said and done, otherwise he's going to lose out because there's going to be too much pressure to use John Danks, before I believe he's ready.

[jphat007]

It's poor decisions such as these which we desperately need to avoid in future deals.

 

Let's remember, Williams traded Garcia and McCarthy to restock the farm system with talented arms in hopes of avoiding the escalating FA market. With an already suspect minor league system, which completely avoids all foreign development, we NEED to have better people working under the organization capable of identifying talent. Our success practically depends upon it.

 

Want to take a chance on Floyd? Find another way of obtaining him. We shouldn't have to deal with projects such as him in deals involving starting pitchers, when our future depends so heavily on a return package.

Of course, because it didn't influence your opinion of the trade. Reed/Olivo alone were proving themselves useless by year two of the deal.

 

If Danks/Masset fail to reach expecatations, and McCarthy does well, it would just be your nature to hold off criticism until Rasner comes alone.

 

Uh, no. I'd say the trade sucked. Just like the Ritchie trade or any other similar trade. I've said it over time.

 

I'm not not saying the Floyd trade is a good one, but everybody is saying it is not a good trade when the dude hasn't even pitched for our team yet. It's ridiculous.

[fathom]

Brian Anderson will have more homers than David Ortiz this year.

 

Prove me wrong jphat.

 

HOW DO YOU KNOW HE WONT?

 

Maybe, maybe not.

 

I don't know....the fences in Charlotte are pretty small. And I couldn't agree with you more that we could really use Garcia this year. You make a great comparison to Loaiza and his cutter. The thing I said all last year is that no matter how annoying Garcia was, I guarantee he tries harder during his FA year.

[witesoxfan]

I don't know....the fences in Charlotte are pretty small. And I couldn't agree with you more that we could really use Garcia this year. You make a great comparison to Loaiza and his cutter. The thing I said all last year is that no matter how annoying Garcia was, I guarantee he tries harder during his FA year.

 

The Sox wouldn't have been able to afford Garcia neither this year nor in future years. It was Garcia or Buehrle.

 

You can criticize KW for trading McCarthy - and you have several times - but one of the starting pitchers had to go, and you can't hold that against Williams at all.

[hitlesswonder]

I'm not not saying the Floyd trade is a good one, but everybody is saying it is not a good trade when the dude hasn't even pitched for our team yet. It's ridiculous.

 

I don't think it is ridiculous to be disappointed at this point. Just because Floyd hasn't pitched in the bigs for the Sox yet doesn't mean that people can't form an opinion of whether or not the Sox got fair value in the trade. It's perfectly acceptable to look at Floyd's minor league numbers, and major league numbers with PHI and think he may not be able to give you the 5.25 or better ERA that you'd want from a 5th starter. Williams said that Floyd turned a corner in the AFL. Given that statement, it's reasonable to expect him to pitch moderately well in spring training.

 

I really hope Floyd succeeds. And I admit that he could very possibly turn things around still. And on that quasi-optimistic note, I'm out of here...

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(jphat007 @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 06:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Four whole baserunners over the course of 1 year. Wow. You're right. Didn't realize it was so significant.

 

Makes you look smarter to start name calling when you don't have an argument though.

I have an argument why Floyd won't be as good as Garcia and why the trade sucked, yet all you keep coming back with is "well you can't see the future."

 

For Floyd to have a WHIP of 1.3, he would have to cut back by .58 from last season. It's not happening.

 

QUOTE(jphat007 @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 07:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uh, no. I'd say the trade sucked. Just like the Ritchie trade or any other similar trade. I've said it over time.

 

I'm not not saying the Floyd trade is a good one, but everybody is saying it is not a good trade when the dude hasn't even pitched for our team yet. It's ridiculous.

....and you still don't get it. It's not all about how Floyd will perform. We didn't get enough back for Garcia. If it was Floyd + Gonzalez + someone else of name, it'd be a better trade, perhaps a good one. Floyd could pitch better than expected, and still suck. Floyd could be a decent pitcher, but the Sox still don't win enough games because he wasn't good enough. Most people are convinced that Garcia will be better than Floyd next year, and they should be.

[AWhiteSoxinNJ]

I have been saying it since we got Floyd from the Phillies, he stinks! I've seen him for years since I am in the Philly market living in South Jersey, and he hasn't impressed at all since the minor leagues. He is a complete waste of a roster spot and I still can't believe he is the best (along with Gio) we got for Garcia. Thumbs down to KW.

[whitesox61382]

I want to start by saying that I think KW could have gotten a little more for Garcia, but lets not foget that Garcia has 3 pretty big negatives that hurt his trade value(last year of contract, big salary, and inconsistent performance in 2006). Furthermore, i hear a lot of people comparing the Garcia trade to the package that Colorado received for Jennings, but here are some interesting numbers to consider:

 

Floyd minors - 3.77ERA 706IP

Hirsh minors - 2.90ERA 472IP

Buchholz minors - 3.92EA 765IP

 

Hirsch's ERA is better, but you have to consider both sample size(fewer IP) and age(Floyd pitched at higher levels at younger age). Floyd and Buchholz minor league numbers are almost identical.

 

Floyd majors - 6.96ERA 108IP

Hirsh majors - 6.04ERA 44IP

Buchholz majors - 5.89ERA 113IP

 

Buchholz has had a little more success with a similar sample size, but has been far from impressive. Hirsh's sample size is probably too small, but he certainly didn't impress.

 

Floyd ST 2007 - 8.39ERA 9.2IP(including todays impressive performance)

Hirsh ST 2007 - 9.45ERA 6.2IP(Sox knocked him around the other day)

Buchholz ST 2007 - 6.75ERA 8IP

 

None of these guys has impressed or gone out and won a job based on their ST performances.

 

When you look at things critically, what have Buchholz or Hirsh done that makes them better at this point? It is like bragging about being the tallest midget with these guys at this point. They all have above average raw stuff, and are relatively the same age(Floyd is actually the youngest of the bunch). Hirsh is getting a lot of hype at this point because of his size(6'8) and consistent minor league performance, but I think he is overrated. Would Sox fans be complaining about Hirsh and Buchholz at this point if they were in a Sox uniform and struggling?

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't a team have to offer a FA player arbitration in order to get compensation via draft picks if that player signs with a different team? Everyone assumes that the Sox are guaranteed to get draft picks if they lose their players via FA opposed to trades, but that isn't always the case. In fact, based on the Sox track record, I would say it is 50/50 that they offer arbitration so please be careful in assuming that the Sox would automatically get draft picks for FA they lose.

[Flash Tizzle]

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't a team have to offer a FA player arbitration in order to get compensation via draft picks if that player signs with a different team? Everyone assumes that the Sox are guaranteed to get draft picks if they lose their players via FA opposed to trades, but that isn't always the case. In fact, based on the Sox track record, I would say it is 50/50 that they offer arbitration so please be careful in assuming that the Sox would automatically get draft picks for FA they lose.

It isn't always the case, but it will be this season. Consider the salary of Dye and Buehrle. Now way in hell either accepts arbitration for less than market value if they're healthy. We'll have four draft picks come 2008 if Dye/Buehrle perform decently. Unless one/both had previously been traded.

Edited March 14, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[Balta1701]

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't a team have to offer a FA player arbitration in order to get compensation via draft picks if that player signs with a different team? Everyone assumes that the Sox are guaranteed to get draft picks if they lose their players via FA opposed to trades, but that isn't always the case. In fact, based on the Sox track record, I would say it is 50/50 that they offer arbitration so please be careful in assuming that the Sox would automatically get draft picks for FA they lose.

Unless Mark Buehrle's arm falls off this season, Kenny Williams should be fired if he doesn't offer either of those guys arbitration. There is absolutely no loss. If they accept...we get them back at similar costs. If they don't, then we have more time to negotiate with them. If they walk, we get back draft picks. The only time you don't offer someone arbitration if you have the option is if you think they'll accept and they made more the previous year than you think they were worth.

[RockRaines]

Me and you are on the same page. Like I said earlier on this thread, I highly, highly doubt that was the "best" package we could have gotten considering we rushed into a trade with Freddy.

I didnt even know you had a position in the front office. I wasnt even aware of the time frame nor the other offers. Amazing.

 

 

Floyd had a sub 4 ERA this ST until today. BMACS isnt much better.

[BearSox]

When is the last time a White Sox rookie starting pitcher made it an entire season on the major league roster? Danks is thought to be a little green by most baseball people. Floyd has just been a disaster.

You can't take past history and automatically think it applies to every prospect we have.

[mr_genius]

i'm bored of spring training. ready for season to begin

 

[BearSox]

The Garcia trade has gotten annoying really fast. Garcia was a salary dump. The White Sox organization was very high on Gio and Floyd, and was not high on Garcia. Floyd can become decent and Gio could become a stud. And one could argue that Garcia lost it last year and his career will go downhill from now on.

 

In 5 years this could become a real steal, or a big blunder by KW. It is just way too early to say the Sox blew this one. Did KW undervalue Freddy and could have possibly gotten more, probably. But this wasn't a terrible trade, from what anyone could tell. And it wasn't an obvious bad trade. A trade that you could tell would be bad right away would be something like Jon Garland for Julio Franco and a crappy 'spect. But the Garcia/Floyd and Gio trade just has too many ifs and buts in it right now for one to conclude it was a bad trade.

[Gregory Pratt]

I don't know....the fences in Charlotte are pretty small. And I couldn't agree with you more that we could really use Garcia this year. You make a great comparison to Loaiza and his cutter. The thing I said all last year is that no matter how annoying Garcia was, I guarantee he tries harder during his FA year.

 

I can't recall a single time you saying that once, let alone more than three times.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

The Garcia trade has gotten annoying really fast. Garcia was a salary dump. The White Sox organization was very high on Gio and Floyd, and was not high on Garcia. Floyd can become decent and Gio could become a stud. And one could argue that Garcia lost it last year and his career will go downhill from now on.

 

In 5 years this could become a real steal, or a big blunder by KW. It is just way too early to say the Sox blew this one. Did KW undervalue Freddy and could have possibly gotten more, probably. But this wasn't a terrible trade, from what anyone could tell. And it wasn't an obvious bad trade. A trade that you could tell would be bad right away would be something like Jon Garland for Julio Franco and a crappy 'spect. But the Garcia/Floyd and Gio trade just has too many ifs and buts in it right now for one to conclude it was a bad trade.

 

In the words of the Talking Heads " Stop Making Sense ." It was a bad trade the armchair GM's, fantasy geeks, and the biggest mouths on Soxtalk have spoken.

[jphat007]

I can't recall a single time you saying that once, let alone more than three times.

 

That's what I was thinking. I do remember many a time saying how awful and washed up Freddy was.

[fathom]

I can't recall a single time you saying that once, let alone more than three times.

 

I probably said that 1000 times during the season, how I would guarantee Garcia would be throwing harder during his FA year. When someone comes out and says that they don't even try in big games, that's a pretty significant signal to me. Now that his career rests on how he does this year, you better believe he'll be trying harder this year.

[Gregory Pratt]

All I'm saying is, I never remember you saying it. Got any links?

 

That's what I was thinking. I do remember many a time saying how awful and washed up Freddy was.

 

That's what I'm thinking.