Sox @ Rangers, March 13

[SoxAce]

I'll also argue the McCarthy deal was rather ridiculous considering the pieces we picked up. How much better is Danks/Massett than Hirsh/Bucholz? The difference in those packages certainly doesn't equal the large disparity, both in talent and service time left to the team, that Jennings and McCarthy present.

 

That's different Tizz. That other deal would have been Garland not BMac. And I'll take Danks anyweek over those other two. I don't mind the BMac deal much. But the Garcia trade? No. Unless Floyd figures it out and suddenly pitches up to his potential this was not a good trade and it's hard for me to say cause I have supported every trade KW has made even Reed leaving.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(jphat007 @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 06:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How do you know that either Danks or Floyd won't outperform Garcia this year. You are speaking in a lot of absolutes considering nobody has thrown a pitch this season.

Danks has NOTHING to do with the Garcia trade, although if the Sox would rather save face, Floyd's sucky ass will be blocking Danks.

 

Garcia has proven himself over the AL, is IN A CONTRACT YEAR, and was working on a new pitch (ala Esteban Loaiza in 2002.)

 

Floyd bombed out in Philly and AAA last season. There's a reason why I should doubt him having success in the AL this year. Philly viewed Floyd the same way the Sox organization and fans viewed Jon Rauch after he left that Saturday game early back in 2004.

[elrockinMT]

Garcia won't bomb. He has a proven track record and is a battler. He will win 15 to 20 wins for the Phillies. Are they willing to pay him next year though? Freddie may end up as a free agent, but I think we could have signed him for Vazquez type money, if we had kept him.

[jphat007]

Maybe becase Garcia is a veteran and we know what we'll probably get outta him whereas Danks is a rookie who wasn't that impressive in his short stint in AAA last season and Floyd was in the NL gettin rocked. I will personally eat a ton of crow if Danks or Floyd can out pitch Freddy this entire season and i'm not just talking about one day where Freddy might have been bad whereas one of them might have been good. The ENTIRE season. And just to add Freddy is pitching in the NL and Danks or Floyd is pitching in the tough AL? I'll get my check book ready.

 

That's all I'm saying. It is agains the laws of this universe for you to know that Freddy will outperform them. Until then no one can say for sure whether it was a bad trade or not. And really you can't say for a couple years.

 

It's ironic. I can remember the outcries saying that Reed, Olivo and Morse was too much to give up for Freddy. But nobody truly knew. You look back now and you say, 'holy hell' that surely looks like a steal now.

[SoxAce]

That doesn't tell me how you KNOW that Freddy will outperform them. You told me why you THINK Freddy will outperform them.

 

Define dense

[Jordan4life_2007]

Jphat, don't forget Freddy is in the NL this year. He dominated NL teams last year. I'd be shocked if he didn't atleast match last year's numbers (era will probably be lower). No way in hell Floyd or Danks will out-pitch Freddy in 2007.

[Reddy]

That doesn't tell me how you KNOW that Freddy will outperform them. You told me why you THINK Freddy will outperform them.

so... you think Danks or Floyd will log 200+ innings? really?

[jphat007]

Define dense

 

Ah good. Now I see how you know Freddy will outperform them. Thanks for that.

[SoxAce]

It doesn't hurt that Freddy will be pitching against pitchers not named Zambrano, Willis or Hampton (even though he's injured) this season rather than DH's..

[jphat007]

so... you think Danks or Floyd will log 200+ innings? really?

 

Don't know. Maybe. Maybe not.

[SoxAce]

Jphat, don't forget Freddy is in the NL this year. He dominated NL teams last year. I'd be shocked if he didn't atleast match last year's numbers (era will probably be lower). No way in hell Floyd or Danks will out-pitch Freddy in 2007.

 

Your a smart man. I forgot his dominence in interleague play.

[jphat007]

Jphat, don't forget Freddy is in the NL this year. He dominated NL teams last year. I'd be shocked if he didn't atleast match last year's numbers (era will probably be lower). No way in hell Floyd or Danks will out-pitch Freddy in 2007.

 

Well, when I say outpitch I don't mean just looking at their ERA. That's not realistic. And even still. That doesn't doesn't mean we know for sure right now that Gio and Floyd won't be better than Freddy pitches this year. No one can say so definitively. We won't know until then. And so, there is no real reason to discuss this anymore until on down the road and further in the future.

Edited March 13, 2007 by jphat007

[Flash Tizzle]

That's different Tizz. That other deal would have been Garland not BMac. And I'll take Danks anyweek over those other two. I don't mind the BMac deal much. But the Garcia trade? No. Unless Floyd figures it out and suddenly pitches up to his potential this was not a good trade and it's hard for me to say cause I have supported every trade KW has made even Reed leaving.

I didn't mean that McCarthy could have been traded for that package. There's no doubt he could have. I just threw it out as to suggest the disparity in both deals. McCarthy should have been traded for Hurley and Danks or nothing at all. Masset may be a valuable bullpen arm, but he's just that -- a bullpen arm. An area of a ballclub which is typically unreliable season to season, except for a selected few. Two legitimate SP prospects should have been obtained.

Edited March 13, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[SoxAce]

Don't know. Maybe. Maybe not.

 

NO! I don't even think both have thrown 200 innings in their lives. The sox will do just like what the Tigers did with Verlander. IF they pitch the entire season I can see them pitching about 160-180 innings.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Well, when I say outpitch I don't mean just looking at their ERA. That's not realistic.

 

Wins? What's your criteria?

[jphat007]

Note to self. Stay out of game threads this season.

 

Well, I'm doubt I'll be in them much, so instead of arguing, there will just be b****ing, moaning, whining and complaining.

[santo=dorf]

Brian Anderson will have more homers than David Ortiz this year.

 

Prove me wrong jphat.

 

HOW DO YOU KNOW HE WONT?

 

Maybe, maybe not.

[zimne piwo]

Meanwhile, today's final: Sox 12, Texas 8.

[jphat007]

Brian Anderson will have more homers than David Ortiz this year.

 

Prove me wrong jphat.

 

HOW DO YOU KNOW HE WONT?

 

Maybe, maybe not.

 

I don't. And I can't prove you wrong. I'm glad you got my point. Though that was an awfully strange extreme to use.

[Flash Tizzle]

It's ironic. I can remember the outcries saying that Reed, Olivo and Morse was too much to give up for Freddy. But nobody truly knew. You look back now and you say, 'holy hell' that surely looks like a steal now.

At the time, considering the status of those three, it WAS giving up too much. Sure, it obviously worked out for the Sox; but does that mean Williams should always include top prospects because it worked out once? Or that I should trust every move because no traded prospects have come back to haunt us? Well, Chris Young will probably change that belief.

Edited March 13, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[jphat007]

At the time, considering the status of those three, it WAS giving up too much. Sure, it obviously worked out for Seattle; but does that mean Williams should always include top prospects because it worked out once? Or that I should trust every move because no traded prospects have come back to haunt us? Well, Chris Young will probably change that belief.

 

Chris Young could be a horrible trade. Freddy for Floyd/Gio could be a horrible trade. Bmac for Danks could be a horrible trade.

 

All three of those scenarios could play out. But who cares what people THINK is too much to give up now. As in the case of the Freddy for Reed trade, all that matters is the results in the end.

 

To this day KW has made some terrible trades, but most of the time he knows what he is doing, and he has shown plenty of times that judging his trades before the results come out is very, very foolish.

Edited March 13, 2007 by jphat007

[Reddy]

I don't. And I can't prove you wrong. I'm glad you got my point. Though that was an awfully strange extreme to use.

Floyd/Danks vs. Garcia is just as extreme my friend

[jphat007]

Floyd/Danks vs. Garcia is just as extreme my friend

 

LOL. Either Floyd or Danks putting up a 4.50 ERA with 1.30 whip is like Brian Anderson hitting 50+ homers? LOL.

 

I'll go out on a limb and assume you weren't serious

[SoxAce]

To this day KW has made some terrible trades, but most of the time he knows what he is doing, and he has shown plenty of times that judging his trades before the results come out is very, very foolish.

 

Like i said earlier, I understand what your sayin, but at the same time when someone is trying to tell you why a certain trade/signing is bad, you go on dense mode. It is hard to elaborate on a particular subject when it's like I'm posting to a wall. i still believe Reed will be a stud but like you said it is still a wait and see. we didnt steal a trade from them. where's Freddy now? He's in another uniform. Where is Reed now? Still in Seattle. I'll say this we did get a championship because that's what KW wanted and that's what matters in the end. He does sacrifice the future for the present and I respect that even though nowadays he's trying to trade quickly to have some future and not just be patient. I probably won't post anymore on this thread so I'll let you add your two cents in.

[Flash Tizzle]

Chris Young could be a horrible trade. Freddy for Floyd/Gio could be a horrible trade. Bmac for Danks could be a horrible trade.

 

All three of those scenarios could play out. But who cares what people THINK is too much to give up now. As in the case of the Freddy for Reed trade, all that matters is the results in the end.

 

To this day KW has made some terrible trades, but most of the time he knows what he is doing, and he has shown plenty of times that judging his trades before the results come out is very, very foolish.

So, I take it you're not going to decide who won/lost the McCarthy deal until Rasner proves himself....in 2010. By then, the results should come out and you won't look foolish.