First Class Accommodations

[Texsox]

The tax thread has me thinking. Whether it be Hotels, Neighborhoods, Airline seats, etc. we all know it costs more to go First Class and we either pay the cost or accept the best we can or are willing to pay for. Can't afford to live in Lake Forest? Libertyville may be just the ticket.

 

What do you do when a country has priced itself too high? It costs a lot to create and maintain a First Class country like the US. If the numbers in that thread are accurate, we accept that 40% of the population can not afford to pay income taxes. In a sense, they do not earn enough to cover their share of the cost.

 

One alternative is to cut back and in a sense have a "coach class" country and allow the wealthiest to retain more of their hard earned income. This stops the poor from robbing the rich. Problem is, I don't think the rich would want to livbe in the country that the poorest could afford to build. (think Mexico)

 

Is there a point when we have priced ourselves too high?

[EvilMonkey]

The tax thread has me thinking. Whether it be Hotels, Neighborhoods, Airline seats, etc. we all know it costs more to go First Class and we either pay the cost or accept the best we can or are willing to pay for. Can't afford to live in Lake Forest? Libertyville may be just the ticket.

 

What do you do when a country has priced itself too high? It costs a lot to create and maintain a First Class country like the US. If the numbers in that thread are accurate, we accept that 40% of the population can not afford to pay income taxes. In a sense, they do not earn enough to cover their share of the cost.

 

One alternative is to cut back and in a sense have a "coach class" country and allow the wealthiest to retain more of their hard earned income. This stops the poor from robbing the rich. Problem is, I don't think the rich would want to livbe in the country that the poorest could afford to build. (think Mexico)

 

Is there a point when we have priced ourselves too high?

This would be a great topic to sit around and talk with you about over a couple of beers, but I don't think typing words here could do it justice, at least for me. Back in the day when I first graduated college and was looking for gainfull employment, I was pissed that the best I was finding was about $19k per year, when autoworkers who can barely read were making $30+ an hour with benefits. (I know that is an unfair statement, but at the time, that is how I felt) This country became great because we had a huge middle class, which was possible when a large part of our economy was in manufacturing. Back to autoworkers, I know of Ford employees who have second homes, boats, new cars every few years and are retired. Not bad for someone with no degree. I just think that those days are over since our economy has shifted is base away from manufacturing. too much 'keeping up with the Jones'es' going on for people to feel secure with what they need, they have to have 'more' just to keep up. Man, this is just too big for my sleep-deprived brain today.

[Texsox]

This would be a great topic to sit around and talk with you about over a couple of beers, but I don't think typing words here could do it justice, at least for me. Back in the day when I first graduated college and was looking for gainfull employment, I was pissed that the best I was finding was about $19k per year, when autoworkers who can barely read were making $30+ an hour with benefits. (I know that is an unfair statement, but at the time, that is how I felt) This country became great because we had a huge middle class, which was possible when a large part of our economy was in manufacturing. Back to autoworkers, I know of Ford employees who have second homes, boats, new cars every few years and are retired. Not bad for someone with no degree. I just think that those days are over since our economy has shifted is base away from manufacturing. too much 'keeping up with the Jones'es' going on for people to feel secure with what they need, they have to have 'more' just to keep up. Man, this is just too big for my sleep-deprived brain today.

 

Not to spin this into a comparative worth discussion, but that would be interesting as well, throughout history some of the most valuable citizens were not formally educated.

 

I'm thinking more along the lines of let's all pay the same amount in taxes. $1000, whatever. No one pays any more, or anyless, than another. That's the total gross income, now put together government services based on that amount.

[Jenksismyhero]

Not to spin this into a comparative worth discussion, but that would be interesting as well, throughout history some of the most valuable citizens were not formally educated.

 

I'm thinking more along the lines of let's all pay the same amount in taxes. $1000, whatever. No one pays any more, or anyless, than another. That's the total gross income, now put together government services based on that amount.

 

 

$1000 to someone who makes 11k a year means a whole lot more than someone who makes 11 million a year.

[mr_genius]

I'm thinking more along the lines of let's all pay the same amount in taxes. $1000

 

 

i'm all for lower taxes, but thats way too low. i think it's fine to have people with higher incomes pay slightly higher taxes, the thing i don't like is this nonsense that 60% or 70% income tax rates would be a good thing. the highest rate should be around 35% for the highest incomes, the average income should only be taxed around 20%.

Edited March 20, 2007 by mr_genius

[NorthSideSox72]

This would be a great topic to sit around and talk with you about over a couple of beers, but I don't think typing words here could do it justice, at least for me. Back in the day when I first graduated college and was looking for gainfull employment, I was pissed that the best I was finding was about $19k per year, when autoworkers who can barely read were making $30+ an hour with benefits. (I know that is an unfair statement, but at the time, that is how I felt) This country became great because we had a huge middle class, which was possible when a large part of our economy was in manufacturing. Back to autoworkers, I know of Ford employees who have second homes, boats, new cars every few years and are retired. Not bad for someone with no degree. I just think that those days are over since our economy has shifted is base away from manufacturing. too much 'keeping up with the Jones'es' going on for people to feel secure with what they need, they have to have 'more' just to keep up. Man, this is just too big for my sleep-deprived brain today.

Manufacturing is not needed for a middle class to flourish. In fact, as we move more and more away from manufacturing and towards technology and business, there is maybe even more opportunity for middle class incomes. Look at India - they basically had NO middle class (even though that had plenty of manufacturing) at all until the tech boom, which created one for them.

 

Those auto workers at Ford are the exception to the rule in manufacturing. Most manufacturing jobs in the US do not pay anything like the 100k a year plus great benefits that many of those guys are getting.

[southsider2k5]

Not to spin this into a comparative worth discussion, but that would be interesting as well, throughout history some of the most valuable citizens were not formally educated.

 

I'm thinking more along the lines of let's all pay the same amount in taxes. $1000, whatever. No one pays any more, or anyless, than another. That's the total gross income, now put together government services based on that amount.

 

$1000X 300 million people = $300 billion annually, which is a little bit more than the deficit we ran last year (about $240B if I remember right.) Our spending budget for fiscal 2008 is about $2.9 trillion, or about $10,000 per person.

[mr_genius]

Manufacturing is not needed for a middle class to flourish. In fact, as we move more and more away from manufacturing and towards technology and business, there is maybe even more opportunity for middle class incomes. Look at India - they basically had NO middle class (even though that had plenty of manufacturing) at all until the tech boom, which created one for them.

 

the problem is that much of our work force is in no way ready to do high tech jobs. our education systems sucks at teaching the mathematical and engineering sciences. we have to bring in people from other countries to do a lot of high paying engineering and computer work.

Edited March 20, 2007 by mr_genius

[Balta1701]

the problem is that much of our work force is in no way ready to do high tech jobs. our education systems sucks at teaching the mathematical and engineering sciences. we have to bring in people from other countries to do a lot of high paying engineering and computer work.

But then of course we limit the number of visas we allow for those type of workers to a number quite a bit below what could be used, cause you know, we can't have them taking our jobs.

[EvilMonkey]

the problem is that much of our work force is in no way ready to do high tech jobs. our education systems sucks at teaching the mathematical and engineering sciences. we have to bring in people from other countries to do a lot of high paying engineering and computer work.

Correct, but the people who are unequipped to handle those jobs still feel as though they are entitled to the higher pay that goes with them. So, can we abolish the NEA and actually start teaching kids things that will let them compete in the world economy, or are we gona keep teaching them that everyone gets an award just for competing, that they are 'special' , and that it's just fine that Jimmy has 2 mommies?

[Texsox]

$1000X 300 million people = $300 billion annually, which is a little bit more than the deficit we ran last year (about $240B if I remember right.) Our spending budget for fiscal 2008 is about $2.9 trillion, or about $10,000 per person.

 

So we wouldn't want to live in a country where everyone paid the same cost and everyone could "afford" to contribute. So we then we are asking some people to pay more than others. I'm guessing that most would gladly make that sacrifice. I also can agree with that.

 

So why do we have a system where people do not pay anything? One answer is we have made it so expensive to live in this country that 40% of the people can not afford to pay any income tax. Why is it so expensive to live in the US? Just buying food, clothing, and shelter is too much for some people. How can we make it cheaper to live here, without robbing from the rich and giving to the poor?

[mr_genius]

But then of course we limit the number of visas we allow for those type of workers to a number quite a bit below what could be used, cause you know, we can't have them taking our jobs.

 

IMO it's a better solution to make our education system better, rather than rely on other countries to supply us with valuable workers. we do a pretty good at the University level, but the highschool level is really bad. the US already gives out a lot of high tech visas, i don't really think it's a good idea to give out more and more just to make up for americans being so dumb. but i guess we might have to. just as long as our students take lots of diversity class in highschool we should be ok

 

So we wouldn't want to live in a country where everyone paid the same cost and everyone could "afford" to contribute. So we then we are asking some people to pay more than others. I'm guessing that most would gladly make that sacrifice. I also can agree with that.

 

So why do we have a system where people do not pay anything? One answer is we have made it so expensive to live in this country that 40% of the people can not afford to pay any income tax. Why is it so expensive to live in the US? Just buying food, clothing, and shelter is too much for some people. How can we make it cheaper to live here, without robbing from the rich and giving to the poor?

 

 

the cost of living in the US isn't that high compared to other first world countries. compare us to many European countries or Japan and you will see our cost of living is very reasonable. i'm not sure what you are trying to get at....

Edited March 20, 2007 by mr_genius

[NorthSideSox72]

Correct, but the people who are unequipped to handle those jobs still feel as though they are entitled to the higher pay that goes with them. So, can we abolish the NEA and actually start teaching kids things that will let them compete in the world economy, or are we gona keep teaching them that everyone gets an award just for competing, that they are 'special' , and that it's just fine that Jimmy has 2 mommies?

The NEA isn't the problem, and I fail to see how 2 mommies is the slightest bit relevant to the discussion. But I definitely agree that our schools in general are pretty poor at preparing kids for a positive future. Worse, there are plenty of good schools out there, but they are outweighed by the majority of schools that are not so good. Just a quick look around the Chicago area will show you a range of schools, from New Trier to De LaSalle and everything between. There is a huge range in the quality of schools.

[mr_genius]

I fail to see how 2 mommies is the slightest bit relevant to the discussion.

 

I believe he is mocking the NEA's educational priorities

[Soxy]

I believe he is mocking the NEA's educational priorities

Well, what else would you expect from a terrorist organization?

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(mr_genius @ Mar 20, 2007 -> 12:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the problem is that much of our work force is in no way ready to do high tech jobs. our education systems sucks at teaching the mathematical and engineering sciences. we have to bring in people from other countries to do a lot of high paying engineering and computer work.

So how come all the kids in my classes in college were Asian and Indian? Or were you talking about our lower level education systems?

[Texsox]

So how come all the kids in my classes in college were Asian and Indian? Or were you talking about our lower level education systems?

 

They know the best education in the world is in the US?

[mr_genius]

So how come all the kids in my classes in college were Asian and Indian? Or were you talking about our lower level education systems?

 

 

i was talking about our high schools. i said our Universities are good. The University of Illinios, for example, has an excellent computer science program. top 5 in the country, it is world renown (braggin about former school cause i'm like that ).

Edited March 20, 2007 by mr_genius

[mr_genius]

They know the best education in the world is in the US?

 

i think our Universities are the best in the world too, but there are some top Universities in Europe and Asia that might disagree with us.

 

but i doubt they are very jelous of our high school, junior high, ect. educational standards.

[EvilMonkey]

The NEA isn't the problem, and I fail to see how 2 mommies is the slightest bit relevant to the discussion. But I definitely agree that our schools in general are pretty poor at preparing kids for a positive future. Worse, there are plenty of good schools out there, but they are outweighed by the majority of schools that are not so good. Just a quick look around the Chicago area will show you a range of schools, from New Trier to De LaSalle and everything between. There is a huge range in the quality of schools.

Mr. Genius hit my intentions on the head. The lower levels of learning here in the US tend to focus on too much crap instead of what they need to compete in the world. It's not the schools job to teach acceptance of homosexuality, or the joys of communism, other than in a historical context. Teach them to speak english, read a book, do math, work a computer, etc. And for those that are just not meant for college, shop class and the trades. And yes, that is a generalization, as I realize that there are some great schools, but they are outnumbered and outweighed by the bad ones.

[Soxy]

i was talking about our high schools. i said our Universities are good. The University of Illinios, for example, has an excellent computer science program. top 5 in the country, it is world renown (braggin about former school cause i'm like that ).

I think that depends entirely on where you are from. I went to a suburban high school (very well funded) and I think my high school education would parallel anything in the world (with the excpetion of Foreign languages, which is a nationwide problem for sure). I think the problem is that there is a very large disparity between high schools in wealthy communities and high schools in poor communities. So, we're only giving a very select few a high school education that will allow them to compete.

[Texsox]

My daughter is enrolled in the International Baccalaureate program through our local public high school. Her entire class is 16 students. No additional charges to us. She is also concurrently enrolled in her regular High School for electives and the local University to pick up college credits. She is finishing her Sophomore year and will be taking college Physics this summer. When she graduates from High School, she will hold two diplomas and between 12-20 college credits. If there is a better high school program anywher in the world that is publically funded, I've never heard of it. And BTW, McAllen is one of the poorest cities in the US.

[mr_genius]

lol, you guys are cherry picking the best schools. our national average is horrible.

 

but hey, if you think the educational system is fine i'll totally belive you. i linked an article with a list of 30 countries and comparative high school math scores. the US finished 28th out of 30. we beat Mexico atleast.

 

it's also not just the really poor schools in the US that do poorly compared to the rest of the world, it's almost all the schools in the US..... funding doesn't seem to be the problem seeing that we spend as much, if not more, than most countries on education.

 

here's a link to educational spending http://www.oclc.org/reports/escan/economic...aryspending.htm

 

link to our rankings

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1207/p01s04-ussc.html

Edited March 21, 2007 by mr_genius

[Balta1701]

it's also not just the really poor schools in the US that do poorly compared to the rest of the world, it's almost all the schools in the US..... funding doesn't seem to be the problem seeing that we spend as much, if not more, than most countries on education.

Sounds like the health care refrain.

 

I'll make you a deal...we can privatize the education system if you give me a public health care system. How's that for a trade? If you'd like my side can throw in Brian Anderson as well, it doesn't look like he'll be doing anything.

[mr_genius]

Sounds like the health care refrain.

 

I'll make you a deal...we can privatize the education system if you give me a public health care system. How's that for a trade? If you'd like my side can throw in Brian Anderson as well, it doesn't look like he'll be doing anything.

 

 

actually, i think privatizing the education system is a bad idea. i also think Scott Podsednik starting for the White Sox is a bad idea.