Freddy Garcia Thread

[southsideirish]

we gave up this pile of crap and still got Gavin Floyd and Gio? Freaking amazing! What a deal!

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

With the assumption that the Phils will not resign him and he has thrown his last pitch for the Phils, the Freddy Garcia trade reminds me of the Mike Sirotka trade. Way to make another enemy Kenny!

[Dick Allen]

So, we know now why KW jumped at the phils offer. He was probably going to deal him to the first team that wouldnt do a physical before the trade. As soon as the Phils said they wouldnt, he pulled the trigger.

If KW knowingly traded a hurt player, no matter how much it benefitted the White Sox, JR should get a new GM.

Edited June 12, 2007 by Dick Allen

[CWSGuy406]

If KW knowingly traded a hurt player, no matter how much it benefitted the White Sox, JR should get a new GM.

 

So it's Kenny's fault that Philly was too stupid to have him take a physical or an MRI? We all saw last season that his MPH was down much more than anybody else on the Sox -- for Philly not to force Freddy to take a physical is just stupidity.

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

So it's Kenny's fault that Philly was too stupid to have him take a physical or an MRI? We all saw last season that his MPH was down much more than anybody else on the Sox -- for Philly not to force Freddy to take a physical is just stupidity.

While I have no argument with what you say, Dick Allen is right. This could be the 2nd time KW has traded damaged goods on a team. How do you think that makes other GM's feel when their phone rings and it is trader Kenny. No doubt Kenny has made a lot of very fair trades, but that will not be what people remember when if the Philly GM starts saying KW pulled a fast one on him.

[That funky motion]

Did Kenny get an MRI on Freddy? If not how would he know? Yes, we all knew something was up and so should have thier scouts.

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

How did he "pull a fast one"????

 

Sox fans could see something was wrong with Freddy, yet the Philadelphia organization, the organization that will be paying Freddy 10MIL this season, decided not to administer a physical. If you are going to make that sort of investment on someone/something, why wouldn't you take every avenue to make sure of his health????

Just seems like a lazy move by Philly.

 

Again, I have no disagreement with this argument. My concern is forming of the perception of "Fast Kenny" dumping tired and broken pitchers on teams. So if KW tries to shop Jose this winter, I suspect he need not even call Philly. Even though Philly should have ordered the physical, the Philly GM can try and go to the press make KW look bad/get sympathy because he got a broken Freddy Garcia. If the networks like say ...ESPN, run with it, it could damage our ability to trade in the future.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Did Kenny get an MRI on Freddy? If not how would he know? Yes, we all knew something was up and so should have thier scouts.

No. All current medical records have to be swapped before a trade is completed. Freddy's last MRI was sometime before March '06 when his velocity disappeared.

 

Freddy kept saying he was fine.

[greasywheels121]

I sure hope any GM Williams is dealing with doesn't use what Steve Phillips says as valuable information.

 

[Balta1701]

Again, I have no disagreement with this argument. My concern is forming of the perception of "Fast Kenny" dumping tired and broken pitchers on teams. So if KW tries to shop Jose this winter, I suspect he need not even call Philly. Even though Philly should have ordered the physical, the Philly GM can try and go to the press make KW look bad/get sympathy because he got a broken Freddy Garcia. If the networks like say ...ESPN, run with it, it could damage our ability to trade in the future.

I think the first line of the ESPN piece sums things up well:

Getting Freddy Garcia looked like a steal, but now the Phillies might be left empty-handed.

[Dick Allen]

I only wrote what I wrote before because I responding to a post that basically implied KW traded Freddy to Philadelphia because they wouldn't perform a physical and he knew there was something wrong. I really don't believe that. KW may have suspected something was wrong, I know I did, but the company line was he was overworked with the WBC and playoffs, and that explained his velocity loss. I just don't think it would be wise to employ someone as a GM who trades away damaged goods, and even though I am a big critic of KW, I don't believe he's quilty of that. I don't blame him for Sirotka. Toronto did give him a physical and it came up clean. Also I believe Freddy was checked out when he was having some problems earlier in the spring, and they concluded it was minor.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 06:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, I have no disagreement with this argument. My concern is forming of the perception of "Fast Kenny" dumping tired and broken pitchers on teams. So if KW tries to shop Jose this winter, I suspect he need not even call Philly. Even though Philly should have ordered the physical, the Philly GM can try and go to the press make KW look bad/get sympathy because he got a broken Freddy Garcia. If the networks like say ...ESPN, run with it, it could damage our ability to trade in the future.

I don't get your logic. Anyone trading with Kenny or any other GM should have the player take a physical. If he is shopping Jose Contreras and the Phillies want him I am sure they will have him do a physical this time before the trade is completed. If this GM or any other GM goes to the press about something like this he will look just as dumb and incompetent as the Blue Jays GM did. This does not fall on KWs shoulders - this is totally on the shoulders of the Phill's GM. If the tables were turned you would be asking for KW's head because he was so damn stupid to not have a physical done. You and Big Dick Allen have strange ways of thinking.

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

I don't get your logic. Anyone trading with Kenny or any other GM should have the player take a physical. If he is shopping Jose Contreras and the Phillies want him I am sure they will have him do a physical this time before the trade is completed. If this GM or any other GM goes to the press about something like this he will look just as dumb and incompetent as the Blue Jays GM did. This does not fall on KWs shoulders - this is totally on the shoulders of the Phill's GM. If the tables were turned you would be asking for KW's head because he was so damn stupid to not have a physical done. You and Big Dick Allen have strange ways of thinking.

 

Again, I have no problem with KW. It is the preception of other GM's since we can not trade with ourselves.

[RockRaines]

Philly probably thought they were pulling a fast one and wanted it to get done. They will learn from this next time. It turns out we may have gotten the best end of that deal making KW 2-0 on those trades.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 05:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If KW knowingly traded a hurt player, no matter how much it benefitted the White Sox, JR should get a new GM.

He did it with Sirotka.

 

Any thought of the Phils philing a grievance over this like the Reds did with Majewski?

 

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 10:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't blame him for Sirotka. Toronto did give him a physical and it came up clean.

Really? Then what was his comment "his other arm was OK" all about?

[southsider2k5]

Garcia is claiming he wasn't hurt in 06, and this arm pain is new for an interview in today's Trib.

[WCSox]

If KW knowingly traded a hurt player, no matter how much it benefitted the White Sox, JR should get a new GM.

 

What does it tell you that people on freaking Soxtalk strongly suspected that Freddy may have had an arm injury, yet the idiots in Philly never bothered to do a physical on their $10 million investment? How could Kenny "pull a fast one" on a major-league GM that he couldn't even sneak past an attentive Sox fan?

 

Completely agree. I find it very hard to beleive Williams and the Sox wouldn't let Philly do a physical on Freddy. Philadelphia made the choice to not have a physical preformed on Garcia, and they are paying for it now.

 

+1

[whitesoxfan101]

If KW knowingly traded a hurt player, no matter how much it benefitted the White Sox, JR should get a new GM.

 

I hope you aren't naive enough to think Kenny would have been the first GM to do that.

 

Garcia is claiming he wasn't hurt in 06, and this arm pain is new for an interview in today's Trib.

 

That's cute, but the velocity and the eyes of all Sox fans disagree.

[santo=dorf]

So if people are giving KW so much credit for Garcia getting hurt (and really, it's never great when the highlight of your trade is that the player you gave up is hurting,) how come more people aren't bashing for NOT trading Crede?

 

The Sox knew Crede was ailing. His value was actually somewhat high, and there was a demand for him.

[whitesoxfan101]

So if people are giving KW so much credit for Garcia getting hurt (and really, it's never great when the highlight of your trade is that the player you gave up is hurting,) how come more people aren't bashing for NOT trading Crede?

 

The Sox knew Crede was ailing. His value was actually somewhat high, and there was a demand for him.

 

Come on man, can't rip KW, he's got a RING!

[WCSox]

So if people are giving KW so much credit for Garcia getting hurt (and really, it's never great when the highlight of your trade is that the player you gave up is hurting,) how come more people aren't bashing for NOT trading Crede?

 

The Sox knew Crede was ailing. His value was actually somewhat high, and there was a demand for him.

 

That might have something to do with the fact that Crede's had these back problems for two years now, they haven't sidelined him for a significant period of time (up until now), they haven't hindered his play, and the Sox were relying on him to make another run at the WS.

 

As for the Garcia deal, if some dumbass GM wants to trade a top-tier prospect for an aging pitcher who lost 7 mph off of his fastball last season and doesn't think that an MRI is necessary, Kenny should be punished for NOT pulling the trigger. His job is to build another winning championship team, not to show the other GMs all of his cards.

 

And it's not like Kenny was hiding some super-secret information about Freddy anyway. Hell, WE knew that he was in decline and that something was possibly wrong with him. And all we do is read the papers and watch the games.

Edited June 14, 2007 by WCSox

[SoxFanForever]

He did it with Sirotka.

 

Any thought of the Phils philing a grievance over this like the Reds did with Majewski?

Really? Then what was his comment "his other arm was OK" all about?

Intentional or not, that made me laugh pretty damn hard.

[CWSGuy406]

So if people are giving KW so much credit for Garcia getting hurt (and really, it's never great when the highlight of your trade is that the player you gave up is hurting,) how come more people aren't bashing for NOT trading Crede?

 

The Sox knew Crede was ailing. His value was actually somewhat high, and there was a demand for him.

 

I'd say they're two different situations. With Garcia, the Sox had six starting pitchers and -- at the time -- McCarthy had to be in a starting rotation in 2007. I don't think anyone doubted that.

 

Can you say the same about Fields? I guess you could make the argument either way. Personally, I'd say he wasn't ready and probably would have only sucked slightly less than Crede did in the first two months. Heck, I still don't know whether Fields is ready -- I guess we will see that in the coming months.

 

Kenny Williams took a risk on Crede that his back would be okay with proper rehab. It was a shaky situation, for sure, but I think it's a gamble that you could make an argument for. Turns out Kenny lost the gamble and, unfortunately for us, the Sox are left with a big mess -- does Crede even get tendered a contract next season? Do you trade him coming off of surgery, when his value is (most likely) very low? Or do you take another risk, hope he's even healthier after the surgery and stick him at third, hoping he can repeat 2006?

 

And as far as this:

 

and really, it's never great when the highlight of your trade is that the player you gave up is hurting

 

I don't think that's the highlight of the trade. I think this is, and always has been, the highlight of the trade.

[southsider2k5]

So if people are giving KW so much credit for Garcia getting hurt (and really, it's never great when the highlight of your trade is that the player you gave up is hurting,) how come more people aren't bashing for NOT trading Crede?

The Sox knew Crede was ailing. His value was actually somewhat high, and there was a demand for him.

 

There was? I keep seeing this said, but who offered what players? The only time I saw Crede's name mentioned, it was for Chone Figgins.

[vandy125]

Just a thought to throw out there on this. Could it be that Freddy's arm was actually ok when he was traded with the only problem being that it was tired from being overworked? Since it was tired, he may have changed something mechanically that eventually led to this injury. We all know that he was a different pitcher and doing different things last year. Maybe that just caught up to him this year.

 

I don't know, I'm just throwing something out there and seeing if it will stick.