hitlesswonder Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(mr_genius @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 04:57 PM) well, maybe we could have got more for Garcia... but i think Kenny was looking for young pitchers in return, thats not something many teams give up easily. I think Williams valued Floyd based on his projected performance if he turns things around -- by that I mean he paid for Floyd's perceived ceiling not his actual performance (it's the "I think this guy will be great with us even though he's sucked elsewhere" syndrome). It doesn't seem to be working out right now though. It's almost amazing if you read the scouting reports on Floyd (like those by John Sickels) that he can get such poor results. Edited March 23, 2007 by hitlesswonder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:04 PM) And what does it say when Philadelphia was shocked with the package we asked for -- thinking it was initially a salary dump? that they thought Garcia was worth more than he actually was? they might have been the only team willing to deal a good prospect for Garcia. Edited March 23, 2007 by mr_genius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:06 PM) "Wheres our Liriano?" Garcia is garbage, yet we should have received a ton for him. More than what we received. I don't even know how you can argue this, Rock. I have supplied the proof on numerous occasions. If Philadelphia themselves were shocked our asking price was low.....then it obviously was too low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 23, 2007 Author Share Posted March 23, 2007 QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:05 PM) If we traded Garcia for Hirsh-Willy T-Buchholz, people would probably complain just as much. "Willy T is just the Latin Podsednik" "Hirsh belongs in AAA(6.17 ERA this spring,6.04 MLB ERA) "Buchholz is trash" Man Willy Taveras would look really good in LF right now. To compare Taveras to Podsednik is pretty silly too, he's 25, plays excellent defense with a major league arm and has legit speed. Just those 3 things alone make him a much more valuable commodity than Pods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:11 PM) More than what we received. I don't even know how you can argue this, Rock. I have supplied the proof on numerous occasions. If Philadelphia themselves were shocked our asking price was low.....then it obviously was too low. You actually believe it when a GM or AGM says something like that? You can't believe any of that from KW or any other GM. Its all part of the game they play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:06 PM) I think Williams valued Floyd based on his projected performance if he turns things around -- by that I mean he paid for Floyd's perceived ceiling not his actual performance (it's the "I think this guy will be great with us even though he's sucked elsewhere" syndrome). It doesn't seem to be working out right now though. It's almost amazing if you read the scouting reports on Floyd (like those by John Sickels) that he can get such poor results. This is exactly it. I don't mind the thought process of acquiring pitchers who had yet to reach their potential, but not in the instance of Gavin Floyd. And especially not from Garcia in a market where pitching was overvalued by team in the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:11 PM) If Philadelphia themselves were shocked our asking price was low.....then it obviously was too low. Chicago was suprised Philly would give up one of their top pitching prospects for a washed up starter who has lost 8 mph off his fastball . What , Because Philly thought they made a good deal that automatically means they did? ok, you're right. Garcia is gonna do great over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:05 PM) If we traded Garcia for Hirsh-Willy T-Buchholz, people would probably complain just as much. "Willy T is just the Latin Podsednik" "Hirsh belongs in AAA(6.17 ERA this spring,6.04 MLB ERA) "Buchholz is trash" Now, compare the above names to what we received for McCarthy. Jennings, mind you, is in his contract year while McCarthy has 5+ years remaining with Texas. I would have loved that from Garcia. QUOTE(mr_genius @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:16 PM) Chicago was suprised Philly would give up one of their top pitching prospects for a washed up starter who has lost 8 mph off his fastball . What , Because Philly thought they made a good deal that automatically means they did? ok, you're right. Garcia is gonna do great over there. No, Philadelphia expressing shock in our asking price proves we could have asked for more. Really, would it have been difficult to ask for one more piece? Something in addition to Floyd/Gonzalez; perhaps a low A pitching prospect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:24 PM) No, Philadelphia expressing shock in our asking price proves we could have asked for more. Really, would it have been difficult to ask for one more piece? Something in addition to Floyd/Gonzalez; perhaps a low A pitching prospect? I think they may have been playing the media. if they were really that shocked, they don't know what they're doing and KW should have totally screwed them. but i don't think that is the case, i think it is more of a public relations thing to say "check it out, Phillly fans, i just made a great deal". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 23, 2007 Author Share Posted March 23, 2007 QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:24 PM) I never said those quotes are what I actually beleive, but what people would say. I would love Taveras in LF right now. Hell, I would feel alot better about the whole CF mess if Ozzie just came out and said Taveras is our CF. I would still like to see Brian, but I also know Taveras has some upside. You and I both know people would still b**** about it, and thats really the point I was trying to make. Yeah, I know what your point was. I was just going off on a little tangent. I really don't give a s*** about the Garcia trade so this subject doesn't interest me much. The comparing Tavares to Podsednik thing bothers me because I know a lot of people have and would have made such a comparison which is pretty ridiculous. And yes people would have b****ed about it but that's mainly because there's always someone around to b**** about everything (except for the Hall signing, that was pretty much unanimous.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:29 PM) (except for the Hall signing, that was pretty much unanimous.) Hated it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 23, 2007 Author Share Posted March 23, 2007 QUOTE(mr_genius @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:28 PM) I think they may have been playing the media. if they were really that shocked, they don't know what they're doing and KW should have totally screwed them. but i don't think that is the case, i think it is more of a public relations thing to say "check it out, Phillly fans, i just made a great deal". The fact that most baseball pundits echoed Gillick's sentiments on the Garcia deal does seem to lend some credence to Flash's assessment however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:31 PM) The fact that most baseball pundits echoed Gillick's sentiments on the Garcia deal does seem to lend some credence to Flash's assessment however. maybe or maybe not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 23, 2007 Author Share Posted March 23, 2007 QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:30 PM) Hated it. Yeah well, you don't count. I forgot to add "unanimous amongst knowledgeable fans" to that sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:33 PM) Yeah well, you don't count. I forgot to add "unanimous amongst knowledgeable fans" to that sentence. I hate you, collapse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 23, 2007 Author Share Posted March 23, 2007 QUOTE(mr_genius @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:33 PM) maybe or maybe not I don't dislike Kruk as much as most people do so that doesn't really work with me. The guy actually come off as somewhat likable and intelligent when he does radio. I think he's considered a moron by most because when on TV you actually have to look at him which distracts you from what he's saying. I know you probably weren't really using Kruk specifically as someone who didn't like the Garcia trade from the Sox' perspective but I kind of wanted to say that about Kruk. QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:34 PM) I hate you, collapse. Join the club, it's already quite sizable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 (edited) i think Kruk is a dumbass. but you are correct, i was using his image to discredit baseball pundits who disagree with me. I remember when ESPN thought the 2004 Cubs had one of the "TOP 5 pitching staffs of all-time". i pretty much stopped paying attention to what they said after that. Edited March 23, 2007 by mr_genius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:31 PM) The fact that most baseball pundits echoed Gillick's sentiments on the Garcia deal does seem to lend some credence to Flash's assessment however. Well, since you said it maybe more people will believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Isnt it funny that when KW says something its considered posturing, but if another GM says something its downright law. Hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 03:11 PM) More than what we received. I don't even know how you can argue this, Rock. I have supplied the proof on numerous occasions. If Philadelphia themselves were shocked our asking price was low.....then it obviously was too low. What passes for proof to you is a 3rd party naming Rosenthal quoting an "unnamed" source in the Philly organization in print. So you have to believe some newspaper or internet dude just didnt make the whole thing up or if he got it right that Rosenthal didnt make it up or if Rosenthal got it right that the unnamed source didnt make it up. I would hate for you to be my lawyer if thats your version of proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beautox Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 nice pick off by danks, and he gets the K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 05:29 PM) Yeah, I know what your point was. I was just going off on a little tangent. I really don't give a s*** about the Garcia trade so this subject doesn't interest me much. The comparing Tavares to Podsednik thing bothers me because I know a lot of people have and would have made such a comparison which is pretty ridiculous. And yes people would have b****ed about it but that's mainly because there's always someone around to b**** about everything (except for the Hall signing, that was pretty much unanimous.) Man I love me some Willy Taveras.. sucks the Astros traded him because now I wont get to see him play anymore but he was an excellent defender who had incredible speed.. It would be great if we had him leading off for this team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 24, 2007 Author Share Posted March 24, 2007 QUOTE(Shadows @ Mar 23, 2007 -> 07:58 PM) Man I love me some Willy Taveras.. sucks the Astros traded him because now I wont get to see him play anymore but he was an excellent defender who had incredible speed.. It would be great if we had him leading off for this team You know what? It was you who recruited me for the Willy Taveras Bandwagon and I have bought in. I went back and watched some Astros games from last season on MLB.tv and I've gotta say I was impressed with Willy. The guy has an above average arm which is very uncommon for a speed player like him, he gets some pretty good reads on the ball off the bat and his blazing speed comes in handy for tracking balls down in the gaps. He's still only 25 and should improve upon his game this year, I could see him becoming one hell of a leadoff man, with that speed of his he's going to pick up a ton of infield and bunt base hits. It's really a shame the Sox couldn't work anything out with the Astros this offseason that could have included Taveras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 Watched the replay of Floyd pitching. Everything about him looks bad. His delivery/arm slot is awful, as you can pick up the ball right away. His fastball is in the 89 range, and he can't throw his offspeed pitch over the plate. He is nowhere near having good control, and that's what his downfall is right now. I'll make the prediction that he won't have an ERA under 4.50 in AAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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