Haeger to AAA

[Capn12]

I think its really safe to say that Haegar didn't deserve a roster spot in the pen at this point, even if I wanted him there myself. He didn't show alot really, "Arizona thin air" or not.

 

In all reality, we have to look at the pen like this:

 

2 Spots left, assuming we go with 11 pitchers which is most likely.

 

1) At this point, Logan seems as close to a lock as there is.

2) Sisco(Best choice IMO), Floyd, Aardsma are all vying for the last spot.

 

Aardsma kinda makes me cringe. Floyd, well I've not seen anything that really says he can get anyone out consistently. Sisco at least has been going after hitters.

 

Giving up hits is one thing as a reliever. Coming in from the 'pen, and walking guys is inexcusable though.

[NorthSideSox72]

Floyd doesn't deserve a spot in the bullpen. It's ridiculous, and I'm betting such a decision is Williams way of proving the Garcia trade provided us with an immediate piece for 2007. Several of our scouts should be holding their collars, as it is.

 

Some of you will doubt this, but honestly -- is the spring training performances between the two pitchers really that different? In about four more innings pitched Floyd has given up three more earned runs, four more hits, three more walks, and one additional strikeout.

 

Yes, Floyd will limit stolen bases and past balls far better than Haeger; but he won't be as durable, or as better overall.

 

I just hope if the final decision is made to give Floyd a bullpen position, and he's absolutely killing us come midseason, he's sent down to Charlotte until September. The major leagues isn't an area for someone such as Gavin to revive his career. It just irritates me to think about this. Seriously, if Haeger is almost equaling Floyd in Arizona with a knuckleball, what does that say about Gavin?

Agree. Haeger doesn't get much out of AAA anymore, but I think Floyd needs a year starting there to get consistent. I hope to see Haeger in the pen sooner rather than later, or in the rotation of something goes wrong there.

[NorthSideSox72]

I get so tired of seeing this line of thought.

 

Unless the relievers are getting rocked, the batters aren't going to face the same reliever more than once.

Our 9th inning guy is Jenks, and our 8th inning guys are Thornton and MacDougal. So Haeger comes into the 7th at the latest, probably relieving one of our non-flamethrowing starter.

Maybe you missed the point. No one is syaing that batters are going to face the same reliever more than once. So as a hitter, you get 2-3 at bats against a starter (throwing, say, 90-92), then you get Haeger (65), then maybe one of Jenks/Thornton/MMac at the end, at 95+. Not every hitter will get that same lineup of pitchers of course, but some will. That is the line of thought, and it does have some validity.

[heirdog]

The thing about all the young guys we traded for is that only Danks has a legitimate chance to be anything more than a 4th starter in his career.

 

Can you really deduce that already? Its a crapshoot because on a team with unbelievable pitching ('90s Braves), your theory might hold true but on an average MLB staff, a lot of these guys could project higher. Yes, they are prospects but just like no one can be crowned a future ace right now, I don't think you can absolutely state the pessimistic view at this point either. Garland is a #2 for us now and you would have never thought he would have been better than a #4 or #5... 4 years ago.

[CanOfCorn]

Which, honestly, we have enough of.

 

If Williams deals an additional veteran next offseason for a package anywhere close to the Garcia deal I may lose my mind. Especially if it's similar to this year where a comparable pitcher commands a far better return.

 

I don't know how you can say that...Freddy ain't exactly lighting up the Grapefruit leagues right now. I think you need to remember that Gio was probably the cornerstone and Floyd was the throw-in. Plus, Floyd's still young, still has potential, and if he can even get CLOSE to maybe a Javier Vazquez line, someone will want him based on "potential."

[Gregory Pratt]

Floyd's going to be handed a reliever's position to save face.

Oh no.

[nitetrain8601]

I don't know how you can say that...Freddy ain't exactly lighting up the Grapefruit leagues right now. I think you need to remember that Gio was probably the cornerstone and Floyd was the throw-in. Plus, Floyd's still young, still has potential, and if he can even get CLOSE to maybe a Javier Vazquez line, someone will want him based on "potential."

 

Exactly. Floyd was thrown in sort of as a project. In my eyes, the deal was made to get Gio back.

[TitoMB345]

Lets say Aardsma makes the bullpen and Sisco and Floyd are both sent down. Sisco would most likely be a starter, correct? We would have probably 7 starters in AAA...

 

Phillips, Haeger, Gio, Sisco, Floyd, Broadway, Russell?, I know I am forgetting someone.

Wasn't Russell reassigned to AA? I could be wrong.. let me check.

 

Hmm maybe I made that up.

[Balta1701]

Agree. Haeger doesn't get much out of AAA anymore, but I think Floyd needs a year starting there to get consistent. I hope to see Haeger in the pen sooner rather than later, or in the rotation of something goes wrong there.

I dunno, I think that Charlie probably has some more he could learn from AAA as well. Maybe more than Floyd, given how much time each of them has spent there. Charlie's still only 2 seasons removed from starting the year in high-A ball, and he did struggle for a lot of the 2nd half last year. He has to work on throwing more strikes with the knuckler, and he's only been throwing it for a couple years, so the more work, the better.

 

Based on how they performed this spring, Floyd to the pen where Cooper gets to keep working with him and Haeger to AAA where he can work on throwing strikes is as good of a gamble as any other one we could have made.

[NorthSideSox72]

I dunno, I think that Charlie probably has some more he could learn from AAA as well. Maybe more than Floyd, given how much time each of them has spent there. Charlie's still only 2 seasons removed from starting the year in high-A ball, and he did struggle for a lot of the 2nd half last year. He has to work on throwing more strikes with the knuckler, and he's only been throwing it for a couple years, so the more work, the better.

 

Based on how they performed this spring, Floyd to the pen where Cooper gets to keep working with him and Haeger to AAA where he can work on throwing strikes is as good of a gamble as any other one we could have made.

Floyd needs consistency and confidence, and he isn't getting those in the Sox' pen. Haeger needs a new challenge, after how well he did in AAA last year (his spring numbers I question, given the knuckle thing in dry high air), and still was almost as good as Floyd in ST. I guess I just see different needs in those two than you do.

[Balta1701]

Floyd needs consistency and confidence, and he isn't getting those in the Sox' pen. Haeger needs a new challenge, after how well he did in AAA last year (his spring numbers I question, given the knuckle thing in dry high air), and still was almost as good as Floyd in ST. I guess I just see different needs in those two than you do.

All I'm going to say to support my case is this: Charlie's splits from last year.

W L ERA

Pre All-Star 10 2 1.95

Post All-Star 4 4 5.19

[NorthSideSox72]

All I'm going to say to support my case is this: Charlie's splits from last year.

True. Also...

 

5.64 ERA in July, then 4.65 in August, including 1.56 in his last 3 outings. After his call-up mid-year, he went home and struggled, then got it together. That tells me something as well.

 

Not disagreeing with what you are getting at, just pointing out that he didn't fall apart as the year went on, as the numbers seemed to indicate. He struggled after the call-up, then picked it up again.

[Felix]

Personally, I'm glad he was sent back down. I'm fine with knuckleballers in the starting rotations, but in the bullpen? I don't think my heart could handle that.

[wcw2323]

I personally don't think KW is enamored with Charlie. Cooper and Ozzie seem to say positive things about him, but KW is not convinced. It's too bad...here's a kid that has nothing to prove and who has led his team in wins the last two years. He was a AA All-Star, AAA All-Star, and was very effective last September. Charlie is a victim of circumstances. I'll bet that every guy KW traded for this off season ends up on the 25 man roster. Thus far, Danks, (who deserves the spot), Masset, Sisco, and Aardsma look like they will be with the team. I think it's an ego/saving face thing with Kenny.

The White Sox coaching staff understood that the environment in AZ was not conducive to the knuckler. Charlie should have been graded on his successes last year vs. how he performed this spring. Hopefully, he sees the big picture and heads to Charlotte with something to prove. My hope is that he is brought back to the show and proves himself in either a spot starter role or long relief.

[witesoxfan]

Charlie Haeger, 2006 stats

 

3.44 ERA

4.91 UERA

 

...you know, just saying

[NorthSideSox72]

Charlie Haeger, 2006 stats

 

3.44 ERA

4.91 UERA

 

...you know, just saying

That seems to happen a lot to knucklers, no? That is definitely something to consider. Also, I wonder what that spread is for other pitchers at the AAA level.

[elrockinMT]

Haeger has all kinds of upside, but just didn't show it this spring. Russell and him will be in the bigs sooner than later. I'll be interested to see how this shakes out with the bullpen. Logan probably leads in the lefty reliever race, but last yer he looked real good coming out of spring training and then blew it.

[WSoxMatt]

Haeger has all kinds of upside, but just didn't show it this spring. Russell and him will be in the bigs sooner than later. I'll be interested to see how this shakes out with the bullpen. Logan probably leads in the lefty reliever race, but last yer he looked real good coming out of spring training and then blew it.

 

I would think they are more inclined to take Sisco out of camp over Boone

[Kalapse]

Charlie Haeger, 2006 stats

 

3.44 ERA

4.91 UERA

 

...you know, just saying

Oh man I love UERA like Buehrle's 5.47 from last season or the 4.31 for his career. The guy just has an inordinate amount of runs scored on him that are not earned.

[witesoxfan]

That seems to happen a lot to knucklers, no? That is definitely something to consider. Also, I wonder what that spread is for other pitchers at the AAA level.

 

those are his major league numbers, so they're a little misleading, but his UERA in Charlotte was still about 70 points higher than his ERA. In comparison, Gavin Floyd's was 23 points higher (4.23 opposed to 4.46), while John Danks' was almost a full run higher (ERA of 4.24 in the minors, UERA of 5.21). It really depends, but that type of trend does occur quite a bit with other knucklers, you are right.

 

Tim Wakefield - 4.30 ERA 4.92 UERA

Steve Sparks - 4.88 ERA 5.46 UERA

Tom Candiotti - 3.73 ERA 4.25 UERA

Wilbur Wood - 3.24 ERA 3.79 UERA

 

Which is just part of the reason I really don't like Haeger all that much. If he had value, I think he would have been gone by now, because they are just far too inconsistent to be counted on, even as a number 5 starter. It's possible he'll be a very durable and versatile pitcher over his career, but I just don't think it's with the Sox.

[wcw2323]

If he's not in their long term plans, then they should either release him or trade him. Let the kid go to a team that will appreciate having a pitcher with the best record in minor league baseball the past two years. If he was a traditional pitcher, he would be on the club! As long as the Sox are located in AZ for spring training, he will have a very difficult time making the club if they only base their decision on his spring stats. I think the Sox are being very unfair to Haeger. He has nothing else to prove in AAA!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

those are his major league numbers, so they're a little misleading, but his UERA in Charlotte was still about 70 points higher than his ERA. In comparison, Gavin Floyd's was 23 points higher (4.23 opposed to 4.46), while John Danks' was almost a full run higher (ERA of 4.24 in the minors, UERA of 5.21). It really depends, but that type of trend does occur quite a bit with other knucklers, you are right.

 

Tim Wakefield - 4.30 ERA 4.92 UERA

Steve Sparks - 4.88 ERA 5.46 UERA

Tom Candiotti - 3.73 ERA 4.25 UERA

Wilbur Wood - 3.24 ERA 3.79 UERA

 

Which is just part of the reason I really don't like Haeger all that much. If he had value, I think he would have been gone by now, because they are just far too inconsistent to be counted on, even as a number 5 starter. It's possible he'll be a very durable and versatile pitcher over his career, but I just don't think it's with the Sox.

[southsider2k5]

If he's not in their long term plans, then they should either release him or trade him. Let the kid go to a team that will appreciate having a pitcher with the best record in minor league baseball the past two years. If he was a traditional pitcher, he would be on the club! As long as the Sox are located in AZ for spring training, he will have a very difficult time making the club if they only base their decision on his spring stats. I think the Sox are being very unfair to Haeger. He has nothing else to prove in AAA!

 

How are they being unfair exactly? The Sox aren't an employment agency, they are a major league baeball club. If they don't feel Chuck is one of their best 11 pitchers, then they need to send him down to Charlotte. Its not about proving anything in the minors, its about proving that you are better than any of the other pitchers on the major league roster, and Chuck did not have a good enough spring to prove that.

[wcw2323]

You are correct, and he most likely never will in the AZ dry conditions. So to be realistic and fair, they need to judge him on his historical performances or send him to a team that has a FL based spring training location!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

How are they being unfair exactly? The Sox aren't an employment agency, they are a major league baeball club. If they don't feel Chuck is one of their best 11 pitchers, then they need to send him down to Charlotte. Its not about proving anything in the minors, its about proving that you are better than any of the other pitchers on the major league roster, and Chuck did not have a good enough spring to prove that.

[wcw2323]

There's a story in the Tribune regarding the Rockies GM being interested in Charlie. Apparently they have offered up a back up catcher in exchange. That would be great for Charlie and Kenny. Since CO is a National League team, Charlie couldn't come back to haunt him! Charlie could step into their rotation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are correct, and he most likely never will in the AZ dry conditions. So to be realistic and fair, they need to judge him on his historical performances or send him to a team that has a FL based spring training location!!!!

[NorthSideSox72]

There's a story in the Tribune regarding the Rockies GM being interested in Charlie. Apparently they have offered up a back up catcher in exchange. That would be great for Charlie and Kenny. Since CO is a National League team, Charlie couldn't come back to haunt him! Charlie could step into their rotation.

That's weird, since the two MLB cities you'd think a knuckle-baller would be least successful in are Phoenix and Denver. High, dry air is not good for them.