Super Cool Article on Pitchers from ESPN

[LVSoxFan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/preview07/co...&id=2809709

 

Interesting stuff. I thought Jenks hit triple digits more than he did. Although he has that nasty curveball to use too. Zumaya, though: what a monster.

[Balta1701]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/preview07/co...&id=2809709

 

Interesting stuff. I thought Jenks hit triple digits more than he did. Although he has that nasty curveball to use too. Zumaya, though: what a monster.

Jenks hit triple digits a ton in 05, but very few times in 06. His 05 number might have looked like Zumaya's if he was up the whole season, but he never got back to that level last year.

[G&T]

According to the first chart, the numbers are based on the TV radar guns. Those are notoriously wrong. If the same was used to compile the second chart, then the numbers could be skewed between each pitcher. That's not to say Zumaya doesn't throw the hardest, but it might mean he didn't top 100 mph 233 times.

 

This has nothing to do with the actual article, which is good.

[LVSoxFan]

Yeah I think the point of the article was more than velocity is needed.

 

But LOL at the rules of those no-brainer guys...

[hi8is]

Cubs David Aardsma 101mph

 

 

hah

[bschmaranz]

Did it list who led the Cubs in MPH in simulated games?

[SoxFanForever]

Did it list who led the Cubs in MPH in simulated games?

Can you measure how fast towels are whipped forward?

[kevo880]

that said thornton hit 101 5 times last year? i was unaware he did it even once.

[GreenSox]

If we are obsessed with velocity, why do we draft control pitchers, not stuff pitchers, with our high draft choices?

[witesoxfan]

If we are obsessed with velocity, why do we draft control pitchers, not stuff pitchers, with our high draft choices?

 

they can't develop them for s***

[Kalapse]

they can't develop them for s***

They'd rather spend their late 1st round picks on safe pitchers who will travel through the system quickly and hold solid trade value then later trade off these meh starters for failed former top 15 picks who have great arms but s*** control and mechanics then allow the major league coaching staff to fix their mechanics and refine their control turning them into quality major league arms. I'm not so sure this method has ever even been put to use by the organization but it seems to be the plan.

[witesoxfan]

They'd rather spend their late 1st round picks on safe pitchers who will travel through the system quickly and hold solid trade value then later trade off these meh starters for failed former top 15 picks who have great arms but s*** control and mechanics then allow the major league coaching staff to fix their mechanics and refine their control turning them into quality major league arms. I'm not so sure this method has ever even been put to use by the organization but it seems to be the plan.

 

As much as I have slurped Floyd, he has been pretty much mediocre as hell so far. I haven't been able to watch him pitch - something about not working and being in school and $120 is a lot of money and beer - but from what it sounds like, his stuff is OK, but he's been conservative as hell and is nibbling. That's the mentality that needs to be changed at AAA. If it's also mechanics, whatever, get that fixed too. Guys with stuff that are that close aren't bad choices to make, but you should never make them cornerstone pieces of deals, like as with the Garcia trade. The Sox should have gotten him for someone like Egbert or Haeger, not a guy who was solid, though unspectacular and declining last year in Freddy Garcia.

 

Thornton, however, was a brilliant pickup, and what I've said above is not to say Floyd can't become a back end or even front end starter; it just means you can't put all your eggs into the basket of a guy who had a 4.23 ERA in AAA last year. I know the Sox got Gio back as well, but right now he is easily the biggest boom or bust prospect in the entire Sox system. That's not exactly the type of trade you want for a middle of the rotation starting pitcher.

[GoSox05]

Jamie Moyer is my favorite flame tosser.

[caulfield12]

They'd rather spend their late 1st round picks on safe pitchers who will travel through the system quickly and hold solid trade value then later trade off these meh starters for failed former top 15 picks who have great arms but s*** control and mechanics then allow the major league coaching staff to fix their mechanics and refine their control turning them into quality major league arms. I'm not so sure this method has ever even been put to use by the organization but it seems to be the plan.

 

Then you need the White Sox to bottom out and get a Top 10 draft pick for the first time in almost 20 years, since the Himes Regime. We've been too good or "mediocre" during that time span, I think we're third to the Braves and Yankees for wins during that time period (1990-2006), a trivia question almost no baseball fan would get right.

 

We've had our share of disappointments, due to non-performance and injuries.....notably Stumm, Honel, Malone, Rauch, Danny Wright, Barcelo, Ginter, Guerrier, Myette, Liotta, Brian West.

 

We've also drafted kids with potential (Russell, McCarthy) in lower rounds, but KW has gone for collegiate pitchers like Ring, Broadway and McCullogh, pitchers that will probably make the majors but not All-Stars...more like 4/5 types, you can include Haeger and Phillips in that mix as well.

 

Loaiza, Contreras and Thornton have been the biggest successes for Cooper. The jury's still out on Vazquez.

 

When you consider we've produced Crede, a fourth outfielder (Rowand), Buehrle and little else, and our biggest impact player (Borchard) was a complete bust, KW has done an amazing job filling in those gaps with small and big trades to compensate for a bottom third minor league system (since 2000-01).

 

As much as I have slurped Floyd, he has been pretty much mediocre as hell so far. I haven't been able to watch him pitch - something about not working and being in school and $120 is a lot of money and beer - but from what it sounds like, his stuff is OK, but he's been conservative as hell and is nibbling. That's the mentality that needs to be changed at AAA. If it's also mechanics, whatever, get that fixed too. Guys with stuff that are that close aren't bad choices to make, but you should never make them cornerstone pieces of deals, like as with the Garcia trade. The Sox should have gotten him for someone like Egbert or Haeger, not a guy who was solid, though unspectacular and declining last year in Freddy Garcia.

 

Thornton, however, was a brilliant pickup, and what I've said above is not to say Floyd can't become a back end or even front end starter; it just means you can't put all your eggs into the basket of a guy who had a 4.23 ERA in AAA last year. I know the Sox got Gio back as well, but right now he is easily the biggest boom or bust prospect in the entire Sox system. That's not exactly the type of trade you want for a middle of the rotation starting pitcher.

 

 

The Phillies wanted to dump Floyd on someone else, and this allowed them to save face. He just needed a change of environment, similar to Borchard and Thornton last spring.

 

The key part of the deal was Gio. And where would we be with Garcia right now? The same place that everyone suspected, a pitcher throwing 80-84/85 MPH and relying on breaking stuff and maybe on the DL or facing season-ending surgery for an impingement in his shoulder.

 

We're better off with Gio NOW than waiting 3-4 years for a pitcher or two that MIGHT develop into something of use. Anything we can get out of Floyd or Rasner is a bonus.

[Controlled Chaos]

Then you need the White Sox to bottom out and get a Top 10 draft pick for the first time in almost 20 years, since the Himes Regime. We've been too good or "mediocre" during that time span, I think we're third to the Braves and Yankees for wins during that time period (1990-2006), a trivia question almost no baseball fan would get right.

 

We've had our share of disappointments, due to non-performance and injuries.....notably Stumm, Honel, Malone, Rauch, Danny Wright, Barcelo, Ginter, Guerrier, Myette, Liotta, Brian West.

 

We've also drafted kids with potential (Russell, McCarthy) in lower rounds, but KW has gone for collegiate pitchers like Ring, Broadway and McCullogh, pitchers that will probably make the majors but not All-Stars...more like 4/5 types, you can include Haeger and Phillips in that mix as well.

 

Loaiza, Contreras and Thornton have been the biggest successes for Cooper. The jury's still out on Vazquez.

 

When you consider we've produced Crede, a fourth outfielder (Rowand), Buehrle and little else, and our biggest impact player (Borchard) was a complete bust, KW has done an amazing job filling in those gaps with small and big trades to compensate for a bottom third minor league system (since 2000-01).

The Phillies wanted to dump Floyd on someone else, and this allowed them to save face. He just needed a change of environment, similar to Borchard and Thornton last spring.

 

The key part of the deal was Gio. And where would we be with Garcia right now? The same place that everyone suspected, a pitcher throwing 80-84/85 MPH and relying on breaking stuff and maybe on the DL or facing season-ending surgery for an impingement in his shoulder.

 

We're better off with Gio NOW than waiting 3-4 years for a pitcher or two that MIGHT develop into something of use. Anything we can get out of Floyd or Rasner is a bonus.

 

Dude, you are like the epitome of what a new poster should be. Kudos and welcome to the board.

 

[caulfield12]

Dude, you are like the epitome of what a new poster should be. Kudos and welcome to the board.

 

 

Thanks, I've posted for the last year and a half or so at WSI.

 

I used to fight with ncorgbl on chisox.com for about 4 years. There aren't many good posters left at chisox.com (baggio is one), too many trolls and kids.

 

I'm a teacher and coach now in Kansas City. Prior to that, I was Director of PR and Stadium Operations for the Augusta GreenJackets in 1994 and 1995, right after grad school. We were with the Pittsburgh Pirates at that point and won the SAL championship in 95. I got to know Dye (Macon), Andruw Jones, Vladimir Guerrero when they were just babies (Dye used my office phone, lol) and spent a lot of time with the mercurial, always-interesting Jose Guillen.

[BFirebird]

Thanks, I've posted for the last year and a half or so at WSI.

 

I used to fight with ncorgbl on chisox.com for about 4 years. There aren't many good posters left at chisox.com (baggio is one), too many trolls and kids.

 

I'm a teacher and coach now in Kansas City. Prior to that, I was Director of PR and Stadium Operations for the Augusta GreenJackets in 1994 and 1995, right after grad school. We were with the Pittsburgh Pirates at that point and won the SAL championship in 95. I got to know Dye (Macon), Andruw Jones, Vladimir Guerrero when they were just babies (Dye used my office phone, lol) and spent a lot of time with the mercurial, always-interesting Jose Guillen.

Very cool. I am jealous.

[witesoxfan]

The Phillies wanted to dump Floyd on someone else, and this allowed them to save face. He just needed a change of environment, similar to Borchard and Thornton last spring.

 

The key part of the deal was Gio. And where would we be with Garcia right now? The same place that everyone suspected, a pitcher throwing 80-84/85 MPH and relying on breaking stuff and maybe on the DL or facing season-ending surgery for an impingement in his shoulder.

 

We're better off with Gio NOW than waiting 3-4 years for a pitcher or two that MIGHT develop into something of use. Anything we can get out of Floyd or Rasner is a bonus.

 

Where we would be with Garcia right now is not the point. The point is the White Sox got two boom or bust prospects for a solid starting pitcher, with both of them having shady backgrounds. KW couldn't have gotten one prospect who looks like he's actually starting to figure things out for Garcia? That's my problem with the trade, and nothing beyond that.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, and while Garcia does indeed look like s***, he didn't look this s***ty in December. To get a 5'10 LHP with injury concerns and mediocre control in AA along with a throw-in for a guy coming off of a 4.53 ERA, 215 IP year is unacceptable, period.

[caulfield12]

Where we would be with Garcia right now is not the point. The point is the White Sox got two boom or bust prospects for a solid starting pitcher, with both of them having shady backgrounds. KW couldn't have gotten one prospect who looks like he's actually starting to figure things out for Garcia? That's my problem with the trade, and nothing beyond that.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, and while Garcia does indeed look like s***, he didn't look this s***ty in December. To get a 5'10 LHP with injury concerns and mediocre control in AA along with a throw-in for a guy coming off of a 4.53 ERA, 215 IP year is unacceptable, period.

 

 

Every pitching prospect, by nature, is boom or bust.

 

Who do you think you could have gotten for Garcia? Homer Bailey? Phillip Hughes?

 

Is KW going to feel sorry for Daniels if Danks is better than McCarthy THIS year? Is he going to give them back Masset and Rasner?

 

The concerns about Gio's frame are overblown IMO, until he starts to show injury problems. Right now, as with most Sox "high upside" minor league pitchers, the issue is control and location.

[Balta1701]

The concerns about Gio's frame are overblown IMO, until he starts to show injury problems. Right now, as with most Sox "high upside" minor league pitchers, the issue is control and location.

Gio did miss some time with a few injuries in 2005, although nothing hugely serious if i recall correctly. He only threw about 120 innings that year. Last year he threw 150.

[ChiSoxLifer]

Where we would be with Garcia right now is not the point. The point is the White Sox got two boom or bust prospects for a solid starting pitcher, with both of them having shady backgrounds. KW couldn't have gotten one prospect who looks like he's actually starting to figure things out for Garcia? That's my problem with the trade, and nothing beyond that.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, and while Garcia does indeed look like s***, he didn't look this s***ty in December. To get a 5'10 LHP with injury concerns and mediocre control in AA along with a throw-in for a guy coming off of a 4.53 ERA, 215 IP year is unacceptable, period.

 

 

Holy crap. If KW knew enough to trade a pitcher who can barely throw a fastball above 87 mph, don't you think GMs and scouts knew that too? Garcia did not win 17 games because he was a solid pitcher. He won 17 games because the Sox offense saved his ass. I even read articles last summer where scouts said Garcia's done. Now if scouts, GMs, and most fans who watched him pitch knew that, do you think any GM in his right mind would offer much for Freddy? This spring has shown what everyone (except maybe you) knew. Freddy hasn't gotten the ball past 84 mph and is already hurt. Get off it already.

[LVSoxFan]

Thanks, I've posted for the last year and a half or so at WSI.

 

I used to fight with ncorgbl on chisox.com for about 4 years. There aren't many good posters left at chisox.com (baggio is one), too many trolls and kids.

 

I'm a teacher and coach now in Kansas City. Prior to that, I was Director of PR and Stadium Operations for the Augusta GreenJackets in 1994 and 1995, right after grad school. We were with the Pittsburgh Pirates at that point and won the SAL championship in 95. I got to know Dye (Macon), Andruw Jones, Vladimir Guerrero when they were just babies (Dye used my office phone, lol) and spent a lot of time with the mercurial, always-interesting Jose Guillen.

 

Welcome, and good first posts.

 

Dude, a bunch of us here are refugees from WSI, myself included. That's an excellent site, resource-wise, but I think you'll find posting here refreshing.

[witesoxfan]

Holy crap. If KW knew enough to trade a pitcher who can barely throw a fastball above 87 mph, don't you think GMs and scouts knew that too? Garcia did not win 17 games because he was a solid pitcher. He won 17 games because the Sox offense saved his ass. I even read articles last summer where scouts said Garcia's done. Now if scouts, GMs, and most fans who watched him pitch knew that, do you think any GM in his right mind would offer much for Freddy? This spring has shown what everyone (except maybe you) knew. Freddy hasn't gotten the ball past 84 mph and is already hurt. Get off it already.

 

I dunno, ask Omar Minaya, Bill Stoneman, Tim Purpura, Josh Byrnes, Bill Bavasi, and probably a few others as well (Cashman? Epstein? Krivsky? Ricciardi?) if they were interested in Freddy Garcia at any point this past offseason. I think they'll probably tell you they inquired.

 

If at any point in time half of those GMs talked to the White Sox about Freddy Garcia, then the lack of value KW got for Garcia is inexcusable.

 

If you had watched Freddy Garcia's last month in a White Sox uniform, you would have seen a guy who seemed to have learned how to throw with garbage by adding a split finger into his repertoire; also, there was the possibility that it wasn't any type of injury but rather starting at 100% for the WBC that caused for his lack of velocity throughout the year. It seems pretty apparent to me atleast that Garcia had value, albeit slightly diminished due to having one year left on his deal. The fact remains that the only two things Jason Jennings had on Freddy Garcia were age and production in 2006 - and what also must be considered is that Jennings pitched in the NL while Garcia the AL in a year when the AL was much superior in terms of offense opposed to the NL, and on top of that, Garcia pitched in the AL Central, which featured 4 of the top 8 offenses in the AL. That will increase a pitcher's ERA too.

 

Flat out what I'm trying to say is that by looking at the numbers, looking at how he pitched in September upon developing his new split finger, and looking at the market for starting pitchers - with Jennings being the best comparison to Garcia on the trade market - KW failed in getting both value and talent. If that is the absolute best offer KW had on the table, and KW told me that to my face, I'd probably call him a liar to his face (in a much more polite way), because atleast value wise, it's just almost not possible. Talent wise, maybe he got enough, but Philadelphia was looking to give Floyd away and Gio was coming off of a mediocre year in AA, while a guy like Jason Hirsh had simply spectacular numbers (though slightly above average peripherals), Taylor Buchholz was an acceptable major league 5th starter, and Willy Taveras stole 33 bases and became a more patient hitter last year. If you compare those packages, Colorado's is far and away superior. If you include Greg Golson from Philadelphia - a guy the White Sox could turn into something very good - then the trade is justified in my mind, even seeing as how Golson's been mediocre as hell and is 22 in A ball.

 

Using this "look at him now, he still sucks, maybe he's worse" at this point is completely pointless and holds no grounds, because I am talking about something that happened in December and not March. If that's what you're trying to argue, I'd suggest you stop, because you're arguing oranges to my apples.

[caulfield12]

I dunno, ask Omar Minaya, Bill Stoneman, Tim Purpura, Josh Byrnes, Bill Bavasi, and probably a few others as well (Cashman? Epstein? Krivsky? Ricciardi?) if they were interested in Freddy Garcia at any point this past offseason. I think they'll probably tell you they inquired.

 

If at any point in time half of those GMs talked to the White Sox about Freddy Garcia, then the lack of value KW got for Garcia is inexcusable.

 

If you had watched Freddy Garcia's last month in a White Sox uniform, you would have seen a guy who seemed to have learned how to throw with garbage by adding a split finger into his repertoire; also, there was the possibility that it wasn't any type of injury but rather starting at 100% for the WBC that caused for his lack of velocity throughout the year. It seems pretty apparent to me atleast that Garcia had value, albeit slightly diminished due to having one year left on his deal. The fact remains that the only two things Jason Jennings had on Freddy Garcia were age and production in 2006 - and what also must be considered is that Jennings pitched in the NL while Garcia the AL in a year when the AL was much superior in terms of offense opposed to the NL, and on top of that, Garcia pitched in the AL Central, which featured 4 of the top 8 offenses in the AL. That will increase a pitcher's ERA too.

 

Flat out what I'm trying to say is that by looking at the numbers, looking at how he pitched in September upon developing his new split finger, and looking at the market for starting pitchers - with Jennings being the best comparison to Garcia on the trade market - KW failed in getting both value and talent. If that is the absolute best offer KW had on the table, and KW told me that to my face, I'd probably call him a liar to his face (in a much more polite way), because atleast value wise, it's just almost not possible. Talent wise, maybe he got enough, but Philadelphia was looking to give Floyd away and Gio was coming off of a mediocre year in AA, while a guy like Jason Hirsh had simply spectacular numbers (though slightly above average peripherals), Taylor Buchholz was an acceptable major league 5th starter, and Willy Taveras stole 33 bases and became a more patient hitter last year. If you compare those packages, Colorado's is far and away superior. If you include Greg Golson from Philadelphia - a guy the White Sox could turn into something very good - then the trade is justified in my mind, even seeing as how Golson's been mediocre as hell and is 22 in A ball.

 

Using this "look at him now, he still sucks, maybe he's worse" at this point is completely pointless and holds no grounds, because I am talking about something that happened in December and not March. If that's what you're trying to argue, I'd suggest you stop, because you're arguing oranges to my apples.

 

 

But if the Astros turned down Garland for Buchholz, Taveras (when we wanted to include Hirsch as well), how can you argue that KW would have gotten anything close to that for Garcia?

 

Garland has a lot more value than Garcia. I guess we'll never know, because the rumor was that Buchholz failed his physical and/or the Astros didn't want to include Hirsch as well in the deal.

 

It's all kind of a mystery, why the Astros would want Jennings over Garland, perhaps simply because he's left-handed, they were more familiar with him and Jennings' contract was more reasonable from a financial perspective, giving them more room to go after Clemens, etc.

[BearSox]

But if the Astros turned down Garland for Buchholz, Taveras (when we wanted to include Hirsch as well), how can you argue that KW would have gotten anything close to that for Garcia?

 

Garland has a lot more value than Garcia. I guess we'll never know, because the rumor was that Buchholz failed his physical and/or the Astros didn't want to include Hirsch as well in the deal.

 

It's all kind of a mystery, why the Astros would want Jennings over Garland, perhaps simply because he's left-handed, they were more familiar with him and Jennings' contract was more reasonable from a financial perspective, giving them more room to go after Clemens, etc.

Jennings bats lefty... but he pitches righty. He did put up some darn good numbers last year given that he did have to pitch half of his games in a hitters dream land. Plus, like you said, his contract would probably be more reasonable. He was a former ROY, wasn't he?