An optimistic viewpoint

[Kalapse]

defense, batter's eye, hustle, two world series rings.

 

And I wouldn't call Brosius or Borders "terrible baseball players" either.

Anderson's still better

David Eckstein has always had trouble drawing walks, atleast that was the case when he played in the American League, not to tough to do that in the NL Central. He has the worst infield arm in the history of baseball as well as lackluster range, yeah he does hustle the guy's a grinder I wouldn't expect any less. Timo Perez and Scott Spezio also have 2 world series rings, so yeah I don't care. If you're going to pay a secondbaseman $5M a year I'll take Iguchi over Eck every day of the week.

[SoxAce]

At the time of the trade, I would say it was 75% upset at losing Miles, 25% excited that Uribe could get it turned around with a change of scenery and a coaching staff and clubhouse that might push him to improve his work habits.

 

First of all, your way off, more people were happy that we got Uribe and was excited about his potential. I loved Miles and so did most of the posters but we knew he wasn't our long term solution and was just a AAA player for us basically. And secondly, how in the hell would you know? You weren't even around here at the time. Other than that, I agree with you.

Edited March 29, 2007 by SoxAce

[NorthSideSox72]

Anderson's still better

He is.

 

But, I do thank RME for putting those numbers out there, they do actually make me feel a tad bit better. Not spectacularly, but a little.

 

And Ginger, you are correct that the great majority of talent and skill that made this team very good in the past couple years is still there. That's why they will be a competitive team. But its those little differences - who plays CF, who the front 1 or 2 are in the pen, etc. - that can mean 1st, 2nd or 3rd place in a tough division like the AL Central.

[caulfield12]

They're not terrible ballplayers, but you can only have so many guys like that on a team before you start lacking in production.

 

David Eckstein is exactly what the Caridinals need...a cheap, non-terrible SS who's attitude they like. But if you start thinking that the only thing your team needs is more hustle...and forget that they have a couple guys, one of whom wears #5, that produce a hell of a lot of runs and can cover up for the deficiencies in other spots, then you're going to build a pretty crappy team.

 

The teams that Eckstein are on nearly always are "winning" teams. Sure, Jose Guillen, Kevin Brown or Milton Bradley or Soriano have a lot more talent, but why do they never find a home? You need talent and "winning" players coming together to make a team, Carl Everett is another example. Yeah, he had a lot of talent when he first came up to the bigs with the Marlins and Yankees, but leadership isn't to be discounted either.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

David Eckstein has always had trouble drawing walks, atleast that was the case when he played in the American League, not to tough to do that in the NL Central. He has the worst infield arm in the history of baseball as well as lackluster range, yeah he does hustle the guy's a grinder I wouldn't expect and less and Timo Perez and Scott Spezio also have 2 world series rings, so yeah I don't care. If you're going to pay a secondbaseman $5M a year I'll take Iguchi over Eck every day of the week.

 

not to turn this into a thread about david eckstein but this man has been overlooked his whole career and personally i think he would be a real solid 2nd baseman, even though he is a below average SS. also, eckstein isnt as bad offensively as you might think. now, if you are the kind of guy that only looks at OPS and SLG then you might think hes a terrible hitter but the guy is a .283 career hitter with a .351 OB compared to iguchi's .280/.347. plus, iguchi strikes out way too much as a #2 hitter for me. over 100 k's back to back years. eckstein really is a little pest at the plate and hardly ever K's. he's a damn tough out always fighting off pitches and making the pitchers work extra hard to get him out. thats the kind of thing that isnt always reflected in statistics but is a very, very important part of the game

[caulfield12]

First of all, your way off, more people were happy that we got Uribe and was excited about his potential. I loved Miles and so did most of the posters but we knew he wasn't our long term solution and was just a AAA player for us basically. And secondly, how in the hell would you know? You weren't even around here at the time. Other than that, I agree with you.

 

It was my recollection from chisox.com at that time. There were a lot of posters who closely followed the minors back then and made regular trips to BIRM as well as North Carolina to see White Sox prospects play.

Edited March 29, 2007 by caulfield12

[SoxAce]

He has the worst infield arm in the history of baseball as well as lackluster range, yeah he does hustle the guy's a grinder I wouldn't expect and less and Timo Perez and Scott Spezio also have 2 world series rings, so yeah I don't care.

 

God damn Kalapse..

 

It was my recollection from chisox.com at that time. There were a lot of posters who closely followed the minors back then and made regular trips to BIRM as well as North Carolina to see White Sox prospects play.

 

Ah, I gotcha. Thanks for clearing it up.

[RME JICO]

We can only hope, I wouldn't count on it though considering the age and major league experience of most of those pitchers as well as the fact that Erstad has found himself on the DL quite often over the past few seasons I'd venture to guess that most of that success came early in the pitcher's career.

Yes, that is all we can do at this point.

 

However, consider these numbers: 97, 61, 131, 65, and 137.

 

Those were the games played by Jermaine Dye the five seasons before joining the Sox with people questioning his health.

 

Using the previous five seasons before joining the Sox, Erstad had actually played in 44 more games than Dye over the five year span before joining the team.

 

So it seems that this "always injured" or "on the DL" perceptions are a little misleading.

Edited March 29, 2007 by RME JICO

[Rowand44]

I can only imagine a team with Eckstein and Erstad as the 1-2 hitters. Grinders!

That 2002 Angels squad was quite the joke.

 

I'm sorry, I stopped reading when you said Tad Iguchi is replaceable and Buehrle isn't. Right now, it seems like the exact opposite. We have guys in the minors who could somewhat replace Buehrle. We have no one and there's no one in FA who is going to be as good as Iguchi.

Have people seriously soured on Buehrle this freakin much after one bad season? I know the guy was bad last year but that doesn't erase the fact that he's been pretty damn good for 6 years. If he pitches like he did in 06 then he's obviously replaceable, if he pitches like he did anytime before that, he's going to be hard to replace.

 

*Awaits the "he doesn't throw 95" post*

Edited March 29, 2007 by Rowand44

[Kalapse]

not to turn this into a thread about david eckstein but this man has been overlooked his whole career and personally i think he would be a real solid 2nd baseman, even though he is a below average SS. also, eckstein isnt as bad offensively as you might think. now, if you are the kind of guy that only looks at OPS and SLG then you might think hes a terrible hitter but the guy is a .283 career hitter with a .351 OB compared to iguchi's .280/.347. plus, iguchi strikes out way too much as a #2 hitter for me. over 100 k's back to back years. eckstein really is a little pest at the plate and hardly ever K's. he's a damn tough out always fighting off pitches and making the pitchers work extra hard to get him out. thats the kind of thing that isnt always reflected in statistics but is a very, very important part of the game

That's actually pretty interesting.

 

Iguchi: 1066 | .280/.347/.430/.777 | 16.5 HR per season | 112K per season

 

Eckstein: 2201 AB | .278/.347/.353/.700 | 4 HR per season | 50K per season

 

Eckstein's American League numbers are shockingly similar to Iguchi's until you start getting into power numbers. Yes, Eckstein doesn't strike out much and that is a nice quality to have. In the field I'll take Iguchi without question, Eckstein couldn't make a throw from the hole or a quick toss to first on a double play to save his life. To call Eckstein 'terrible' was a poor choice of words, he's not, he's also a below average player in my opinion, not taking intangibles into consideration. In the end I'm taking Iguchi.

 

So it seems that this "always injured" or "on the DL" perceptions are a little misleading.

Then it needs to stop being used as some sort of excuse for why he hasn't produced at the plate since 2000. Just go to 670 The Score's website and listen to the past couple Steve Stone interviews, all he does is talk about how oft injured Erstad has been over the past 6 seasons saying now that he's finally healthy he'll begin to produce.

[caulfield12]

That's actually pretty interesting.

 

Iguchi: 1066 | .280/.347/.430/.777 | 16.5 HR per season | 112K per season

 

Eckstein: 2201 AB | .278/.347/.353/.700 | 4 HR per season | 50K per season

 

Eckstein's American League numbers are shockingly similar to Iguchi's until you start getting into power numbers. Yes, Eckstein doesn't strike out much and that is a nice quality to have. In the field I'll take Iguchi without question, Eckstein couldn't make a throw from the hole or a quick toss to first on a double play to save his life. To call Eckstein 'terrible' was a poor choice of words, he's not, he's also a below average player in my opinion, not taking intangibles into consideration. In the end I'm taking Iguchi.

 

And "intangibles" are the difference between a World Series and also-ran status of 90 wins. Many here seem to want to pin it all on Guillen (overusing bullpens and always relying on "matchups", Mackowiak/Anderson, pulling starters or not pulling them enough, using bench too much), but that's just one small slice of the entire story.

Edited March 29, 2007 by caulfield12

[RME JICO]

That's actually pretty interesting.

 

Iguchi: 1066 | .280/.347/.430/.777 | 16.5 HR per season | 112K per season

 

Eckstein: 2201 AB | .278/.347/.353/.700 | 4 HR per season | 50K per season

 

Eckstein's American League numbers are shockingly similar to Iguchi's until you start getting into power numbers. Yes, Eckstein doesn't strike out much and that is a nice quality to have. In the field I'll take Iguchi without question, Eckstein couldn't make a throw from the hole or a quick toss to first on a double play to save his life. To call Eckstein 'terrible' was a poor choice of words, he's not, he's also a below average player in my opinion, not taking intangibles into consideration. In the end I'm taking Iguchi.

 

 

Then it needs to stop being used as some sort of excuse for why he hasn't produced at the plate since 2000. Just go to 670 The Score's website and listen to the past couple Steve Stone interviews, all he does is talk about how oft injured Erstad has been over the past 6 seasons saying now that he's finally healthy he'll begin to produce.

I think Iguchi's numbers will also get better over time (more HR's, less K's). How many of those K's were after he took two strikes only to watch Pods stay at first?

[Kalapse]

That 2002 Angels squad was quite the joke.

Have people seriously soured on Buehrle this freakin much after one bad season? I know the guy was bad last year but that doesn't erase the fact that he's been pretty damn good for 6 years. If he pitches like he did in 06 then he's obviously replaceable, if he pitches like he did anytime before that, he's going to be hard to replace.

 

*Awaits the "he doesn't throw 95" post*

I think most people are just waiting for Buehrle to prove that the past 4 months of baseball have been a fluke. This is a make or break year for Mark and until he shows otherwise, the guy is very replaceable.

[witesoxfan]

David Eckstein has always had trouble drawing walks, atleast that was the case when he played in the American League, not to tough to do that in the NL Central. He has the worst infield arm in the history of baseball as well as lackluster range, yeah he does hustle the guy's a grinder I wouldn't expect any less. Timo Perez and Scott Spezio also have 2 world series rings, so yeah I don't care. If you're going to pay a secondbaseman $5M a year I'll take Iguchi over Eck every day of the week.

 

was waiting for that one

[Kalapse]

was waiting for that one

Timo will never know how much his 31 at bats with the Cardinals last year mean to me.

[witesoxfan]

Timo will never know how much his 31 at bats with the Cardinals last year mean to me.

 

I'm really just scared Detroit will call him up at some point this season. He'd wreak havoc.

[ScottyDo]

The teams that Eckstein are on nearly always are "winning" teams. Sure, Jose Guillen, Kevin Brown or Milton Bradley or Soriano have a lot more talent, but why do they never find a home? You need talent and "winning" players coming together to make a team, Carl Everett is another example. Yeah, he had a lot of talent when he first came up to the bigs with the Marlins and Yankees, but leadership isn't to be discounted either.

Didn't he get a ring with someone? I forget who....

[Kalapse]

I'm really just scared Detroit will call him up at some point this season. He'd wreak havoc.

Well he did have a 1.286 OPS against the Sox last year, so yes he should be thought of as a possible menace.

[Vance Law]

And "intangibles" are the difference between a World Series and also-ran status of 90 wins.

 

I would disagree and say giving up an entire run per game more is the difference. Tangibles.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

I think Iguchi's numbers will also get better over time (more HR's, less K's). How many of those K's were after he took two strikes only to watch Pods stay at first?

 

well not many last year considering pods was hardly ever on base...plus when you say iguchi's numbers will get better over time i'm not wholely convinced of that. He is 32 years old, so from a physical standpoint he is actually on the decline; however, as he continues to learn the AL pitchers and the league in general that should help him. but overall i don't expect him to do much more this year or any in the future that greatly exceed the results we have seen from him in his first 2 seasons with the sox.