Which Tribe players would actually start for us?

[jackie hayes]

2005 Got full-time at-bats; only hit .251; but he did get 76 walks; and hit 29 homeruns; not too bad

 

What, are you f***ing kidding?

[witesoxfan]

And "he'd make a great leadoff hitter for us". LOL. A little early for drinking on Sundays, isn't it??

 

Reality... he's Jason Michaels with a little more power, who can't hit as well for average, and has a lower OBP.

 

So does that mean that people that think Podsednik would be a great leadoff hitter are always blackout drunk?

 

and really, it's fine with Cleveland if Dellucci is Jason Michaels with a little more power, because Dellucci hits right handed pitching, Michaels hits lefties, and they have both of them.

[CWSGuy406]

2004 Got more walks, flashed a little power, still didn't hit well enough to play full-time

2005 Got full-time at-bats; only hit .251; but he did get 76 walks; and hit 29 homeruns; not too bad

2006 Had a 'career year' in 264 at-bats playing in the National League as Philadelphia's 4th outfielder

 

Let's look at it in more objective terms:

 

2004 - 94 OPS+

2005 - 128 OPS+

2006 - 125 OPS+

 

Pods over that same time:

 

2004 - 79 OPS+

2005 - 86 OPS+

2006 - 76 OPS+

 

So... looks like Delluci's WORST season over the past three years is still better than Podsednik's best season.

 

Oh, and the Michaels comparison is brutal, too. Michaels never flashed enough power for a long period of time to be a full-time player. Will Delluci's number fall a bit now that he's more of a full-time player? I'd expect that... but they'd have to fall a LONG way for him to be as awful as Podsednik.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Apr 1, 2007 -> 06:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, and the Michaels comparison is brutal, too. Michaels never flashed enough power for a long period of time to be a full-time player. Will Delluci's number fall a bit now that he's more of a full-time player? I'd expect that... but they'd have to fall a LONG way for him to be as awful as Podsednik.

I'm glad you've finally figured it out after I spent all of last season mentioning it.

 

"It's only 300 at-bats!"

[CWSGuy406]

I'm glad you've finally figured it out after I spent all of last season mentioning it.

 

"It's only 300 at-bats!"

 

Yeah, well, he's a good fourth OFer to have around and he's a perfect compliment for Delluci. But he became overexposed when facing that many righties, so yeah, I was a tad bit wrong.

[scenario]

Let's look at it in more objective terms:

 

2004 - 94 OPS+

2005 - 128 OPS+

2006 - 125 OPS+

 

Pods over that same time:

 

2004 - 79 OPS+

2005 - 86 OPS+

2006 - 76 OPS+

 

So... looks like Delluci's WORST season over the past three years is still better than Podsednik's best season.

 

Oh, and the Michaels comparison is brutal, too. Michaels never flashed enough power for a long period of time to be a full-time player. Will Delluci's number fall a bit now that he's more of a full-time player? I'd expect that... but they'd have to fall a LONG way for him to be as awful as Podsednik.

 

If OPS is your measure of success for a lead-off hitter, then you'd end up playing Dellucci ahead of several Hall of Fame lead-off guys. Bad idea.

[Gene Honda Civic]

If OPS is your measure of success for a lead-off hitter, then you'd end up playing Dellucci ahead of several Hall of Fame lead-off guys. Bad idea.

WTF is a hall-of-fame leadoff guy? I know you're not talking about Pods. That would be ludicrous.

 

There's really no such thing as a HOF leadoff guy, or at least there are zero modern representatives. The two best lead-off type guys of the last 25 years aren't in the Hall (Though they only become eligible in the next two years) Many don't think Raines is a deserving candidate. I'd say they're wrong, but nobody is dumb enough to suggest that Delucci would play over Raines... that is until you brought it up in a failed attempt to make a point.

[jackie hayes]

If OPS is your measure of success for a lead-off hitter, then you'd end up playing Dellucci ahead of several Hall of Fame lead-off guys. Bad idea.

Don't get carried away. Noone is suggesting they'd play Dellucci over Timo Perez.

[scenario]

WTF is a hall-of-fame leadoff guy? I know you're not talking about Pods. That would be ludicrous.

 

There's really no such thing as a HOF leadoff guy, or at least there are zero modern representatives. The two best lead-off type guys of the last 25 years aren't in the Hall (Though they only become eligible in the next two years) Many don't think Raines is a deserving candidate. I'd say they're wrong, but nobody is dumb enough to suggest that Delucci would play over Raines... that is until you brought it up in a failed attempt to make a point.

 

The point is simple. You DON'T have to hit for power to be a successful leadoff hitter.

 

Using OPS overweights power factors into the comparisons. That's why it's not relatively pointless to use in comparing leadoff guys.

 

What's the role of a leadoff hitter? Get on. Get over. Get into scoring position. Period.

 

That's why OBP is valuable. That's why steals are valuable.

 

I think it is utterly and completely LAUGHABLE that anyone who thinks they know anything about baseball would want Dellucci to lead off for us. Ridiculous.

[Kalapse]

Tim Raines: career 123 OPS+

Ricky Henderson: career 127 OPS+ (greatest leadoff hitter ever)

Barry Larkin: career 116 OPS+

 

Even Kenny Lofton is a 107 and Jose Reyes was a 118 last season. All of the guys listed above also had numerous seasons with OPS+ numbers much higher than the career number. It appears some of the best leadoff hitters of the past couple 20 years have had some pretty impressive OPS+ numbers.

 

What's the role of a leadoff hitter? Get on. Get over. Get into scoring position. Period.

Then wouldn't a leadoff hitter who could skip step 2 and already be in scoring position without having to steal a base be even more valuable? Hence someone with a more inflated SLG%. Singles and stolen bases are fun and all but someone who has a higher slugging percentage is in scoring position without having to go through all that crap and without risking outs like a speed guy with a s***ty SB% such as Podsednik would tend to do. I'll take a Jimmy Rollins over a Scott Podsednik every day of the week and like 6 more times on Sunday.

[witesoxfan]

The point is simple. You DON'T have to hit for power to be a successful leadoff hitter.

 

Using OPS overweights power factors into the comparisons. That's why it's not relatively pointless to use in comparing leadoff guys.

 

What's the role of a leadoff hitter? Get on. Get over. Get into scoring position. Period.

 

That's why OBP is valuable. That's why steals are valuable.

 

I think it is utterly and completely LAUGHABLE that anyone who thinks they know anything about baseball would want Dellucci to lead off for us. Ridiculous.

 

You're contradicting yourself. It is important for a leadoff hitter to be in scoring position, but to determine that, you have to look at stolen bases AND slugging percentage. Thus, OPS IS relevant and meaningful for leadoff hitters, and you've said as much without saying it directly.

[jackie hayes]

What's the role of a leadoff hitter? Get on. Get over. Get into scoring position. Period.

Not that I agree, but I'm wondering, is this the year Pods figures out how to do ANY of those?

 

Just because power's overweighted in OPS (and therefore in OPS+, too) doesn't make OPS irrelevant. Or, as you put it, "not relatively pointless" (?). Power's not bad anywhere. And referring to "Hall of Fame lead-off guys" is silly. Aparicio is a HOF leadoff man, but I'd be truly pissed if the Sox had a guy with his obp at the top of the order.

[ScottyDo]

WTF is a hall-of-fame leadoff guy? I know you're not talking about Pods. That would be ludicrous.

 

There's really no such thing as a HOF leadoff guy, or at least there are zero modern representatives. The two best lead-off type guys of the last 25 years aren't in the Hall (Though they only become eligible in the next two years) Many don't think Raines is a deserving candidate. I'd say they're wrong, but nobody is dumb enough to suggest that Delucci would play over Raines... that is until you brought it up in a failed attempt to make a point.

 

Ichiro

 

Tim Raines: career 123 OPS+

Ricky Henderson: career 127 OPS+ (greatest leadoff hitter ever)

Barry Larkin: career 116 OPS+

 

Even Kenny Lofton is a 107 and Jose Reyes was a 118 last season. All of the guys listed above also had numerous seasons with OPS+ numbers much higher than the career number. It appears some of the best leadoff hitters of the past couple 20 years have had some pretty impressive OPS+ numbers.

Then wouldn't a leadoff hitter who could skip step 2 and already be in scoring position without having to steal a base be even more valuable? Hence someone with a more inflated SLG%. Singles and stolen bases are fun and all but someone who has a higher slugging percentage is in scoring position without having to go through all that crap and without risking outs like a speed guy with a s***ty SB% such as Podsednik would tend to do. I'll take a Jimmy Rollins over a Scott Podsednik every day of the week and like 6 more times on Sunday.

Heh. That's a crappy comparison because I don't think anybody will ever argue that Pods is better than Rollins.

 

As far as Dellucci, however, it's certainly arguable that Pods is better. By the OPS+ logic we should put Crede in the leadoff spot. There are other considerations that go into the effectiveness of a leadoff man.

[witesoxfan]

Heh. That's a crappy comparison because I don't think anybody will ever argue that Pods is better than Rollins.

 

Then why are you arguing that Podsednik is better than Dellucci? The only thing Podsednik has ever done that Dellucci really hasn't is steal bases, and Podsednik didn't steal bases at anywhere close to a good clip last year.

 

As far as Dellucci, however, it's certainly arguable that Pods is better. By the OPS+ logic we should put Crede in the leadoff spot. There are other considerations that go into the effectiveness of a leadoff man.

 

How is it arguable? Stolen bases? Dellucci gets on at a better clip over his career, he has gotten on at a better clip recently, and he's in scoring position more often than Podsednik is. That's really all you can ask of a leadoff hitter, right?

 

And I don't understand what you're getting at by suggesting Crede, but there's no doubt in my mind at all that he'd be a better leadoff hitter than Podsednik simply because he'll score more runs. That's all you want out of your leadoff hitter, right?

[ScottyDo]

Then why are you arguing that Podsednik is better than Dellucci? The only thing Podsednik has ever done that Dellucci really hasn't is steal bases, and Podsednik didn't steal bases at anywhere close to a good clip last year.

How is it arguable? Stolen bases? Dellucci gets on at a better clip over his career, he has gotten on at a better clip recently, and he's in scoring position more often than Podsednik is. That's really all you can ask of a leadoff hitter, right?

 

And I don't understand what you're getting at by suggesting Crede, but there's no doubt in my mind at all that he'd be a better leadoff hitter than Podsednik simply because he'll score more runs. That's all you want out of your leadoff hitter, right?

Speed doesn't just get you from 1st to second on a stolen base, it gets you from first to third on a dribbler, it gets you from 2nd to home on a bouncer up the middle, and it gets you from first to home on a base hit...there are a lot of ways speed helps your ballclub, especially when the baseburners are on in front of people who hit for average and power.

 

That said, I'm not Pods' biggest fan, and I'd much rather we get an improvement somehow. I just don't think Dellucci is much of an answer.

 

Honestly, I'd like to see Iguchi there.

 

Then why are you arguing that Podsednik is better than Dellucci? The only thing Podsednik has ever done that Dellucci really hasn't is steal bases, and Podsednik didn't steal bases at anywhere close to a good clip last year.

I'm confused, are you saying Dellucci = Rollins? All I'm saying is, as a leadoff hitter, Rollins > everybody but Ichiro > Pods > Dellucci

[greg775]

A lot of their guys would start for the Sox cause we platoon so much everybody starts

a lot.

Sox need to suck it up and win this series.

1-2 or 0-3 will classify as a suck start considering we're playing a division rival at home.

[ScottyDo]

A lot of their guys would start for the Sox cause we platoon so much everybody starts

a lot.

Sox need to suck it up and win this series.

1-2 or 0-3 will classify as a suck start considering we're playing a division rival at home.

As far as I know we're only officially platooning CF and LF is mostly Podednik's. Yesterday was different because Pablo has such good numbers against Sabathia. I'd possibly concede LF as a platoon but other than that and OF, where are we platooning?

 

And I'm not gonna panic if we don't win this series, it's the first series of the year. Even if we get swept, it would suck but if you can't dig out of an 0-3 hole you don't stand a chance anyway.