Thoughts I Had on our Scouts/Hitting

[Gregory Pratt]

I'm not sure when I first noticed this and started to be bothered by it, but it really started to grate on me these last few days. I was at the game yesterday and I was talking to the person I was with and I said, "Damn, it has been a long time since we drafted someone like that -- or any impact player, at all," and I think it was in response to Sizemore homering.

 

I said, "Since Frank Thomas. Actually, it might've been Chris Young, come to think of it," and he said, "Oh I hope not!"

 

But I was thinking about it and here's our lineup.

 

Podsednik -- Not ours. Besides that, his hitting isn't something to be particularly proud of. I do wish he'd swing the bat more because he makes fair contact when he is swinging. If he looked to foul off close pitches and drive some more often he'd do so much better for himself, I think. All the same, we can't take much credit for his development.

Erstad -- Not ours. He came here knowing how to play.

Thome -- Not ours.

Konerko -- Not ours. I know we think of him as ours but he doesn't come from our system and I'm not sure we can take too much credit for successfully developing him.

Dye -- Not ours.

Crede -- Ours, but a. I think his year last year is something he'll be hard-pressed to match and b. he's not that great even with his year last year. I know we all appreciate Crede, but as fathom points out (or Kalapse), he'd be the fourth best third baseman in the NL East, and it took him, what, four years to get to this level?

Iguchi -- Not ours.

Uribe -- We can't take credit for his development. He has become more pull-happy than before, I think.

Pierzynski -- He isn't ours, either, but I think there's a real case to be made for us having changed him for the worse with our softball approach to hitting when he used to be a pesky linedrive hitter.

 

It goes to our pitching, too, but to a much lesser extent.

 

When your organization's best success at developing a player is Joe Crede, there's something seriously wrong unless you have the Yankees money, which we don't.

[RockRaines]

Konerko wasnt much when we traded for him, in fact he was a top spect who was basically thought to have been somewhat of a bust. With Cin and LA in 1998 he did absolutely jack s***.

 

Crede was ours, and he has developed into a pretty good impact 3B. At least a GGlover.

 

Uribe was a project when brought in, and still is.

[caulfield12]

I'm not sure when I first noticed this and started to be bothered by it, but it really started to grate on me these last few days. I was at the game yesterday and I was talking to the person I was with and I said, "Damn, it has been a long time since we drafted someone like that -- or any impact player, at all," and I think it was in response to Sizemore homering.

 

I said, "Since Frank Thomas. Actually, it might've been Chris Young, come to think of it," and he said, "Oh I hope not!"

 

But I was thinking about it and here's our lineup.

 

Podsednik -- Not ours. Besides that, his hitting isn't something to be particularly proud of. I do wish he'd swing the bat more because he makes fair contact when he is swinging. If he looked to foul off close pitches and drive some more often he'd do so much better for himself, I think. All the same, we can't take much credit for his development.

Erstad -- Not ours. He came here knowing how to play.

Thome -- Not ours.

Konerko -- Not ours. I know we think of him as ours but he doesn't come from our system and I'm not sure we can take too much credit for successfully developing him.

Dye -- Not ours.

Crede -- Ours, but a. I think his year last year is something he'll be hard-pressed to match and b. he's not that great even with his year last year. I know we all appreciate Crede, but as fathom points out (or Kalapse), he'd be the fourth best third baseman in the NL East, and it took him, what, four years to get to this level?

Iguchi -- Not ours.

Uribe -- We can't take credit for his development. He has become more pull-happy than before, I think.

Pierzynski -- He isn't ours, either, but I think there's a real case to be made for us having changed him for the worse with our softball approach to hitting when he used to be a pesky linedrive hitter.

 

It goes to our pitching, too, but to a much lesser extent.

 

When your organization's best success at developing a player is Joe Crede, there's something seriously wrong unless you have the Yankees money, which we don't.

 

The Yankees actually have done a great job developing and identifying players they wish to retain and trading the others for missing pieces. Heck, they got some real good arms for Sheffield even, especially Sanchez.

 

When you think of Cano, Soriano, Jeter, Posada, Bernie Williams, Cabrera, Philip Hughes, Pettitte, M. Rivera, Ted Lilly (I think he started with Montreal, but really took off in NYC), I'm sure that I am forgetting a few others.

 

The White Sox have done a GREAT job of identifying pieces from the minor league system that got them major league ready talent back in trade, such as Morse/Reed/Olivo for Freddy Garcia. Guerrier for Marte.

Uribe for Miles. They didn't give up too much to get Colon in 2003. Borchard for Thornton. Garland for Karchner.

 

Stockpiling money and signing the right FA's to take the place of Valentin, Ordonez and Lee.

 

You also can't say that KW has traded away someone you are really dying to get back, with the recent exceptions of Brandon McCarthy and Chris Young. I guess Tyler Lumsden too, but I don't see too many TL "watches" out there from posters here.

 

You also have Rowand and, of course, Buehrle.

 

When you look at Stumm, Dellaero, Honel, Malone, Rauch, Kip Wells, Royce Ring, Danny Wright, Joe Borchard, Brian West, Barcelo, Parque, Sirotka, Snyder...the disaster zone that has been our first round choices and "top prospects" the last 10-15 years, you would say it's a miracle the White Sox have been the #4 or #3 team in MLB total wins since 1990, right?

 

Which leads to the problem of being from very good to average/mediocre, which never gets you a high draft pick. Even then, the Twins picked Garza late in the first round and many expect him to be a top starter....we picked Broadway ahead of him. It's all about scouting. Fortunately, the White Sox could run a team and budget out there about $25-50 million ahead of the Twins or Indians or we'd have been in real trouble in 2005.

Edited April 6, 2007 by caulfield12

[NorthSideSox72]

I'm not sure when I first noticed this and started to be bothered by it, but it really started to grate on me these last few days. I was at the game yesterday and I was talking to the person I was with and I said, "Damn, it has been a long time since we drafted someone like that -- or any impact player, at all," and I think it was in response to Sizemore homering.

 

I said, "Since Frank Thomas. Actually, it might've been Chris Young, come to think of it," and he said, "Oh I hope not!"

 

But I was thinking about it and here's our lineup.

 

Podsednik -- Not ours. Besides that, his hitting isn't something to be particularly proud of. I do wish he'd swing the bat more because he makes fair contact when he is swinging. If he looked to foul off close pitches and drive some more often he'd do so much better for himself, I think. All the same, we can't take much credit for his development.

Erstad -- Not ours. He came here knowing how to play.

Thome -- Not ours.

Konerko -- Not ours. I know we think of him as ours but he doesn't come from our system and I'm not sure we can take too much credit for successfully developing him.

Dye -- Not ours.

Crede -- Ours, but a. I think his year last year is something he'll be hard-pressed to match and b. he's not that great even with his year last year. I know we all appreciate Crede, but as fathom points out (or Kalapse), he'd be the fourth best third baseman in the NL East, and it took him, what, four years to get to this level?

Iguchi -- Not ours.

Uribe -- We can't take credit for his development. He has become more pull-happy than before, I think.

Pierzynski -- He isn't ours, either, but I think there's a real case to be made for us having changed him for the worse with our softball approach to hitting when he used to be a pesky linedrive hitter.

 

It goes to our pitching, too, but to a much lesser extent.

 

When your organization's best success at developing a player is Joe Crede, there's something seriously wrong unless you have the Yankees money, which we don't.

 

Good points, though I disagree on Uribe (who this year looks a lot better than last at the plate) and Konerko (who really did do a lot of his growing here).

 

Its been said by multiple people here, our system doesn't seem to develop a lot of great hitters. If you look at the guys who put up gaudy averages in our minors over the last few years, there aren't many, few have stayed in our system to the majors (Crede and BA), others came in already trained (Gload), and there aren't many down there now doing it (maybe Sweeney or Rogo, but neither are considered top tier hitting prospects). Question is, is it the coaches that are bad, or does the team not draft/sign the right talent? Or both?

[caulfield12]

Good points, though I disagree on Uribe (who this year looks a lot better than last at the plate) and Konerko (who really did do a lot of his growing here).

 

Its been said by multiple people here, our system doesn't seem to develop a lot of great hitters. If you look at the guys who put up gaudy averages in our minors over the last few years, there aren't many, few have stayed in our system to the majors (Crede and BA), others came in already trained (Gload), and there aren't many down there now doing it (maybe Sweeney or Rogo, but neither are considered top tier hitting prospects). Question is, is it the coaches that are bad, or does the team not draft/sign the right talent? Or both?

 

I think you're forgetting Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Lee.

 

Oh, well.

 

Sweeney is still considered a top-tier hitting prospect, along with Fields.

 

Our drafting hasn't been great, but we've used a lot of our best minor league talent to get players for our major league roster, and it's hard to argue with the results, because we won a World Series using that philosophy. Long term, you, of course, need to develop 1-3 caliber starting pitchers in your own system, and that's been the big weakness of the Schueler/KW years, along with catching prospects.

 

We produced Jeremy Reed, Anthony Webster, Anderson, Chris Young and Aaron Rowand....that's five center fielders alone in the past 5-7 years.

 

We're somewhere between the #14-18 minor league organization in baseball right now, and we can really stockpile a ton of young talent if we trade away the core of our team...that's when KW will really earn his money and possibly lose his job 2-3 years from now.

 

 

 

I think you're forgetting Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Lee.

 

Oh, well.

 

Sweeney is still considered a top-tier hitting prospect, along with Fields.

 

Our drafting hasn't been great, but we've used a lot of our best minor league talent to get players for our major league roster, and it's hard to argue with the results, because we won a World Series using that philosophy. Long term, you, of course, need to develop 1-3 caliber starting pitchers in your own system, and that's been the big weakness of the Schueler/KW years, along with catching prospects.

 

We produced Jeremy Reed, Anthony Webster, Anderson, Chris Young and Aaron Rowand....that's five center fielders alone in the past 5-7 years.

 

We're somewhere between the #14-18 minor league organization in baseball right now, and we can really stockpile a ton of young talent if we trade away the core of our team...that's when KW will really earn his money and possibly lose his job 2-3 years from now.

 

Also, look at the Twins.

 

Lohse came from the Cubs

Liriano, Bonser and Nathan from the Giants

Silva from the Phillies

Santana was a Rule 5 pick

Ponson and Ortiz are stopgaps, until Garza, Perkins, Slowey and Baker are ready

 

You have to give them more credit for Rincon, Crain, Balfour and Neshek in the bullpen

 

None of their pitchers are home-grown, because at least Buehrle came through our system, and Garland was essentially a product of our system/organization as well.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think you're forgetting Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Lee.

 

Oh, well.

 

Sweeney is still considered a top-tier hitting prospect, along with Fields.

 

Our drafting hasn't been great, but we've used a lot of our best minor league talent to get players for our major league roster, and it's hard to argue with the results, because we won a World Series using that philosophy. Long term, you, of course, need to develop 1-3 caliber starting pitchers in your own system, and that's been the big weakness of the Schueler/KW years, along with catching prospects.

 

We produced Jeremy Reed, Anthony Webster, Anderson, Chris Young and Aaron Rowand....that's five center fielders alone in the past 5-7 years.

 

We're somewhere between the #14-18 minor league organization in baseball right now, and we can really stockpile a ton of young talent if we trade away the core of our team...that's when KW will really earn his money and possibly lose his job 2-3 years from now.

 

Note that I said "last few years". We developed Lee, Ordonez, Rowand and others in that group about a decade ago, under some different leadership. Of the names you just mentioned, only Young and Reed were developed in the "last few years", and so far Reed isn't showing much. We're talking about the organization at present, no? I was thinking 3 or 4 year time frame - typical development cycle for high end prospects.

[caulfield12]

Note that I said "last few years". We developed Lee, Ordonez, Rowand and others in that group about a decade ago, under some different leadership. Of the names you just mentioned, only Young and Reed were developed in the "last few years", and so far Reed isn't showing much. We're talking about the organization at present, no? I was thinking 3 or 4 year time frame - typical development cycle for high end prospects.

 

Reed, Young, Anderson and Webster still fit that cycle you just delineated.

 

That's the point, Reed was a reach in the second round (a great collegiate player without "projectable" tools or even a position, he also played 1B in college)....he became the minor league player on the year and was overrated by the Mariners.

 

He's always been a fourth outfielder or spare part, I even thought the same of Rowand too.

 

Morse never had a position and couldn't hit for enough power at 3B or LF, not enough range for SS.

 

Olivo, it will take too long to go into why trading him was the right move. He did okay in Florida last year, but he's never going to be an All-Star either. I wonder if A's would rather have Chad Bradford, or a World Series title, because Neal Cotts was one of the many contributors (along with Garcia, through Olivo) to that World Series win.

 

Not only that, but Beane traded Bonderman and Teahen away, let Jermaine Dye go (not to mention Tejada and Giambi) and got stuck watching an overvalued Loiaza pitch poorly after KW picked him up for nothing in the preseason of 2003.

[jackie hayes]

Konerko wasnt much when we traded for him, in fact he was a top spect who was basically thought to have been somewhat of a bust. With Cin and LA in 1998 he did absolutely jack s***.

That's a big overstatement. He had a bad rookie year, but he was listed by BA as the 2nd best prospect in all of baseball going into 1998. 200-odd abs won't drop you from #2 to bust.

[witesoxfan]

I think you're forgetting Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Lee.

 

and there's the answer(s) to Sir Pratt's question.

 

It's not usually a regular thing to develop a .900+ OPS players. The Sox developed those two in the late 90s/2000, but they are good players nonetheless.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

We're talking about the organization at present, no? I was thinking 3 or 4 year time frame - typical development cycle for high end prospects.

 

We won a championship during that timeframe, so whatever our scouts did must've worked...

[NorthSideSox72]

Reed, Young, Anderson and Webster still fit that cycle you just delineated.

 

That's the point, Reed was a reach in the second round (a great collegiate player without "projectable" tools or even a position, he also played 1B in college)....he became the minor league player on the year and was overrated by the Mariners.

 

He's always been a fourth outfielder or spare part, I even thought the same of Rowand too.

 

Morse never had a position and couldn't hit for enough power at 3B or LF, not enough range for SS.

 

Olivo, it will take too long to go into why trading him was the right move. He did okay in Florida last year, but he's never going to be an All-Star either. I wonder if A's would rather have Chad Bradford, or a World Series title, because Neal Cotts was one of the many contributors (along with Garcia, through Olivo) to that World Series win.

 

Not only that, but Beane traded Bonderman and Teahen away, let Jermaine Dye go (not to mention Tejada and Giambi) and got stuck watching an overvalued Loiaza pitch poorly after KW picked him up for nothing in the preseason of 2003.

Do you always have this much trouble reading before responding? I included Anderson in the first place. I specifically said players we developed and are still IN OUR SYSTEM. I left Webster off because I see nothing in his career thus far that shows him being a high end prospect and he hasn't been in our system since 2003, which is 4 years ago.

 

And why do you keep bringing up unrelated topics like pitchers and Billy Beane? I'm not saying KW is a bad GM. I'm saying our system doesn't produce a lot of strong HITTERS, which is what the thread title indicates. So in the last FEW years, we have the following HITTERS that we have "raised" in our system who have put up more than one year of gaudy offensive numbers in the minors...

 

--Anderson

--Reed

--Young

 

That's pretty much it, and Reed and Anderson seem to have only proven they aren't great hitters thus far (though BA really had just one half a lousy offensive season). Go further back and you get a bunch of course, including Crede, Lee, Ordonez, etc. But unless I am missing something, I don't see many great offensive talents coming out of the system in the last 3 to 4 years. If I am missing someone who fits that description, please point them out.

[caulfield12]

and there's the answer(s) to Sir Pratt's question.

 

It's not usually a regular thing to develop a .900+ OPS players. The Sox developed those two in the late 90s/2000, but they are good players nonetheless.

 

Or you can look at the late 80's/early 90's, when we brought Sosa, Thomas, Ventura, McDowell, Hibbard, Bere, Melido Perez, Alvarez, Radinsky through the system at roughly the same time.

[ShoeLessRob]

Wasn't Sizemore traded to the Indians?

[NorthSideSox72]

We won a championship during that timeframe, so whatever our scouts did must've worked...

How many offensive players on the 2005 team did we develop in our system? Let's list them...

 

--Rowand

--Crede

 

I believe that's it - 2 out of the 14 position players. And Rowand is not exactly an offensive powerhouse. So that's 1 player from the 2005 team that fits the criteria discussed - strong hitters that we developed internally.

 

Now, if you are talking about major league scouts, that is another discussion entirely.

[jackie hayes]

Wasn't Sizemore traded to the Indians?

Yes, good catch. With GP's avatar, he probably should've known that.

[caulfield12]

Do you always have this much trouble reading before responding? I included Anderson in the first place. I specifically said players we developed and are still IN OUR SYSTEM. I left Webster off because I see nothing in his career thus far that shows him being a high end prospect and he hasn't been in our system since 2003, which is 4 years ago.

 

And why do you keep bringing up unrelated topics like pitchers and Billy Beane? I'm not saying KW is a bad GM. I'm saying our system doesn't produce a lot of strong HITTERS, which is what the thread title indicates. So in the last FEW years, we have the following HITTERS that we have "raised" in our system who have put up more than one year of gaudy offensive numbers in the minors...

 

--Anderson

--Reed

--Young

 

That's pretty much it, and Reed and Anderson seem to have only proven they aren't great hitters thus far (though BA really had just one half a lousy offensive season). Go further back and you get a bunch of course, including Crede, Lee, Ordonez, etc. But unless I am missing something, I don't see many great offensive talents coming out of the system in the last 3 to 4 years. If I am missing someone who fits that description, please point them out.

 

 

And I'm saying it doesn't matter at all what we produce, as long as other organizations value our players and will give us a Carl Everett for a Webster and Frank Francisco (although Francisco might be a stud, if he gets through his injury problems and screws his head on straight).

 

We've always focused more on pitching than hitting with our drafts, because it's much easier to replace hitters than pitchers. Why did we win in 2005? Pitching, pitching, pitching.

 

Borchard is the big bust that was supposed to replace Thomas, and his failure set the organization back, no doubt about it.

 

Many GM's have proven you can put together so-so offenses with great pitching (Marlins, A's, Twins, Braves) and remain competitive. So I'm not worried at all about our position prospects. We didn't produce a catcher, we went out and got AJ and Hall without breaking the bank.

 

KW has proven to be much more capable of identifying undervalued major leaguers (Thornton, Loaiza, Contreras, Uribe, Marte, Everett, AJ, Iguchi, Dye, Hermanson, Politte...hopefully Aardsma and Masset) than he has been at drafting and developing stud prospects. That's one label that seems to stick in his craw, and he addressed it at SoxFest specifically.

 

Wasn't Sizemore traded to the Indians?

 

Colon for Sizemore, Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips (luckily they gave up on him one year too soon and rushed him to the big leagues or we'd be in even more trouble)

 

Not quite AJ for Nathan, Liriano and Bonser, but VERY close.

Edited April 6, 2007 by caulfield12

[fathom]

While I like this argument by G. Pratt, he kinds of shoots himself in the foot by talking about Sizemore being a home-grown player. I really wish we would have never traded Chris Young. He has so much more talent than Brian Anderson does.

[Gregory Pratt]

Yes, good catch. With GP's avatar, he probably should've known that.

 

I knew that. It just slipped my mind.

 

We produced Jeremy Reed, Anthony Webster, Anderson, Chris Young and Aaron Rowand....that's five center fielders alone in the past 5-7 years.

 

Only one of those guys is really worth much and the others are average if that.

 

I think you're forgetting Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Lee.

 

That is a great point. But as far as I can tell, they aren't exactly products of our minor leagues completely. They learned their own way in the Latin countries and of course we worked with them here, in our system, but neither of them is one of Our guys. Mid-average, loopy swing -- they had their own fabulous natural abilities.

[caulfield12]

I knew that. It just slipped my mind.

Only one of those guys is really worth much and the others are average if that.

That is a great point. But as far as I can tell, they aren't exactly products of our minor leagues completely. They learned their own way in the Latin countries and of course we worked with them here, in our system, but neither of them is one of Our guys. Mid-average, loopy swing -- they had their own fabulous natural abilities.

 

I'm sure the Latin American countries would love to take back Soriano, Cano, Cabrera, Mariano Rivera and Posada from the Yankees, lol.

[witesoxfan]

That is a great point. But as far as I can tell, they aren't exactly products of our minor leagues completely. They learned their own way in the Latin countries and of course we worked with them here, in our system, but neither of them is one of Our guys. Mid-average, loopy swing -- they had their own fabulous natural abilities.

 

...?

 

The White Sox signed Ordonez and Lee when they were 17.

 

They had talent, and the White Sox cultivated that talent into top players. I don't see how spending 8 years in the White Sox minor league system makes them non home grown talent.