Sox Loss Postgame Thread

[shoota]

I'm more lenient with blame on Podsednik, Jenks and our offense because these players are involved in a physical competition with opponents who are trying to beat them. Ozzie Guillen is not being physically challenged by an opponent; there's no resisting force stopping Guillen from making educated, premeditated personnel decisions to give his team the best chance of winning.

 

For him to fail at such a job when he has unquestioned authority leaves him solely to blame for his personnel choices.

 

The Sox offense failed many times over the game, yet still had the lead going into the bottom of the 9th inning. Jenks recorded a blown save and a loss, but had Erstad or BA been his left fielder, he likely could have gotten the save pitching exactly the same as he did in the loss. Guillen, a mi manera, he did it his way.

[Harry Chappas]

Yeah, I got your point. And I got it last night when Fathom and Kalapse said the same thing. Once again, I am not arguing that that is not the correct strategy in that situation. I'm arguing that Ozzie manages a team of human beings here and it's not quite as simple as a lot of people try to make it.

 

If you've ever managed people before, you know that there can be extraordinary benefits which come out of keeping your employees happy. I simply think Ozzie is trying to build Scottie's confidence up, and reward him for his solid play. The difference in the team Podsednik makes when he is playing well and he is confident is so huge as opposed to when he is struggling and beating himself down.

 

I know the vast majority of people will disagree (and most have already), but I'll take the once in a blue-moon blunder in the field by Scottie if he is stepping to the plate with confidence 600 times a season.

 

I believe the manager has to put his players in the best position to succeed. Guillen did not do that and failed at managing. If Jenks strikes out the side is Podsednik any more confident today, no. If Jenks forces him to make a play is he any more confident, no that is his job. If he is asked to save a game by doing something he is incapable of is he any more confident...........What is his confidence at right now. If the ball hit the top of the wall, no big deal. If the ball hit him in the head, well he can't be feeling to good. If Ozzie wanted to help his confidience, he should have pulled him. It was a no brainer choice.

 

What about Anderson's confidence? How happy do you think he is? If your talking about Ozzie managing people, he is a wind sock.

[iamshack]

What are you talking about, demoted? Its a defensive replacement. It happens all over baseball all over. Thank god we are not in the national league, or you would be upset if we pinch hit for the pitcher because it may bruise his ego.

 

Its a defensive replacement late in the game. He is not taking ABs away from Pods. How hard is this to understand.

 

You know what doesnt help with ones confidence, jumping up to catch a ball, landing, closing your eyes, and feeling an object that you know is the baseball smack you in the melon. Because if I am pods, stay away from ESPN highlights for the next week or so.

 

I'm going to just agree to disagree with you. Try managing or dealing with a staff and then get back to me. You can spout off about professionalism all you want. But there is an art to manipulating a group of human beings that is entirely lost on you. What might have hurt us strictly by bizarre chance last night might help us tenfold in the future by how Ozzie handles some of his players. How hard is that to understand?

[fathom]

I'm going to just agree to disagree with you. Try managing or dealing with a staff and then get back to me. You can spout off about professionalism all you want. But there is an art to manipulating a group of human beings that is entirely lost on you. What might have hurt us strictly by bizarre chance last night might help us tenfold in the future by how Ozzie handles some of his players. How hard is that to understand?

 

How is it a bizarre chance? There was a single to the left fielder in which he had a chance to throw out the runner. That play happens numerous times throughout baseball every single night.

[Pants Rowland]

I'm merely suggesting Ozzie is trying to get the best out of his players at times by rewarding them for their efforts, even when perhaps it is not the best strategy in that situation to win the game. And if that's truly the case, I support him in doing so.

 

Although I loved your reference to Ivan Drago's trainer, I am going to take exception to your overall point. I agree that sometimes you need to massage a player's ego in certain situations to boost his overall game. Pods does have a tendency to get down on himself and also take poor offense into the field with atrocious defense. However, Ozzie has more than rewarded Scotty with significant playing time thus far. To his credit, Pods has produced splendidly at the plate. If Ozzie really wants to keep Pods confidence up, he would have started him against CC and Johan as well. I doubt he was trying to massage his ego by leaving him in left last night. If anything, he jeopordized it with a new blooper for ComCast and ESPN to replay.

 

As bad as the big boppers have been thus far, I am encouraged that this could be a really nice season to watch with the table being set at the top and bottom of the order and a talented bullpen getting stronger as the season progesses. I also think the defense in the field and on the bench is going to be really solid, especially if Hall comes back healthy.

 

The fact is, players sometimes have bad nights. You keep running them out there to help them work through it. I am certain Ozzie will do that with Jenks after last night and keep his ego in tact. However, Ozzie did not give his team the best chance to win last night by keeping Pods in LF. If Pods' feelings would have been hurt by letting the defensive specialists close out the game with Bobby, then he is not the team player that Guillen adores.

[Reddy]

The Legend is here. Thanks to SouthsideSox.com

 

wow.

[iamshack]

How is it a bizarre chance? There was a single to the left fielder in which he had a chance to throw out the runner. That play happens numerous times throughout baseball every single night.

 

It's bizarre chance to me that in a game in which our other two pitchers limited the A's to a grand total of 3 hits over eight innings, Bobby manages to give up that within 5 minutes, including one to Scottie with a runner at second with two outs. What do you think the chances of that sequence of events happening as it did, honestly?

 

Now again, for the 400th time, I am not claiming the move you are suggesting was the wrong one strategically. But stuff happens. GET OVER IT. Jenks needs to pitch better. End of story.

[WCSox]

How is it a bizarre chance? There was a single to the left fielder in which he had a chance to throw out the runner. That play happens numerous times throughout baseball every single night.

 

But it shouldn't be relied on to bail out an anemic offense and poor relief pitching.

[Mr. Showtime]

How is it a bizarre chance? There was a single to the left fielder in which he had a chance to throw out the runner. That play happens numerous times throughout baseball every single night.

 

I saw the play last night and thought of you immediately, Fathom. The ball is going to find Pods in these kinds of situations, it's laughable.

[southsideirish71]

I'm going to just agree to disagree with you. Try managing or dealing with a staff and then get back to me. You can spout off about professionalism all you want. But there is an art to manipulating a group of human beings that is entirely lost on you. What might have hurt us strictly by bizarre chance last night might help us tenfold in the future by how Ozzie handles some of his players. How hard is that to understand?

 

Well I was a manager of a engineering team. I found that being honest with someone's skillset, and helping them develop as a person by not putting them in places where they have a higher probabilty to fail is a good way also. Not everyone is an expert at everything. Pods is not a defensive stud. In a 1-0 game its okay to replace him. If he doesnt understand that then he needs a shrink. I have had good people that have worked for me, that I have had to take a specific part of a project away, and give it to someone who has key technical knowledge in that area. Guess what, they were okay with it. And it motivated them to become better at that specific skill area. But then again maybe I should of taken a chance at shutting down my business because I didnt want to hurt one of my employees feelings.

[BigSqwert]

But it shouldn't be relied on to bail out an anemic offense and poor relief pitching.

But since our hitting is so anemic right now you have to rely on your best defense and pitching scenarios in order to give your team a fighting chance. Ozzie put in his best pitching option and that didn't work out. He did not utilize his best defensive options.

[fathom]

But since our hitting is so anemic right now you have to rely on your best defense and pitching scenarios in order to give your team a fighting chance. Ozzie put in his best pitching option and that didn't work out. He did not utilize his best defensive options.

 

If your offense is so anemic, then you better make sure you do everything you can in order to get a run home when you have a runner on 3rd, no outs in the 7th inning. That's the move that really irks me.

[StrangeSox]

No. And throughout this entire thread, not once have I suggested that I would have been upset had BA been subbed for defensive purposes. But unlike the tonesetters here, I refuse to blame every goddamned loss on Ozzie or Scott Podsednik.

 

This site is filled with armchair generals who know everything. On this site, God probably got second guessed for creating deserts in the early morning hours of the 5th day ("What the hell are we supposed to do with all this.....sand?").

 

It's a broken record, and it's lame. In my view, players have to be held accountable once in a while, and in this instance, that player is Bobby. He needs to wrap that game up and deliver it to Cooperstown. Instead, he gives up more hits than Garland and MacDougal gave up combined in 8 innings. This loss is on Bobby, and no one else.

 

Bobby made two pitches. One could have resulted in a play at the plate to get out the tying runner. The second should have been caught to send the game into overtime.

[iamshack]

Well I was a manager of a engineering team. I found that being honest with someone's skillset, and helping them develop as a person by not putting them in places where they have a higher probabilty to fail is a good way also. Not everyone is an expert at everything. Pods is not a defensive stud. In a 1-0 game its okay to replace him. If he doesnt understand that then he needs a shrink. I have had good people that have worked for me, that I have had to take a specific part of a project away, and give it to someone who has key technical knowledge in that area. Guess what, they were okay with it. And it motivated them to become better at that specific skill area. But then again maybe I should of taken a chance at shutting down my business because I didnt want to hurt one of my employees feelings.

 

Right, and all this is REALLY easy to say right now, after the fact. I wonder what you said after Scottie hit the homer in Game two. Because if it were up to you, you would have replaced him, and who knows what might have happened.

 

Again, the second guessing around here is a f'ing joke. To all the extreme armchair generals here, I want you to keep track, for one entire month, every move you would make in every one of our games. Type it in here, in real time, and allow us all to curse your pathetic ignorance everytime you are wrong or something doesn't happen as you thought it might.

[BigSqwert]

If your offense is so anemic, then you better make sure you do everything you can in order to get a run home when you have a runner on 3rd, no outs in the 7th inning. That's the move that really irks me.

I didn't watch last night's game but it sounds like the same old story. No situational hitting and home run swings. Walker should have been replaced a long time ago.

[StrangeSox]

Right, and all this is REALLY easy to say right now, after the fact. I wonder what you said after Scottie hit the homer in Game two. Because if it were up to you, you would have replaced him, and who knows what might have happened.

 

Again, the second guessing around here is a f'ing joke. To all the extreme armchair generals here, I want you to keep track, for one entire month, every move you would make in every one of our games. Type it in here, in real time, and allow us all to curse your pathetic ignorance everytime you are wrong or something doesn't happen as you thought it might.

 

 

Except its usually first-guessing Ozzie's managerial mishaps.

 

I didn't watch last night's game but it sounds like the same old story. No situational hitting and home run swings. Walker should have been replaced a long time ago.

 

 

They had a man on 3rd with no outs and couldn't get him in.

 

To be fair, the A's had the same situation.

[BigSqwert]

Except its usually first-guessing Ozzie's managerial mishaps.

So true. Most game threads have people question Guillen's moves (or non-moves) as they occur.

[hitlesswonder]

Right, and all this is REALLY easy to say right now, after the fact. I wonder what you said after Scottie hit the homer in Game two. Because if it were up to you, you would have replaced him, and who knows what might have happened.

 

Pods hit that homer in the 5th inning. It's ridiculous to say that wanting Pods replaced in the field in the 9th inning equates to wanting him replaced in the 5th.

 

Putting in defensive replacements in the 9th inning with a lead is a pretty standard managing practice. Ozzie has done it with Konerko in the past when Gload was on the team. It's not overly criticial to suggest that Ozzie should have had his best defensive outfield out there. Sure, the loss is due to the Sox anemic offense and Jenks pithcing poorly. But it's also due to terrible managing. Getting palyers to hit or pitch better is hard. Putting a better LF out there is easy. That's why people here are annoyed -- there was a simple move to make that would have increased the chances of victory and Ozzie failed to make it. I'm sure Ozzie is a better manager than I would be, but he screwed up last night.

Edited April 11, 2007 by hitlesswonder

[iamshack]

Pods hit that homer in the 5th inning. It's ridiculous to say that wanting Pods replaced in the field in the 9th inning equates to wanting him replaced in the 5th.

 

Putting in defensive replacements in the 9th inning with a lead is a pretty standard managing practice. Ozzie has done it with Konerko in the past when Gload was on the team. It's not overly criticial to suggest that Ozzie should have had his best defensive outfield out there. Sure, the loss is due to the Sox anemic offense and Jenks pithcing poorly. But it's also due to terrible managing. Getting palyers to hit or pitch better is hard. Putting a better LF out there is easy. That's why people here are annoyed -- there was a simple move to make that would have increased the chances of victory and Ozzie failed to make it. I'm sure Ozzie is a better manager than I would be, but he screwed up last night.

 

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. I was referring to Game two of the World Series, in which a very similar sequence of events occurred.

Edited April 11, 2007 by iamshack

[BigSqwert]

Pods hit that homer in the 5th inning. It's ridiculous to say that wanting Pods replaced in the field in the 9th inning equates to wanting him replaced in the 5th.

 

Putting in defensive replacements in the 9th inning with a lead is a pretty standard managing practice. Ozzie has done it with Konerko in the past when Gload was on the team. It's not overly criticial to suggest that Ozzie should have had his best defensive outfield out there. Sure, the loss is due to the Sox anemic offense and Jenks pithcing poorly. But it's also due to terrible managing. Getting palyers to hit or pitch better is hard. Putting a better LF out there is easy. That's why people here are annoyed -- there was a simple move to make that would have increased the chances of victory and Ozzie failed to make it. I'm sure Ozzie is a better manager than I would be, but he screwed up last night.

Nicely stated.

[StrangeSox]

Pods hit that homer in the 5th inning. It's ridiculous to say that wanting Pods replaced in the field in the 9th inning equates to wanting him replaced in the 5th.

 

Putting in defensive replacements in the 9th inning with a lead is a pretty standard managing practice. Ozzie has done it with Konerko in the past when Gload was on the team. It's not overly criticial to suggest that Ozzie should have had his best defensive outfield out there. Sure, the loss is due to the Sox anemic offense and Jenks pithcing poorly. But it's also due to terrible managing. Getting palyers to hit or pitch better is hard. Putting a better LF out there is easy. That's why people here are annoyed -- there was a simple move to make that would have increased the chances of victory and Ozzie failed to make it. I'm sure Ozzie is a better manager than I would be, but he screwed up last night.

 

 

Someone else touched on this point and I think its an excellent one. Its not easy to get a guy to get a hit or to get Jenks to throw in the upper 90's. It's very, very easy to replace a poor defender with a much better option off the bench in late innings in a close game.

[Pants Rowland]

Last year the offense was great in lopsided games. However, the sox lost a handful (at least 3, as many as 5 or maybe even more) of games due to poor OF defense. They also were very average in one-run affairs. They also lost a playoff spot by 5 games.

 

Baseball is a game of inches and every little thing that we try to dismiss as irrelevant typically matters over the course of a season. Even the best lineups have to play tight low-scoring affairs. It is the championship teams that find ways to win when the offense has a down night or the closer is missing his fastball.

 

Last night was a a classic example of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. I commend Bobby for accepting the blame for the loss, but I believe Guillen put his team in a less favorable position to win the game. They could have overcome Bobby's pitching last night.

[StrangeSox]

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. I was referring to Game two of the World Series, in which a very similar sequence of events occurred.

 

That's an anomaly that worked out. Otherwise, you can use that example to say that managers should never use defensive replacements because the starter *might* have a productive AB later.

 

It was a move that should have been made.

[southsideirish71]

Right, and all this is REALLY easy to say right now, after the fact. I wonder what you said after Scottie hit the homer in Game two. Because if it were up to you, you would have replaced him, and who knows what might have happened.

 

Again, the second guessing around here is a f'ing joke. To all the extreme armchair generals here, I want you to keep track, for one entire month, every move you would make in every one of our games. Type it in here, in real time, and allow us all to curse your pathetic ignorance everytime you are wrong or something doesn't happen as you thought it might.

 

We make our comments in chat, thats in realtime. Maybe someday you can join us, and enlighten us on the hug-the-bear method of managing.

[iamshack]

That's an anomaly that worked out. Otherwise, you can use that example to say that managers should never use defensive replacements because the starter *might* have a productive AB later.

 

It was a move that should have been made.

 

Yeah, and Jenks shouldn't have given up three hits in the first place.

 

I can argue all day long with you. It's bs to just b**** and moan about certain players or a manager but not others because you don't happen to like them. It started and ended with Bobby, and he even said so himself.