33 Dead After Virginia Tech University Shooting

[IlliniKrush]

The more I think about, the more I agree with the course of action that the school took.

 

Was there any reason for them to believe that the first incident was anything but an isolated case? Why would they shut down this whole campus and incite this big panic before they could figure out the details of the case? U of I doesn't shut down every time there's an armed robbery (and there was 5 just the other weekend).

 

A city doesn't shut down and alert every one within minutes or even hours every time a murder happens. Given the size of the school, its much like its own city.

5 armed robberies? What places?

 

Getting back on topic, until you have a gunman and you maybe understand the motive, you need to do something besides keep people in the dark. People can say they don't want people running around outside, but walking around outside and entering classes is putting people in harms way. They'll take every single precaution after the 2nd shooting, including arresting people of the media, apparently, and locking people in class rooms for 3 hours, but after a shooting in a dorm and you have no idea who did it, business as usual? I can't see how they were flawless here.

[StrangeSox]

5 armed robberies? What places?

 

Getting back on topic, until you have a gunman and you maybe understand the motive, you need to do something besides keep people in the dark. People can say they don't want people running around outside, but walking around outside and entering classes is putting people in harms way. They'll take every single precaution after the 2nd shooting, including arresting people of the media, apparently, and locking people in class rooms for 3 hours, but after a shooting in a dorm and you have no idea who did it, business as usual? I can't see how they were flawless here.

 

http://media.www.dailyillini.com/media/sto...e-2827478.shtml

 

Flawless, no. Especially in hindsight. But are they supposed to shut down whats essentially a small city due to what they believed at the time was an isolated incident? Does Chicago shut down several square miles and evacuate the area every time there's a shooting?

 

After the second incident, you had 30 people dead and more wounded. Of course you'll take every precaution in that case.

Edited April 17, 2007 by StrangeSox

[maggliopipe]

Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said the scene at Norris was “probably one of the worst things I’ve seen in my life."

 

I guess this dude's lived a pretty tough life if this doesn't make the top of the 'worst things i've ever seen' list.

 

I still think it's absolutely unacceptable that there wasn't more urgency to get word out to campus. Flood email inboxes, flood the campus with security and police, put up road blocks, have RA's alert the residents what's going on if they're asleep and haven't checked their email... Those are four extremely simple measures that should have been common practice after 2 people on a college campus are murdered. I don't buy the analogy of a college campus being like a city in itself. Cities aren't interconnected via email. Cities don't have RA's looking over residents. And I really don't think this is hindsight. This should have been common sense. Hell, even if the second incident hadn't happened and you're a parent of a VA Tech kid, aren't you pissed off that more extreme measures weren't taken?

[mr_genius]

This is very tragic. Horrible.

 

very disturbing, obviously.

[Texsox]

Let's put this into perspective regarding lock downs etc. With staff, the campus population is approximately the size of Highland Park, Niles, Northbrook, or Oak Forest. Do you really expect the police to lock down those cities if they come upon what looks to be a domestic murder? Can you imagine the reaction from local businesses?

[IlliniKrush]

Let's put this into perspective regarding lock downs etc. With staff, the campus population is approximately the size of Highland Park, Niles, Northbrook, or Oak Forest. Do you really expect the police to lock down those cities if they come upon what looks to be a domestic murder? Can you imagine the reaction from local businesses?

IMO, you are comparing apples and oranges.

 

Canceling classes and keeping kids in dorms/apts/wherever isn't the same as closing local businesses or whatever else you want to do. Not to mention that the population, while as big, isn't as spread out as any of those listed towns, making it much easier to contact all involved.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, but there have been school shootings all over the place in recent years. When 2 or more people are murdered in a dorm room and the gunman isn't caught, that means someone, likely a college student IMO, is out there with a gun and has the potential to harm others. Might as well be careful in this situation.

 

If I were a student I would have expected to wake up to an email telling me there was a murder in a local dorm, we have no idea where this guy with a gun is nor what he might want to accomplish, so don't bother going to class and stay where you are. Something that simple. If nothing else happens, you missed a day of classes. If not, well...

[Jordan4life_2007]

After Columbine, this stuff just isn't shocking anymore.

[mr_genius]

IMO, you are comparing apples and oranges.

 

Canceling classes and keeping kids in dorms/apts/wherever isn't the same as closing local businesses or whatever else you want to do. Not to mention that the population, while as big, isn't as spread out as any of those listed towns, making it much easier to contact all involved.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, but there have been school shootings all over the place in recent years. When 2 or more people are murdered in a dorm room and the gunman isn't caught, that means someone, likely a college student IMO, is out there with a gun and has the potential to harm others. Might as well be careful in this situation.

 

If I were a student I would have expected to wake up to an email telling me there was a murder in a local dorm, we have no idea where this guy with a gun is nor what he might want to accomplish, so don't bother going to class and stay where you are. Something that simple. If nothing else happens, you missed a day of classes. If not, well...

 

I agree.

[whitesoxin']

After going through a slashing where 7 kids were injured, I can't imagine what it would be like on a campus where a gunman killed 33. This stuff just sickens me.

[StrangeSox]

IMO, you are comparing apples and oranges.

 

Canceling classes and keeping kids in dorms/apts/wherever isn't the same as closing local businesses or whatever else you want to do. Not to mention that the population, while as big, isn't as spread out as any of those listed towns, making it much easier to contact all involved.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, but there have been school shootings all over the place in recent years. When 2 or more people are murdered in a dorm room and the gunman isn't caught, that means someone, likely a college student IMO, is out there with a gun and has the potential to harm others. Might as well be careful in this situation.

 

If I were a student I would have expected to wake up to an email telling me there was a murder in a local dorm, we have no idea where this guy with a gun is nor what he might want to accomplish, so don't bother going to class and stay where you are. Something that simple. If nothing else happens, you missed a day of classes. If not, well...

 

Should have sent a note canceling classes "due to an incident, details to be released later, remain indoors."

 

But its still not all that easy to contact 30000+ people. Plenty of people don't check their emails or are away from their computers, especially during those times of day. Many students and professors would have carried on their day as usual and headed to class.

 

And the population is still spread out pretty far, at least here. Campus itself is several square miles, and the size of area where most students live is pretty big. You're probably talking a 5 mile radius from the center of campus. That's a huge area.

Edited April 17, 2007 by StrangeSox

[Flash Tizzle]

Should have sent a note canceling classes "due to an incident, details to be released later, remain indoors."

 

But its still not all that easy to contact 30000+ people. Plenty of people don't check their emails or are away from their computers, especially during those times of day. Many students and professors would have carried on their day as usual and headed to class.

 

And the population is still spread out pretty far, at least here. Campus itself is several square miles, and the size of area where most students live is pretty big. You're probably talking a 5 mile radius from the center of campus. That's a huge area.

Virginia Tech's main campus in Blacksburgh is several thousand acres. There are over thirty buildings. A note nor an email could have altered all students.

 

As we discussed earlier, outside of a siren system or intercoms installed in every building on campasses you just can't prevent an act such as today.

 

One reason I'm holding off criticism of the university and its campus police is we're not entirely sure about details surrounding the original dorm shooting. Officials may have felt everything was secure because maybe the shooter planted a weapon on one of the two victims. There was apparently a man and women killed; this was originally labeled a "domestic" situation.

[IlliniKrush]

Should have sent a note canceling classes "due to an incident, details to be released later, remain indoors."

 

But its still not all that easy to contact 30000+ people. Plenty of people don't check their emails or are away from their computers, especially during those times of day. Many students and professors would have carried on their day as usual and headed to class.

 

And the population is still spread out pretty far, at least here. Campus itself is several square miles, and the size of area where most students live is pretty big. You're probably talking a 5 mile radius from the center of campus. That's a huge area.

A note would have done serious damage, I believe.

 

Sure not everyone checks their emails, but I think the vast majority of students do when they wake up, before they had to class. Maybe i'm wrong. Furthermore, I think word of mouth, on a college campus, has the power to reach many of these people who otherwise wouldn't get the message.

 

UIUC is big, but it's not unreachable. A vast majority of the students live between the 6 pack and springfield and 1st and wright in that huge block. Word could travel pretty fast with the help of email or other notification systems, as people have mentioned. I am not familiar with VT, and obviously campuses across the nation are quite different.

 

Nothing would have worked perfectly, but I think it could have helped in certain instances. It's hard to think about a possible fact that some of the people who died were attending their first class of the day after this first shooting occured. If I were a parent, I'd sure be looking for answers. Hell if I was a student that survived in this situation, I'd be wondering why I was sitting in a class room at that point.

 

This will likely change the way colleges handle situations, and things may be overblown here or there, but I don't see a huge downside to taking proper (if not extreme, if that's how you want to look at it) caution.

Edited April 17, 2007 by IlliniKrush

[Flash Tizzle]

A note would have done serious damage, I believe.

 

Sure not everyone checks their emails, but I think the vast majority of students do when they wake up, before they had to class. Maybe i'm wrong. Furthermore, I think word of mouth, on a college campus, has the power to reach many of these people who otherwise wouldn't get the message.

 

UIUC is big, but it's not unreachable. A vast majority of the students live between the 6 pack and springfield and 1st and wright in that huge block. Word could travel pretty fast with the help of email or other notification systems.

 

Nothing would have worked perfectly, but I think it could have helped in certain instances. It's hard to think about a possible fact that some of the people who died were attending their first class of the day after this first shooting occured. If I were a parent, I'd sure be looking for answers. Hell if I was a student that survived in this situation, I'd be wondering why I was sitting in a class room at that point.

 

This will likely change the way colleges handle situations, and things may be overblown here or there, but I don't see a huge downside to taking proper (if not extremes, if that's how you want to look at it) caution.

You're basing your entire premise off of the original shooting, and the assumption campus and local police were aware a potential murderer was on the loose.

 

Again, if the initial investigation gave the impression that maybe one of the victims shot another and then shot themself, there's nothing anyone could have done.

 

Just imagine for a second if the first shooting incident never happened. That there was no prior warning of anything. If someone is shooting students on the other side of campus -- a large one, at that -- a note or email won't do anything. This is just the reality of the situation. In real time, which most shootings are, it's difficult to warn anyone without a campus wide system.

[jackie hayes]

This makes no sense to me. If something looks like domestic violence, you don't expect the shooter to go on a carefully thought-out killing spree in a classroom building. There's just no connection. (Assuming, of course, that this is the same guy.)

[StrangeSox]

This makes no sense to me. If something looks like domestic violence, you don't expect the shooter to go on a carefully thought-out killing spree in a classroom building. There's just no connection. (Assuming, of course, that this is the same guy.)

 

That's the argument -- they thought the dorm incident was an isolated domestic violence incident during the initial stages. Maybe murder-suicide or something. So, given that, they couldn't expect the situation in the classrooms.

 

This will likely change the way colleges handle situations, and things may be overblown here or there, but I don't see a huge downside to taking proper (if not extreme, if that's how you want to look at it) caution.

 

I think that's what we need to get out of this. Learn our lessons from the terrible tragedy and try to improve the system.

 

But if you've got an armed, suicidal maniac on the loose, its going to be hard to stop him or her without deadly force.

[FlaSoxxJim]

This makes no sense to me. If something looks like domestic violence, you don't expect the shooter to go on a carefully thought-out killing spree in a classroom building. There's just no connection. (Assuming, of course, that this is the same guy.)

 

Agreed, there was no indication that the shooter wasn't going to stop with the domestic incident. Domestic shootings like the first incident seemed to be are, sadly, not uncommon. But how many of those develop into a random murder spree such that the authorities here could have predicted it?

[Be Good]

May God bless everyone involved.

[Flash Tizzle]

This makes no sense to me. If something looks like domestic violence, you don't expect the shooter to go on a carefully thought-out killing spree in a classroom building. There's just no connection. (Assuming, of course, that this is the same guy.)

It's hardly unreasonable for the killer to shoot both victims, perhaps plant a gun, and hope that all the attention drawn to the incident wouldn't extend beyond those in the room.

 

Then, several hours afterwards, have an opportunity to continue shooting others with the perception of additional time afforded to him.

 

I'm just speculating here, really. From my perspective, as criminology major, I've read several cases where an individual attempts odd diversion tactics to buy extra time. One noteable example is Derrick Klebold and Eric Harris setting off a timed, home made explosive to draw the attention of Littleton fire and police officials.

 

Hell, the bomb threats reported earlier in the week may have been the shooter examining the response time of campus police.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[jackie hayes]

Agreed, there was no indication that the shooter wasn't going to stop with the domestic incident. Domestic shootings like the first incident seemed to be are, sadly, not uncommon. But how many of those develop into a random murder spree such that the authorities here could have predicted it?

I wonder how random this was, though. The guy seemed to have a plan. Going as far as chaining the doors? Christ... That's pretty sick.

[StrangeSox]

It's random from our perspective (and the police and administration's perspective), in that there's no way for us to have seen this coming. Not necessarily that it was unplanned.

Edited April 17, 2007 by StrangeSox

[jackie hayes]

It's hardly unreasonable for the killer to shoot both victims, perhaps plant a gun, and hope that all the attention drawn to the incident wouldn't extend beyond those in the room.

 

Then, several hours afterwards, have an opportunity to continue shooting others with the perception of additional time afforded to him.

 

I'm just speculating here, really. From my perspective, as criminology major, I've read several cases where an individual attempts odd diversion tactics to buy extra time. One noteable example is Derrick Klebold and Eric Harris setting off a timed, home made explosive to draw the attention of Littleton fire and police officials.

 

Hell, the bomb threats reported earlier in the week may have been the shooter examining the response time of campus police.

Okay, it's conceivable. And in 24, it's conceivable that a terrorist organization would set up a minor distraction to lure law enforcement away from the upcoming nuclear blast. But it's not predictable, and that's key. It's not a normal pattern. Almost any noticeable event could be a distraction -- should a campus be shut down for any surprising event?

[Flash Tizzle]

Okay, it's conceivable. And in 24, it's conceivable that a terrorist organization would set up a minor distraction to lure law enforcement away from the upcoming nuclear blast. But it's not predictable, and that's key. It's not a normal pattern. Almost any noticeable event could be a distraction -- should a campus be shut down for any surprising event?

Since when does crime have to be predictable? Not every crime fits a model, or suspect a profile.

 

And to address your other question, no -- a campus should not be shut down for any surprising event. In the circumstance here of a double murder -- perhaps a murder/suicide -- the police can only assume what's available to them. If all available evidence suggested it was as an "isolated incident," there would have been no reason to shut down the entire campus.

[jackie hayes]

Since when does crime have to be predictable? Not every crime fits a model, or suspect a profile.

 

And to address your other question, no -- a campus should not be shut down for any surprising event. In the circumstance here of a double murder -- perhaps a murder/suicide -- the police can only assume what's available to them. If all available evidence suggested it was as an "isolated incident," there would have been no reason to shut down the entire campus.

I never said a crime has to fit any model. My only point is that the admin/police cannot be blamed for not shutting down the campus when they had no way of anticipating such a sequel. So I'm not really certain what this argument is about.

[Flash Tizzle]

I never said a crime has to fit any model. My only point is that the admin/police cannot be blamed for not shutting down the campus when they had no way of anticipating such a sequel. So I'm not really certain what this argument is about.

I was wondering the same thing about your post.

 

I agree -- based upon the information we have, not much could have been done.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[jackie hayes]

I was wondering the same thing about your post.

 

I agree -- based upon the information we have, not much could have been done.

Sorry if I was unclear. I'm just trying to understand those who say that the administration should have done more.